Guest guest Posted May 24, 2000 Report Share Posted May 24, 2000 Hi Bob I am in involved in the continuing education fro ther New Zealand acupunctue registar.Your weekend course on LSZ's pulse sounds interesting.Could you email me (below) if you would be interested in doing that workshop here in NZ . Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2000 Report Share Posted May 24, 2000 Heiko, Sure, I'd be happy to teach in NZ again, and I love teaching my weekend pulse course. Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one understands the precise implications of the Chinese words. I do have a standing invite to Oz. The last time I taught in that part of the world, I did one weekend in Aukland and three in Oz. That would be the way I would want to do it again, or something relatively similar. NZ and Australia are way to far to go for a single weekend workshop. My fee for 2001 is $1,500 per day of teaching plus room and board for three nights and roundtrip travel expenses split between however many venues I can arrange as a single South Pacific " tour. " Our graphics department is happy to create advertising fliers, ads, or brochures to your specs (i.e., your paper size) if you want that. That's included in my fees. Let me know what you think. Sincerely, Bob > [Original Message] > heiko <heiko > > 05/24/2000 3:02:09 AM > Re: message for Flaws > > Hi Bob > I am in involved in the continuing education fro ther New Zealand acupunctue > registar.Your weekend course on LSZ's pulse sounds interesting.Could you > email me (below) if you would be interested in doing that workshop here in > NZ . > > Heiko Lade > Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist > 2 Jenkins St. > Green Island, Dunedin > New Zealand > Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 > http://www.lade.com/heiko > Email: heiko > > > ------ > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here: > http://click./1/4054/9/_/542111/_/959158927/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2000 Report Share Posted May 24, 2000 Bob, I'll bite. >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one understands > the precise implications of the Chinese words. What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the course of one weekend? If this is true, why does training last so much longer in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the rush? In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed into a short course? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2000 Report Share Posted May 25, 2000 Ken, It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear about the exact definitions of those labels. To then interpret what these labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, training, and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine or large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed way. The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. The course I teach is basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level education. Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because they do not feel confident in what they learned. Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the opportunity? Yes, you bet. For instance, anyone who is well enough to get themselves to a weekend seminar (often by flying a thousand miles or more) and sitting through 14 hours of class can't be too ill. Therefore, in terms of practical experience, we can only expect to feel a certain limited group of pulse images in such a setting. As Z'ev said, in order to feel the more unusual combination pulses, such as the scattered pulse, you have to see acutely or seriously ill patients. Some of the ways to work with this situation are to arrange trips to the community hospital with sympathetic doctors. (Having access to a teaching hospital for clinic is what's so exciting about a program such as Mercy College's in NY.) In my experience, sometimes you can set up pulse examination (NOT DIAGNOSIS) tables at health food stores and health fairs to try to capture a wider range of the public's pulses. One still is only going to feel the pulses of the ambulatory, but you do get to feel segments of the public who are not so likely to show up in your school's student clinic. You could also take pulses at your local homeless shelter, senior center, and hospice. However, that being said, I believe you can establish a sound foundation in pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, strength, and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher in a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to follow. Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. Bob > [Original Message] > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > Re: message for Flaws > > Bob, > > I'll bite. > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > understands > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > course of one weekend? > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > rush? > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > into a short course? > > Ken > > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2000 Report Share Posted May 25, 2000 I have to say (being in the middle of this whole thing, current student at PCOM) it is not as easy as one might believe. I will say that it is easy for 1 practitioner to teach his/her 'simple' watered down style (i.e. Bob's basic pulses), but: The reality is: 1) People cannot even agree with the basic pulse quality definitions (especially I have noticed a big difference in the westerners vs. Asian, on simple pulses like tight. We currently have a well-respected instructor from China teaching our pulse class and his definitions straight from the Chinese text book used (in China) are much different than what our Western trained supervisors know/teach and what Flaws has in his book, and especially Giovanni's so-called books...) 2) Even if one clarifies the definition each practitioner will tell you something different. (i.e. even something as simple as depth I have seen finding great debate. Tight is also debated all the time. Others: One person says wiry, another tight, another says xu wiry , another says there is no such thing as xu wiry it must have strength. Same thing with slippery, it must be forceful, then you hear it is a xu slippery. Etc. etc... Then on the chart Wiry is written, what does that mean then? 3) Once everyone agrees on what they feel, what it means is still just as puzzling. 4) Finally back to the topic of translation... the if you're learning from westerners, or if a translation of a text is involved, be weary. I am currently studying the Jin Gui Yao Lue (prescriptions from the Golden Chamber) and our teacher is reading straight from the Chinese text. Our (English) translation is atrocious, there are blatant pulse errors, interpretation errors (of the pulses), and not to mention others. Pulse even becomes more confusing when you jump slightly out of the realm of 'standard definition' (what ever that means). You have people that intuitively/or through experience start to pick up on a much deeper aspect of diagnosis (emotional aspects.) I went to a pulse workshop with Dr. Wei-Yen Chang and he had a completely different system he developed based on traditional Oriental medicine and his 25+ years of experience in Taiwan, and his results were absolutely amazing. He would walk around the audience and feel people's pulses for about 10-15 seconds and would tell the person things like " oh... you have gallstones " and he would be right. I believe ancient pulse masters were doing things like this but to try to teach to the average person they had to try to systematize and water down their system (?). I know, I know nothing; I have only been doing pulse for a couple of years. I am just commenting on what I have seen in the process. I do think pulse is very important, and I have spent quite sometime trying to decipher it. I do believe that it takes a minimum of ten years to become proficient at it. One of the big things I'm trying to work on it is what Bob flaws wrote about in one of his posts. What each pulse quality means in each position, what is a good source text for this? Any suggestions or help from the group would be appreciated. -Jason Robert Flaws [bobflaws] Thursday, May 25, 2000 8:29 AM Re: message for Flaws Ken, It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear about the exact definitions of those labels. To then interpret what these labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, training, and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine or large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed way. The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. The course I teach is basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level education. Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because they do not feel confident in what they learned. Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the opportunity? Yes, you bet. For instance, anyone who is well enough to get themselves to a weekend seminar (often by flying a thousand miles or more) and sitting through 14 hours of class can't be too ill. Therefore, in terms of practical experience, we can only expect to feel a certain limited group of pulse images in such a setting. As Z'ev said, in order to feel the more unusual combination pulses, such as the scattered pulse, you have to see acutely or seriously ill patients. Some of the ways to work with this situation are to arrange trips to the community hospital with sympathetic doctors. (Having access to a teaching hospital for clinic is what's so exciting about a program such as Mercy College's in NY.) In my experience, sometimes you can set up pulse examination (NOT DIAGNOSIS) tables at health food stores and health fairs to try to capture a wider range of the public's pulses. One still is only going to feel the pulses of the ambulatory, but you do get to feel segments of the public who are not so likely to show up in your school's student clinic. You could also take pulses at your local homeless shelter, senior center, and hospice. However, that being said, I believe you can establish a sound foundation in pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, strength, and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher in a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to follow. Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. Bob > [Original Message] > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > Re: message for Flaws > > Bob, > > I'll bite. > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > understands > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > course of one weekend? > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > rush? > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > into a short course? > > Ken > > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------ Missing old school friends? Find them here: http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959269515/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2000 Report Share Posted May 25, 2000 Jason, What do you mean when you say " Giovanni's so-called books " ? According to's " Netiquette " , we assume any and all leaders in the field are part of this email group. I can't believe you meant to diss Giovanni, but it sounds that way. