Chinese medical education

[Guest guest]

Interesting perspective and very well expressed. I experience the

" acupuncture dilemma " all the time. I believe we truely need to teach our

patients that we practice chinese medicine and all that it embraces...at the

same time practice chinese medicine and NOT just acupuncture devoid of its

foudation. I spent a few months in a hospital in Harbin 3 summers ago doing

rounds in a teaching hospital...the native students seemed to have a lot of

animosity towards American outsiders...rightfully so considering there

struggle and living conditions...but like you said there are always good,

mediocre and poor represetatives in every situation...but overall I would

venture to generalize and say that the committment is gtreater and more

difficult than the average American wanting to