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2000 Report Share Posted May 25, 2000 Bob, > It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and > label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear > about the exact definitions of those labels. Seems like a pretty big if to me. When Yu Huan read this, her comment as a Chinese native who studies these things in her native language was that " it takes years to understand the meanings of those labels in terms of their practical application. It does not come so easy. " I'm not disputing your experience as a teacher. I'm just giving voice to some deep misgivings I find myself having related to the forshortening of the educational process in Chinese medical terms, ideas, and theories. I know how long it has taken me to achieve a rudimentary grasp of these things, and though I am no wizard, I just can't believe that the bulk of students are so much more intelligent than I that they could achieve such speedy results. As a matter of fact, when I consider the concept of gong fu, i.e. the long, slow development of the athletic skills that the practice of Chinese medicine requires, I find the notion of quick results oxymoronic. Don't take this to mean that I am suggesting or trying to imply that students don't receive great benefit from your seminar. I'm sure that they routinely do. But I think it is important to qualify those benefits in terms of the actual estimation of effort that is NECESSARY to master the rudiments of pulse diagnosis. > To then interpret what these > labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, training, > and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile > sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine or > large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these > qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. Yes. But I point out that your experience spans decades, not hours. > > As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a > good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed > way. Then why do it? > The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my > " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. If you were having your brain operation performed by a surgeon who had attended a weekend course because that's all he could afford, would you feel confident going under his knife? Why should we adopt lower standards? I don't intend this as a personal attack, but if we don't deal with it ourselves, then who will? We are, after all, talking about the training of individuals who will be or are primary health care providers. It is no stretch of the imagination to consider a critically ill patient presenting to an LAc for care. And it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate the possibility of a misdiagnosis resulting from lack of understanding of pulses on the part of that practitioner. I know of several such instances. > The course I teach is > basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did > not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level education. > Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while > others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because they > do not feel confident in what they learned. I understand this dynamic. My point is: if those who teach the subject don't proclaim loudly and clearly that it is a long and drawn out study and cannot be quickly learned and quickly mastered and quickly practiced then where are students expected to get this understanding from? Those who do come to realize this fact of life are only left with the impression that their teachers either didn't know or for some other reason wouldn't tell them the truth. I don't think that we can afford such alienation. If we love our students, we familiarize them with the difficulties that lie ahead to the best of our ability. If we want quality, we have to insist upon it from ourselves and from one another, as teachers and students. > > Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the > opportunity? Yes, you bet. Well, I'm certainly willing to participate in a discussion focused on the creation of such opportunities. Again, if not us, who? >... >I believe you can establish a sound foundation in > pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even > without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in > student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are > feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, strength, > and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize > the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in > particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses > correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is > best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher in > a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the > 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " This belief should be easy to demonstrate as either accurate or inaccurate. Do you conduct some sort of evaluation of those who attend your seminar in order to determine the degree to which this inter-rater reliability obtains? > > With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within > the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros > and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to > follow. One example of the kind of prerequisites to the study that I suggested in my earlier post on the subject of how to go about developing comptence in the skill of pulse diagnosis. > Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there > can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking > to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there > can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are > significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. This is more or less the same concern that has motivated the compilation of classical texts on the subject for centuries. That's why the study must commence with a rectification of the words and their meanings and a comprehensive view of the inter-related terms and theories, as outlined in my earlier post, not a quick and easy undertaking. Ken > > > [Original Message] > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > > Re: message for Flaws > > > > Bob, > > > > I'll bite. > > > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > > understands > > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > > course of one weekend? > > > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > > rush? > > > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > > into a short course? > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > Old school buds here: > > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > --- bobflaws > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ------ > Missing old school friends? Find them here: > http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959269515/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2000 Report Share Posted May 25, 2000 My apologies... I do not mean to diss Giovanni's books.. -JAson juliej8 [juliej8] Thursday, May 25, 2000 2:57 PM Re: message for Flaws Jason, What do you mean when you say " Giovanni's so-called books " ? According to's " Netiquette " , we assume any and all leaders in the field are part of this email group. I can't believe you meant to diss Giovanni, but it sounds that way. Julie ------ Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. Remember the good 'ol days http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/959291829/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Jason, All the definitions in my pulse book are taken word for word from Chinese sources. Any of my own comments or intrepretations are identified as such. Yes, there are different Chinese definitions of some of the 28 pulses. Where such differences of opinion exist within the Chinese language literature, I have noted these in my book and discussed these differences. In most cases, I have also stated which opinion I find to be most useful or valid and why. Personally, I would not call my way of teaching pulse examination " watered down. " If that's what you think, you're certainly welcome to that opinion. However, with the translations included in my book plus the translations of the Mai Jing, Nan Jing, Bin Hu Mai Xue, and several other shorter " classics " included in our Blue Poppy seminar handouts and distance learning program, I believe we present the most complete set of premodern and contemporary resources currently available translated from primary Chinese language sources -- literally hundreds and hundreds of pages. There is definitely no other collection of materials on the pulse translated from Chinese into English using a standard translational terminology and methodology anywhere near as extensive anywhere else. You might want to take another look. Bob > [Original Message] > > > 05/25/2000 11:19:54 AM > RE: message for Flaws > > I have to say (being in the middle of this whole thing, current student at > PCOM) it is not as easy as one might believe. > I will say that it is easy for 1 practitioner to teach his/her 'simple' > watered down style (i.e. Bob's basic pulses), but: > The reality is: > 1) People cannot even agree with the basic pulse quality definitions > (especially I have noticed a big difference in the westerners vs. Asian, on > simple pulses like tight. We currently have a well-respected instructor > from China teaching our pulse class and his definitions straight from the > Chinese text book used (in China) are much different than what our Western > trained supervisors know/teach and what Flaws has in his book, and > especially Giovanni's so-called books...) > 2) Even if one clarifies the definition each practitioner will tell you > something different. (i.e. even something as simple as depth I have seen > finding great debate. Tight is also debated all the time. Others: One > person says wiry, another tight, another says xu wiry , another says there > is no such thing as xu wiry it must have strength. Same thing with > slippery, it must be forceful, then you hear it is a xu slippery. Etc. > etc... Then on the chart Wiry is written, what does that mean then? > 3) Once everyone agrees on what they feel, what it means is still just as > puzzling. > 4) Finally back to the topic of translation... the if you're learning from > westerners, or if a translation of a text is involved, be weary. I am > currently studying the Jin Gui Yao Lue (prescriptions from the Golden > Chamber) and our teacher is reading straight from the Chinese text. Our > (English) translation is atrocious, there are blatant pulse errors, > interpretation errors (of the pulses), and not to mention others. > > Pulse even becomes more confusing when you jump slightly out of the realm of > 'standard definition' (what ever that means). You have people that > intuitively/or through experience start to pick up on a much deeper aspect > of diagnosis (emotional aspects.) I went to a pulse workshop with Dr. > Wei-Yen Chang and he had a completely different system he developed based on > traditional Oriental medicine and his 25+ years of experience in Taiwan, and > his results were absolutely amazing. He would walk around the audience and > feel people's pulses for about 10-15 seconds and would tell the person > things like " oh... you have gallstones " and he would be right. I believe > ancient pulse masters were doing things like this but to try to teach to the > average person they had to try to systematize and water down their system > (?). > > I know, I know nothing; I have only been doing pulse for a couple of years. > I am just commenting on what I have seen in the process. I do think pulse is > very important, and I have spent quite sometime trying to decipher it. I do > believe that it takes a minimum of ten years to become proficient at it. > One of the big things I'm trying to work on it is what Bob flaws wrote about > in one of his posts. What each pulse quality means in each position, what > is a good source text for this? Any suggestions or help from the group would > be appreciated. > > -Jason > > > Robert Flaws [bobflaws] > Thursday, May 25, 2000 8:29 AM > > Re: message for Flaws > > Ken, > > It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and > label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear > about the exact definitions of those labels. To then interpret what these > labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, training, > and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile > sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine or > large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these > qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. > > As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a > good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed > way. The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my > " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. The course I teach is > basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did > not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level education. > Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while > others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because they > do not feel confident in what they learned. > > Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the > opportunity? Yes, you bet. For instance, anyone who is well enough to get > themselves to a weekend seminar (often by flying a thousand miles or more) > and sitting through 14 hours of class can't be too ill. Therefore, in terms > of practical experience, we can only expect to feel a certain limited group > of pulse images in such a setting. As Z'ev said, in order to feel the more > unusual combination pulses, such as the scattered pulse, you have to see > acutely or seriously ill patients. > > Some of the ways to work with this situation are to arrange trips to the > community hospital with sympathetic doctors. (Having access to a teaching > hospital for clinic is what's so exciting about a program such as Mercy > College's in NY.) In my experience, sometimes you can set up pulse > examination (NOT DIAGNOSIS) tables at health food stores and health fairs > to try to capture a wider range of the public's pulses. One still is only > going to feel the pulses of the ambulatory, but you do get to feel segments > of the public who are not so likely to show up in your school's student > clinic. You could also take pulses at your local homeless shelter, senior > center, and hospice. > > However, that being said, I believe you can establish a sound foundation in > pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even > without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in > student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are > feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, strength, > and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize > the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in > particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses > correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is > best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher in > a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the > 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " > > With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within > the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros > and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to > follow. Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there > can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking > to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there > can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are > significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. > > Bob > > > [Original Message] > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > > Re: message for Flaws > > > > Bob, > > > > I'll bite. > > > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > > understands > > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > > course of one weekend? > > > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > > rush? > > > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > > into a short course? > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > Old school buds here: > > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > --- bobflaws > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ------ > Missing old school friends? Find them here: > http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959269515/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > ------ > Find long lost high school friends: > http://click./1/4056/9/_/542111/_/959275188/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Ken, Sorry, I disagree. I think you are being " Orientalist " about this. After 20+ years in clinical practice and having studied all the major Chinese classics on the pulse, I just don't think it is that difficult to learn to feel and label the 28 pulses. As I have said before, I believe the hard part is what you do with those 28 labels. Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system. As Manfred Porkert writes on this issue in Essentials of Chinese Diagnostics, most of the problems with learning the rudiments of pulse examination are due to poor teaching, and, for me, that includes poor teaching in China as well as in the West. I think as many Chinese are mystified unnecessarily by this skill as are Westerners. Bob > [Original Message] > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > 05/25/2000 11:58:03 AM > Re: message for Flaws > > Bob, > > > > It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and > > label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear > > about the exact definitions of those labels. > > Seems like a pretty big if to me. When Yu Huan read this, her comment > as a Chinese native who studies these things in her native language was > that " it takes years to understand the meanings of those labels in terms > of their practical application. It does not come so easy. " > > I'm not disputing your experience as a teacher. I'm just giving voice to > some deep misgivings I find myself having related to the forshortening of > the > educational process in Chinese medical terms, ideas, and theories. I know > how long it has taken me to achieve a rudimentary grasp of these things, and > though I am no wizard, I just can't believe that the bulk of students are so > much more intelligent than I that they could achieve such speedy results. > As a matter of fact, when I consider the concept of gong fu, i.e. the > long, slow development of the athletic skills that the practice of > Chinese medicine requires, I find the notion of quick results oxymoronic. > > Don't take this to mean that I am suggesting or trying to imply that > students don't receive great benefit from your seminar. I'm sure > that they routinely do. But I think it is important to qualify those > benefits in terms of the actual estimation of effort that is NECESSARY > to master the rudiments of pulse diagnosis. > > > To then interpret what these > > labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, > training, > > and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile > > sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine > or > > large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these > > qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. > > Yes. But I point out that your experience spans decades, not hours. > > > > As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a > > good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed > > way. > > Then why do it? > > > The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my > > " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. > > If you were having your brain operation performed by a surgeon who had > attended a weekend course because that's all he could afford, would you > feel confident going under his knife? Why should we adopt lower standards? > I don't intend this as a personal attack, but if we don't deal with it > ourselves, > then who will? We are, after all, talking about the training of individuals > who > will be or are primary health care providers. It is no stretch of the > imagination > to consider a critically ill patient presenting to an LAc for care. And it > is > no stretch of the imagination to anticipate the possibility of a > misdiagnosis > resulting from lack of understanding of pulses on the part of that > practitioner. > I know of several such instances. > > > The course I teach is > > basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did > > not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level > education. > > Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while > > others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because > they > > do not feel confident in what they learned. > > I understand this dynamic. My point is: if those who teach the subject > don't proclaim loudly and clearly that it is a long and drawn out study and > cannot be quickly learned and quickly mastered and quickly practiced > then where are students expected to get this understanding from? Those > who do come to realize this fact of life are only left with the impression > that their teachers either didn't know or for some other reason wouldn't > tell them the truth. I don't think that we can afford such alienation. If we > love our students, we familiarize them with the difficulties that lie ahead > to the best of our ability. If we want quality, we have to insist upon it > from ourselves and from one another, as teachers and students. > > > > > Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the > > opportunity? Yes, you bet. > > Well, I'm certainly willing to participate in a discussion focused on the > creation of such opportunities. Again, if not us, who? > > >... > >I believe you can establish a sound foundation in > > pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even > > without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in > > student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are > > feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, > strength, > > and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize > > the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in > > particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses > > correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is > > best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher > in > > a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the > > 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " > > This belief should be easy to demonstrate as either accurate or inaccurate. > Do you conduct some sort of evaluation of those who attend your > seminar in order to determine the degree to which this inter-rater > reliability obtains? > > > > > With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within > > the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros > > and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to > > follow. > > One example of the kind of prerequisites to the study that I suggested > in my earlier post on the subject of how to go about developing comptence > in the skill of pulse diagnosis. > > > Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there > > can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking > > to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there > > can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are > > significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. > > This is more or less the same concern that has motivated the compilation > of classical texts on the subject for centuries. That's why the study must > commence with a rectification of the words and their meanings and a > comprehensive view of the inter-related terms and theories, as outlined > in my earlier post, not a quick and easy undertaking. > > > Ken > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > > > Re: message for Flaws > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > I'll bite. > > > > > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > > > understands > > > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > > > > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > > > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > > > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > > > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > > > course of one weekend? > > > > > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > > > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > > > > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > > > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > > > rush? > > > > > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > > > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > > > into a short course? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > Old school buds here: > > > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > > > ------ > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > --- bobflaws > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > ------ > > Missing old school friends? Find them here: > > http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959269515/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > ------ > Find long lost high school friends: > http://click./1/4056/9/_/542111/_/959277474/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Dear Jason, I think we have to give credit where credit is due here. . . .a large problem in this profession. While I agree that there is presently much confusion in the educational system on pulses ( a project I am working on clearing up in the PCOM cirriculum as we speak), I think that Bob Flaws must take the lion's share of credit for translating or supporting more translation of pulse material through Blue Poppy than any other source. I think his workshops give a solid foundation to work from. . . .at the same time, I think that workshops with such people as Dr. Chang, Leon Hammer, John Shen, Jim Ramholz and others can also be very valuable. But using the Wiseman terminology for pulse qualities (as Bob does) is essential in developing a base for communicating what it is we feel when we palpate the pulse. >I have to say (being in the middle of this whole thing, current student at >PCOM) it is not as easy as one might believe. >I will say that it is easy for 1 practitioner to teach his/her 'simple' >watered down style (i.e. Bob's basic pulses), but: >The reality is: >1) People cannot even agree with the basic pulse quality definitions >(especially I have noticed a big difference in the westerners vs. Asian, on >simple pulses like tight. We currently have a well-respected instructor >from China teaching our pulse class and his definitions straight from the >Chinese text book used (in China) are much different than what our Western >trained supervisors know/teach and what Flaws has in his book, and >especially Giovanni's so-called books...) >2) Even if one clarifies the definition each practitioner will tell you >something different. (i.e. even something as simple as depth I have seen >finding great debate. Tight is also debated all the time. Others: One >person says wiry, another tight, another says xu wiry , another says there >is no such thing as xu wiry it must have strength. Same thing with >slippery, it must be forceful, then you hear it is a xu slippery. Etc. >etc... Then on the chart Wiry is written, what does that mean then? >3) Once everyone agrees on what they feel, what it means is still just as >puzzling. >4) Finally back to the topic of translation... the if you're learning from >westerners, or if a translation of a text is involved, be weary. I am >currently studying the Jin Gui Yao Lue (prescriptions from the Golden >Chamber) and our teacher is reading straight from the Chinese text. Our >(English) translation is atrocious, there are blatant pulse errors, >interpretation errors (of the pulses), and not to mention others. > >Pulse even becomes more confusing when you jump slightly out of the realm of >'standard definition' (what ever that means). You have people that >intuitively/or through experience start to pick up on a much deeper aspect >of diagnosis (emotional aspects.) I went to a pulse workshop with Dr. >Wei-Yen Chang and he had a completely different system he developed based on >traditional Oriental medicine and his 25+ years of experience in Taiwan, and >his results were absolutely amazing. He would walk around the audience and >feel people's pulses for about 10-15 seconds and would tell the person >things like " oh... you have gallstones " and he would be right. I believe >ancient pulse masters were doing things like this but to try to teach to the >average person they had to try to systematize and water down their system >(?). > >I know, I know nothing; I have only been doing pulse for a couple of years. >I am just commenting on what I have seen in the process. I do think pulse is >very important, and I have spent quite sometime trying to decipher it. I do >believe that it takes a minimum of ten years to become proficient at it. >One of the big things I'm trying to work on it is what Bob flaws wrote about >in one of his posts. What each pulse quality means in each position, what >is a good source text for this? Any suggestions or help from the group would >be appreciated. > >-Jason > > >Robert Flaws [bobflaws] >Thursday, May 25, 2000 8:29 AM > >Re: message for Flaws > >Ken, > >It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and >label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely clear >about the exact definitions of those labels. To then interpret what these >labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, training, >and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile >sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine or >large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these >qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. > >As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a >good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed >way. The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my > " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. The course I teach is >basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did >not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level education. >Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while >others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because they >do not feel confident in what they learned. > >Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the >opportunity? Yes, you bet. For instance, anyone who is well enough to get >themselves to a weekend seminar (often by flying a thousand miles or more) >and sitting through 14 hours of class can't be too ill. Therefore, in terms >of practical experience, we can only expect to feel a certain limited group >of pulse images in such a setting. As Z'ev said, in order to feel the more >unusual combination pulses, such as the scattered pulse, you have to see >acutely or seriously ill patients. > >Some of the ways to work with this situation are to arrange trips to the >community hospital with sympathetic doctors. (Having access to a teaching >hospital for clinic is what's so exciting about a program such as Mercy >College's in NY.) In my experience, sometimes you can set up pulse >examination (NOT DIAGNOSIS) tables at health food stores and health fairs >to try to capture a wider range of the public's pulses. One still is only >going to feel the pulses of the ambulatory, but you do get to feel segments >of the public who are not so likely to show up in your school's student >clinic. You could also take pulses at your local homeless shelter, senior >center, and hospice. > >However, that being said, I believe you can establish a sound foundation in >pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has to)even >without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or in >student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are >feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, strength, >and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, recognize >the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in >particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses >correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it is >best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher in >a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label the >28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " > >With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition within >the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the pros >and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to >follow. Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there >can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When talking >to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before there >can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are >significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. > >Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Robert Flaws [bobflaws] Friday, May 26, 2000 9:44 AM RE: message for Flaws Jason, All the definitions in my pulse book are taken word for word from Chinese sources. Any of my own comments or intrepretations are identified as such. No doubt... The point is that there are so many Chinese sources that seem to say very different things with not only pulses, but theory, herbs, etc. just because a Chinese text somewhere says something does not mean it is true. This is just a general statement not criticizing your work at all. I am just comparing what is written in the Western 'texts' with the current Chinese text(s) in the major universities (what we were taught in our pulse class). I wonder why there is such a difference? Also what does word for word really mean, when translation is such a problem. As mentioned previously pulses in English translations are many times completely wrong from the original tex (i.e. printing tight instead of wiry)t. One example, as my Chinese teacher pointed out, on a pulse that says to wei suo (Sorry I cannot use the characters) (i.e. golden chamber ch. III - 1) how it is this interpreted? does that mean small and rapid or slightly rapid?? Or wei se (ch.VI-2)? So what did Zhang Zhong Jing really mean? Does it matter? What about when the translation assumes they know and prints only one version i.e. minute and choppy? Yes, there are different Chinese definitions of some of the 28 pulses. Where such differences of opinion exist within the Chinese language literature, I have noted these in my book and discussed these differences. In most cases, I have also stated which opinion I find to be most useful or valid and why. Yes I do think you did a very good job with your text, I do enjoy it, but there still are differences and room to grow. Personally, I would not call my way of teaching pulse examination " watered down. " If that's what you think, you're certainly welcome to that opinion. Unfortunately I think anything that can be offered in a weekend seminar, most pulse workshops, and pulse classes at schools are watered down. When I asked my Chinese teacher if there was more, he responded that yes in China he learned a whole energetic system that was way beyond the basic 28 pulse qualities. But he said it takes years to Master just those 28 qualities and until then don't bother. I know one thing I feel about 25x more than I am able to express, I have know idea what I am feeling, and many times when I mention it to my supervisors they say it is not important, or they don't feel anything, or just say " the pulse is just wiry.. " I have heard this so many times it makes me sick. Especially since once the pulse is deemed wiry (overall) it plays no clinical significance in dx or tx. What good is pulse at this point? Why are so many case studies from china (and here) saying the pulse is wiry on left slippery on right. And that is it, is there not more? Maybe I am looking for too much... I just see confusion, (probably because I am confused) However, with the translations included in my book plus the translations of the Mai Jing, Nan Jing, Bin Hu Mai Xue, and several other shorter " classics " included in our Blue Poppy seminar handouts and distance learning program, I believe we present the most complete set of premodern and contemporary resources currently available translated from primary Chinese language sources -- literally hundreds and hundreds of pages. There is definitely no other collection of materials on the pulse translated from Chinese into English using a standard translational terminology and methodology anywhere near as extensive anywhere else. You might want to take another look. I probably agree with you, the only other text to mention is " practical diagnosis in traditional Chinese medicine by Deng. " It is a good piece of work. I may be just comparing your work with a systematized-post 1949 Pulse system/ definitions. What is the current Chinese texts (i.e. Beijing university) really using, where is that from? I am not sure. One can always find differences in the classics... the question is how do we standardize? Should we standardize? Or to what extent? And is there truly an energetic system beyond the basic 28 pulses? -Jason P.s. BTW- any possibility of you putting together a decent translation of the Jin Gui lao Luo? > [Original Message] > > > 05/25/2000 11:19:54 AM > RE: message for Flaws > > I have to say (being in the middle of this whole thing, current student at > PCOM) it is not as easy as one might believe. > I will say that it is easy for 1 practitioner to teach his/her 'simple' > watered down style (i.e. Bob's basic pulses), but: > The reality is: > 1) People cannot even agree with the basic pulse quality definitions > (especially I have noticed a big difference in the westerners vs. Asian, on > simple pulses like tight. We currently have a well-respected instructor > from China teaching our pulse class and his definitions straight from the > Chinese text book used (in China) are much different than what our Western > trained supervisors know/teach and what Flaws has in his book, and > especially Giovanni's so-called books...) > 2) Even if one clarifies the definition each practitioner will tell you > something different. (i.e. even something as simple as depth I have seen > finding great debate. Tight is also debated all the time. Others: One > person says wiry, another tight, another says xu wiry , another says there > is no such thing as xu wiry it must have strength. Same thing with > slippery, it must be forceful, then you hear it is a xu slippery. Etc. > etc... Then on the chart Wiry is written, what does that mean then? > 3) Once everyone agrees on what they feel, what it means is still just as > puzzling. > 4) Finally back to the topic of translation... the if you're learning from > westerners, or if a translation of a text is involved, be weary. I am > currently studying the Jin Gui Yao Lue (prescriptions from the Golden > Chamber) and our teacher is reading straight from the Chinese text. Our > (English) translation is atrocious, there are blatant pulse errors, > interpretation errors (of the pulses), and not to mention others. > > Pulse even becomes more confusing when you jump slightly out of the realm of > 'standard definition' (what ever that means). You have people that > intuitively/or through experience start to pick up on a much deeper aspect > of diagnosis (emotional aspects.) I went to a pulse workshop with Dr. > Wei-Yen Chang and he had a completely different system he developed based on > traditional Oriental medicine and his 25+ years of experience in Taiwan, and > his results were absolutely amazing. He would walk around the audience and > feel people's pulses for about 10-15 seconds and would tell the person > things like " oh... you have gallstones " and he would be right. I believe > ancient pulse masters were doing things like this but to try to teach to the > average person they had to try to systematize and water down their system > (?). > > I know, I know nothing; I have only been doing pulse for a couple of years. > I am just commenting on what I have seen in the process. I do think pulse is > very important, and I have spent quite sometime trying to decipher it. I do > believe that it takes a minimum of ten years to become proficient at it. > One of the big things I'm trying to work on it is what Bob flaws wrote about > in one of his posts. What each pulse quality means in each position, what > is a good source text for this? Any suggestions or help from the group would > be appreciated. > > -Jason > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Hi Bob, > Sorry, I disagree. I think it's good to disagree. And I'm not sorry for having such disagreements. One of the things I admire about you is your forthrightness. I appreciate a good disagreement, and we definitely seem to have one here. > I think you are being " Orientalist " about this. Can you explain what you mean by this term? Let me know if it's an insult. I keep a file. > After > 20+ years in clinical practice and having studied all the major Chinese > classics on the pulse, I just don't think it is that difficult to learn to > feel and label the 28 pulses. As I have said before, I believe the hard > part is what you do with those 28 labels. And as I said, I believe the hard part is knowing the proper contexts (linguistic, literary, cultural, scientific, etc.) in which those 28 labels take on pracitcal meanings and in having enough opportunity to deal with those meanings in real live patients to turn clear definitions into real understanding of human physiology. This is on top of the gong fu of turning hands that know nothing into hands that can receive messages from another person's qi. Is that Orientalist? > > Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system. Like all systems of higher education, the one that has grown up in China over the past fifty years or so leaves a lot to be desired. But I don't know of any other zone that has implemented traditional Chinese medicine as effectively in the serivce of public health objectives as has mainland China. Certainly the Chinese have been the standard bearers of this discipline in the modern era, and of course when you widen the view to include past ages...well, there is a reason why we call it Chinese medicine. As I said earlier, my underlying disagreement is with the attitude that I find somewhat pervasive in the field of Chinese medical education in this country that holds that complex things can be made simple by mere reduction. I don't dispute your own understanding of the issues, as I know you to be a serious and dedicated student of the material. I do continue to wonder how it is that you could so quickly get students to achieve understandings that have proven so elusive to me, but as I pointed out, I'm no wizard and have perhaps taken a lot longer to learn even the simplest things than is, strictly speaking, required. > As Manfred > Porkert writes on this issue in Essentials of Chinese Diagnostics, most of > the problems with learning the rudiments of pulse examination are due to > poor teaching, and, for me, that includes poor teaching in China as well as > in the West. I think as many Chinese are mystified unnecessarily by this > skill as are Westerners. My teachers in China were not mystified nor did they purvey the idea that pulse diagnosis was mystifying. I must reiterate that neither did they suggest, nor would they condone the notion that it could be learned in the course of one weekend. I just read in another post by James where he likens the skill to learning to play an instrument. Good analogy I think. Of course there are some skills that can be adequately described and maybe even taught in relatively short periods of time. But the development and emergence of skill is a long drawn out thing. And then there is the music, the movement of qi itself. When I asked you before what's the rush, you said I had made a good point. Now you seem to be dispensing with that good point as Orientalist. I suppose that before I pursue the disagreement any further, I'd better wait and learn precisely what that means in your eyes. Ken > Bob > > > [Original Message] > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > 05/25/2000 11:58:03 AM > > Re: message for Flaws > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > It's my experience as a teacher that one can learn to reliably feel and > > > label the 28 pulses in 14 hours of instruction if one is absolutely > clear > > > about the exact definitions of those labels. > > > > Seems like a pretty big if to me. When Yu Huan read this, her comment > > as a Chinese native who studies these things in her native language was > > that " it takes years to understand the meanings of those labels in terms > > of their practical application. It does not come so easy. " > > > > I'm not disputing your experience as a teacher. I'm just giving voice to > > some deep misgivings I find myself having related to the forshortening of > > the > > educational process in Chinese medical terms, ideas, and theories. I know > > how long it has taken me to achieve a rudimentary grasp of these things, > and > > though I am no wizard, I just can't believe that the bulk of students are > so > > much more intelligent than I that they could achieve such speedy results. > > As a matter of fact, when I consider the concept of gong fu, i.e. the > > long, slow development of the athletic skills that the practice of > > Chinese medicine requires, I find the notion of quick results oxymoronic. > > > > Don't take this to mean that I am suggesting or trying to imply that > > students don't receive great benefit from your seminar. I'm sure > > that they routinely do. But I think it is important to qualify those > > benefits in terms of the actual estimation of effort that is NECESSARY > > to master the rudiments of pulse diagnosis. > > > > > To then interpret what these > > > labels mean is a whole other issue requiring much more education, > > training, > > > and experience. All 28 pulses are made up of very simple tactile > > > sensations. Floating and deep, fast or slow, forceful or forceless, fine > > or > > > large (wide), regular or irregular in beat -- in my experience, these > > > qualities are not that difficult to discriminate. > > > > Yes. But I point out that your experience spans decades, not hours. > > > > > > As to why one would want to teach this material in 14 hours, you have a > > > good point. I would rather NOT teach this material in such a compressed > > > way. > > > > Then why do it? > > > > > The only reason I do is because that is what realistically my > > > " customers " can afford in terms of time and money. > > > > If you were having your brain operation performed by a surgeon who had > > attended a weekend course because that's all he could afford, would you > > feel confident going under his knife? Why should we adopt lower standards? > > I don't intend this as a personal attack, but if we don't deal with it > > ourselves, > > then who will? We are, after all, talking about the training of > individuals > > who > > will be or are primary health care providers. It is no stretch of the > > imagination > > to consider a critically ill patient presenting to an LAc for care. And it > > is > > no stretch of the imagination to anticipate the possibility of a > > misdiagnosis > > resulting from lack of understanding of pulses on the part of that > > practitioner. > > I know of several such instances. > > > > > The course I teach is > > > basically a remedial course for those people who recognize that they did > > > not learn this examination skill adequately in their entry-level > > education. > > > Some of these students only recieved a couple of hours training, while > > > others may have received much more. But all come to my seminar because > > they > > > do not feel confident in what they learned. > > > > I understand this dynamic. My point is: if those who teach the subject > > don't proclaim loudly and clearly that it is a long and drawn out study > and > > cannot be quickly learned and quickly mastered and quickly practiced > > then where are students expected to get this understanding from? Those > > who do come to realize this fact of life are only left with the impression > > that their teachers either didn't know or for some other reason wouldn't > > tell them the truth. I don't think that we can afford such alienation. If > we > > love our students, we familiarize them with the difficulties that lie > ahead > > to the best of our ability. If we want quality, we have to insist upon it > > from ourselves and from one another, as teachers and students. > > > > > > > > Would I teach this material differently, more slowly if I had the > > > opportunity? Yes, you bet. > > > > Well, I'm certainly willing to participate in a discussion focused on the > > creation of such opportunities. Again, if not us, who? > > > > >... > > >I believe you can establish a sound foundation in > > > pulse examination in a relatively short period of time (if one has > to)even > > > without necessarily having felt every one of the 28 pulses in class or > in > > > student clinic. As long as you know how to analyze the pulse you are > > > feeling into its basic components of speed, depth, length, width, > > strength, > > > and regularity and can, on top of those categories of sensation, > recognize > > > the qualities of slipperiness and bowstringness (wiry, stringlike) in > > > particular, then you should be able to label any of the 28 pulses > > > correctly, i.e., with inter-rater reliability. In other words, while it > is > > > best to have each of the 28 pulses pointed out by an experienced teacher > > in > > > a live model, when that is not possible, one can still feel and label > the > > > 28 pulses based on " mastering the methodology. " > > > > This belief should be easy to demonstrate as either accurate or > inaccurate. > > Do you conduct some sort of evaluation of those who attend your > > seminar in order to determine the degree to which this inter-rater > > reliability obtains? > > > > > > > > With a few pulses, there are significant differences of definition > within > > > the Chinese literature. When it comes to these, one has to weigh the > pros > > > and cons of each definition and decide which definition one is going to > > > follow. > > > > One example of the kind of prerequisites to the study that I suggested > > in my earlier post on the subject of how to go about developing comptence > > in the skill of pulse diagnosis. > > > > > Within a school or clinic, there should be a standard so that there > > > can be inter-rater reliability within that school or clinic. When > talking > > > to peers about such pulses, one has to state one's definition before > there > > > can be agreement and inter-rater reliability. For instance, there are > > > significant differences in definition of the scattered and short pulses. > > > > This is more or less the same concern that has motivated the compilation > > of classical texts on the subject for centuries. That's why the study must > > commence with a rectification of the words and their meanings and a > > comprehensive view of the inter-related terms and theories, as outlined > > in my earlier post, not a quick and easy undertaking. > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > > > > > 05/24/2000 4:27:33 PM > > > > Re: message for Flaws > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > I'll bite. > > > > > > > > >Contrary to some other respondents opinions, I do believe > > > > > that you can get the rudiments of this skill in 14 hours if one > > > > understands > > > > > the precise implications of the Chinese words. > > > > > > > > What does it mean to " get the rudiments of this skill? " > > > > Are you suggesting that a student who is otherwise > > > > relatively unfamiliar with pulse diagnosis can become > > > > proficient in the rudiments of this skill during the > > > > course of one weekend? > > > > > > > > If this is true, why does training last so much longer > > > > in virtually all traditional Chinese settings? > > > > > > > > This just does not make any sense to me. Why on earth > > > > would anyone want to learn so much so fast? What's the > > > > rush? > > > > > > > > In a broader context, what lies behind the urge to represent > > > > to students that a long drawn out study can be compressed > > > > into a short course? > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > Old school buds here: > > > > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959207247/ > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > > --- bobflaws > > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > Missing old school friends? Find them here: > > > http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959269515/ > > > ------ > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > ------ > > Find long lost high school friends: > > http://click./1/4056/9/_/542111/_/959277474/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > --- bobflaws > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959361654/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Robert Flaws [bobflaws] Friday, May 26, 2000 12:00 AM Re: message for Flaws Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system ?? Wow.. It is my understanding that Chinese medical schools are much more rigorous and thorough... I am American, and involved in the TCM educational system currently here in the USA... And our schools are somewhat of a joke (currently, and yes they are getting better).. but they are far from being medical schools... They are 80% fluff... What do I base this on: 1) Other graduate schools in the USA... (Medical and other) (i.e. Graduate prg.'s in philosophy require Latin and Greek for entrance) (people here whine about learning a little Chinese let alone implementing into prg.'s) 2) Comparing the supervisors from China and the supervisors who have graduated from schools here in the states. There is not even a comparison. The amount of knowledge and clarity that the Chinese supers/teachers is night and day.. except for a select few who have studied way beyond their schooling (i.e. Z'ev) 3) In China they study here, well who knows what people are doing... and yes there are always exceptions... and yes I could be part of the grass is greener illusion. 4) I find people here supplement their lack of knowledge with pseudo-esoteric philosophies (none TCM based theories) creating a whole new system (i.e. muscle testing etc.) (which is interesting but not TCM), while it seems Chinese pract/ teachers are just very strong in TCM.. I don't know if this is good or not, just making an observation. -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 To add to this discussion regarding pulse subtleties, the classic texts are a beautiful and useful foundation upon which we all build and work with. In modern practice, I have often felt pulses that are caused by medications, organ removal, eating disorders... all of our modern day western afflictions which resonate deeply and emerge in the pulses. In the future of this medicine, I am certain that we will indeed see a growing number of pulse qualities we shall have to classify and describe, as did our ancient predecessors, in flowery metaphoric language, so we may convey them, standardize and teach them to others. Eti Domb Quoting : > > > > Robert Flaws [bobflaws] > Friday, May 26, 2000 9:44 AM > > RE: message for Flaws > > Jason, > > All the definitions in my pulse book are taken word for word from Chinese > sources. Any of my own comments or intrepretations are identified as such. > > No doubt... The point is that there are so many Chinese sources that seem > to > say very different things with not only pulses, but theory, herbs, etc. > just > because a Chinese text somewhere says something does not mean it is true. > This is just a general statement not criticizing your work at all. I am > just comparing what is written in the Western 'texts' with the current > Chinese text(s) in the major universities (what we were taught in our pulse > class). I wonder why there is such a difference? > Also what does word for word really mean, when translation is such a > problem. As mentioned previously pulses in English translations are many > times completely wrong from the original tex (i.e. printing tight instead > of > wiry)t. One example, as my Chinese teacher pointed out, on a pulse that > says to wei suo (Sorry I cannot use the characters) (i.e. golden chamber > ch. > III - 1) how it is this interpreted? does that mean small and rapid or > slightly rapid?? Or wei se (ch.VI-2)? So what did Zhang Zhong Jing really > mean? Does it matter? What about when the translation assumes they know and > prints only one version i.e. minute and choppy? > > Yes, there are different Chinese definitions of some of the 28 pulses. > Where such differences of opinion exist within the Chinese language > literature, I have noted these in my book and discussed these differences. > In most cases, I have also stated which opinion I find to be most useful or > valid and why. > > Yes I do think you did a very good job with your text, I do enjoy it, but > there still are differences and room to grow. > > Personally, I would not call my way of teaching pulse examination " watered > down. " If that's what you think, you're certainly welcome to that opinion. > Unfortunately I think anything that can be offered in a weekend seminar, > most pulse workshops, and pulse classes at schools are watered down. When > I > asked my Chinese teacher if there was more, he responded that yes in China > he learned a whole energetic system that was way beyond the basic 28 pulse > qualities. But he said it takes years to Master just those 28 qualities > and > until then don't bother. I know one thing I feel about 25x more than I am > able to express, I have know idea what I am feeling, and many times when I > mention it to my supervisors they say it is not important, or they don't > feel anything, or just say " the pulse is just wiry.. " I have heard this so > many times it makes me sick. Especially since once the pulse is deemed > wiry > (overall) it plays no clinical significance in dx or tx. What good is pulse > at this point? Why are so many case studies from china (and here) saying > the pulse is wiry on left slippery on right. And that is it, is there not > more? Maybe I am looking for too much... I just see confusion, (probably > because I am confused) > > However, with the translations included in my book plus the translations of > the Mai Jing, Nan Jing, Bin Hu Mai Xue, and several other shorter > " classics " included in our Blue Poppy seminar handouts and distance > learning program, I believe we present the most complete set of premodern > and contemporary resources currently available translated from primary > Chinese language sources -- literally hundreds and hundreds of pages. There > is definitely no other collection of materials on the pulse translated from > Chinese into English using a standard translational terminology and > methodology anywhere near as extensive anywhere else. You might want to > take another look. > > I probably agree with you, the only other text to mention is " practical > diagnosis in traditional Chinese medicine by Deng. " It is a good piece of > work. I may be just comparing your work with a systematized-post 1949 > Pulse > system/ definitions. What is the current Chinese texts (i.e. Beijing > university) really using, where is that from? I am not sure. One can always > find differences in the classics... the question is how do we standardize? > Should we standardize? Or to what extent? And is there truly an energetic > system beyond the basic 28 pulses? > > -Jason > > P.s. BTW- any possibility of you putting together a decent translation of > the Jin Gui lao Luo? > > > [Original Message] > > > > > > 05/25/2000 11:19:54 AM > > RE: message for Flaws > > > > I have to say (being in the middle of this whole thing, current student > at > > PCOM) it is not as easy as one might believe. > > I will say that it is easy for 1 practitioner to teach his/her 'simple' > > watered down style (i.e. Bob's basic pulses), but: > > The reality is: > > 1) People cannot even agree with the basic pulse quality definitions > > (especially I have noticed a big difference in the westerners vs. Asian, > on > > simple pulses like tight. We currently have a well-respected instructor > > from China teaching our pulse class and his definitions straight from the > > Chinese text book used (in China) are much different than what our > Western > > trained supervisors know/teach and what Flaws has in his book, and > > especially Giovanni's so-called books...) > > 2) Even if one clarifies the definition each practitioner will tell you > > something different. (i.e. even something as simple as depth I have seen > > finding great debate. Tight is also debated all the time. Others: One > > person says wiry, another tight, another says xu wiry , another says > there > > is no such thing as xu wiry it must have strength. Same thing with > > slippery, it must be forceful, then you hear it is a xu slippery. Etc. > > etc... Then on the chart Wiry is written, what does that mean then? > > 3) Once everyone agrees on what they feel, what it means is still just as > > puzzling. > > 4) Finally back to the topic of translation... the if you're learning > from > > westerners, or if a translation of a text is involved, be weary. I am > > currently studying the Jin Gui Yao Lue (prescriptions from the Golden > > Chamber) and our teacher is reading straight from the Chinese text. Our > > (English) translation is atrocious, there are blatant pulse errors, > > interpretation errors (of the pulses), and not to mention others. > > > > Pulse even becomes more confusing when you jump slightly out of the realm > of > > 'standard definition' (what ever that means). You have people that > > intuitively/or through experience start to pick up on a much deeper > aspect > > of diagnosis (emotional aspects.) I went to a pulse workshop with Dr. > > Wei-Yen Chang and he had a completely different system he developed based > on > > traditional Oriental medicine and his 25+ years of experience in Taiwan, > and > > his results were absolutely amazing. He would walk around the audience > and > > feel people's pulses for about 10-15 seconds and would tell the person > > things like " oh... you have gallstones " and he would be right. I believe > > ancient pulse masters were doing things like this but to try to teach to > the > > average person they had to try to systematize and water down their system > > (?). > > > > I know, I know nothing; I have only been doing pulse for a couple of > years. > > I am just commenting on what I have seen in the process. I do think pulse > is > > very important, and I have spent quite sometime trying to decipher it. I > do > > believe that it takes a minimum of ten years to become proficient at it. > > One of the big things I'm trying to work on it is what Bob flaws wrote > about > > in one of his posts. What each pulse quality means in each position, > what > > is a good source text for this? Any suggestions or help from the group > would > > be appreciated. > > > > -Jason > > > > > ------ > Find long lost high school friends: > http://click./1/4056/9/_/542111/_/959366730/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Dear Jason, Without having directly experienced the Chinese schools, I would say that at various times there has been curtailment of open discourse on many issues with TCM that may be politically charged, or that questions the government agenda for the schools. This certainly limits innovation and debate, and effects the quality of education. While there certainly is more clarity in many Chinese instructors than their Western counterparts, this is often based on Chinese language abilities. However, we see that this often does not translate into good communication skills in English. . ..such as in the jin gui yao lue/Prescriptions from the Golden Cabinet translation you mentioned in the earlier post. I think you need to give some Western instructors credit for their devotion to the craft, and their struggles to learn and teach a difficult subject, although I know your frustrations in specific circumstances. > > >Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system > ?? Wow.. It is my understanding that Chinese medical schools are much more >rigorous and thorough... I am American, and involved in the TCM >educational system currently here in the USA... And our schools are somewhat >of a joke (currently, and yes they are getting better).. but they are far >from being medical schools... They are 80% fluff... What do I base this on: >1) Other graduate schools in the USA... (Medical and other) (i.e. Graduate >prg.'s in philosophy require Latin and Greek for entrance) (people here >whine about learning a little Chinese let alone implementing into prg.'s) >2) Comparing the supervisors from China and the supervisors who have >graduated from schools here in the states. There is not even a comparison. >The amount of knowledge and clarity that the Chinese supers/teachers is >night and day.. except for a select few who have studied way beyond their >schooling (i.e. Z'ev) >3) In China they study here, well who knows what people are doing... and yes >there are always exceptions... and yes I could be part of the grass is >greener illusion. >4) I find people here supplement their lack of knowledge with >pseudo-esoteric philosophies (none TCM based theories) creating a whole new >system (i.e. muscle testing etc.) (which is interesting but not TCM), while >it seems Chinese pract/ teachers are just very strong in TCM.. I don't know >if this is good or not, just making an observation. > >-JAson > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Z'ev, and Jason, et al, Let me also add here that when I was in China back in the 80's I saw a broad variety of TCM practioners, some who were excellent, quite a few who were of quite poor quality. In fact, the two most excellent practioners I had the good fortune to observe were both quite different in their approaches. One was entirely Shan Han Lun in his orientation, and only used modifications of SHL rx's. The other Dr. was just as likely to prescribe western meds in simple, or acute situations as he was to prescribe traditional herb formulas for pts. with more complicated problems. Both were in their late 50's/early 60's. Perhaps things have changed in the PRC since then, but when I was there, the mere fact of having been schooled in China did not seem to be a good predictor of quality, ability, or depth of practice. My impression was that there were some Chinese TCM programs that were better than others, but even more important seemed to be the amount of time, effort and study the individual Dr's. had put into learning their medicine, i.e., studying the classics, reading many, many research reports, and clinical case studies, seeking out other, more experienced " old doctors " they could learn from, and traveling to wherever they were in order to visit and learn from them (not always an easy prospect in China, compared to the easy availability of travel, and educational opportunities here in the US). Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical Chinese " (as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth, thorough, and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western Medicine than has been available up to now. It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English conversationally. When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the scientific and medical information that was not available in their native Chinese language, and that was only available in English. Seems like an important object lession. All the best, Bruce ------------------------------(original messages follow) Dear Jason, Without having directly experienced the Chinese schools, I would say that at various times there has been curtailment of open discourse on many issues with TCM that may be politically charged, or that questions the government agenda for the schools. This certainly limits innovation and debate, and effects the quality of education. While there certainly is more clarity in many Chinese instructors than their Western counterparts, this is often based on Chinese language abilities. However, we see that this often does not translate into good communication skills in English. . ..such as in the jin gui yao lue/Prescriptions from the Golden Cabinet translation you mentioned in the earlier post. I think you need to give some Western instructors credit for their devotion to the craft, and their struggles to learn and teach a difficult subject, although I know your frustrations in specific circumstances. > > >Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system > ?? Wow.. It is my understanding that Chinese medical schools are much more >rigorous and thorough... I am American, and involved in the TCM >educational system currently here in the USA... And our schools are somewhat >of a joke (currently, and yes they are getting better).. but they are far >from being medical schools... They are 80% fluff... What do I base this on: >1) Other graduate schools in the USA... (Medical and other) (i.e. Graduate >prg.'s in philosophy require Latin and Greek for entrance) (people here >whine about learning a little Chinese let alone implementing into prg.'s) >2) Comparing the supervisors from China and the supervisors who have >graduated from schools here in the states. There is not even a comparison. >The amount of knowledge and clarity that the Chinese supers/teachers is >night and day.. except for a select few who have studied way beyond their >schooling (i.e. Z'ev) >3) In China they study here, well who knows what people are doing... and yes >there are always exceptions... and yes I could be part of the grass is >greener illusion. >4) I find people here supplement their lack of knowledge with >pseudo-esoteric philosophies (none TCM based theories) creating a whole new >system (i.e. muscle testing etc.) (which is interesting but not TCM), while >it seems Chinese pract/ teachers are just very strong in TCM.. I don't know >if this is good or not, just making an observation. > >-JAson > > ------ Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959380640/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-1187-959380640-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by air-yd05.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:27:02 -0400 Received: from c3. (c3. [207.138.41.143]) by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:26:35 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-1187-959380640-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.37] by c3. with NNFMP; 26 May 2000 22:37:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 27165 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 22:37:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 May 2000 22:37:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO volt.electriciti.com) (216.240.160.252) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 May 2000 22:37:19 -0000 Received: from [216.240.161.104] (elec-240-161-125.ixpres.com [216.240.161.125]) by volt.electriciti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28202 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <v03007807b554ac9c0a3a@[216.240.161.104]> In-<LPBBIGNBCHPKLEOCIHNLIEMLCAAA.> References: <41200055261748550 X-eGroups- " " <zrosenberg " " <zrosenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Fri, 26 May 2000 15:40:11 -0700 RE: message for Flaws Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2000 Report Share Posted May 27, 2000 Dear Bruce, While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without glossaries and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese translations, and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential content of the original text. > > >Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think >that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA >is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical Chinese " >(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth, thorough, >and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western >Medicine than has been available up to now. > >It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC >read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English >conversationally. > >When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in >order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the >scientific and medical information that was not available in their native >Chinese language, and that was only available in English. > >Seems like an important object lession. > >All the best, > >Bruce > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 Z'ev and Bruce, I think there is a point that should be added here. The issues that remain " in one's brain " remain in the brains of Chinese scholars regardless of their ethnic heritage or native language. The study of Chinese medical classics is an extraordinarily complex and difficult set of issues. The only advantage that native Chinese scholars have over others is the familiarity with both the language and the cultural context in which the medical classics exist. Non-Chinese simply HAVE to fortify their own brains with comparable familiarity in order to get down to the truly difficult task. When it comes to producing useful translations, we discover that this sort of familiarity must exist with respect to both ends of the translation process. The real issue is committment. In order for true and deep understanding of these materials to arise, we have to pump up the volume on the committment that is being made to the work that must take place. The individuals Z'ev mentions are capable of producing excellent results primarily because they work hard at it. There is no short course to the study of Chinese medical texts. And there is no adequate study of Chinese medicine without reference to these classical texts. Period. Ken - <zrosenberg Saturday, May 27, 2000 8:46 PM Re: message for Flaws > Dear Bruce, > While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn > medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to > translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven > Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant > job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without glossaries > and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other > alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese translations, > and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential > content of the original text. > > > > > > > > >Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think > >that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA > >is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical Chinese " > >(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth, thorough, > >and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western > >Medicine than has been available up to now. > > > >It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC > >read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English > >conversationally. > > > >When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in > >order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the > >scientific and medical information that was not available in their native > >Chinese language, and that was only available in English. > > > >Seems like an important object lession. > > > >All the best, > > > >Bruce > > > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959485328/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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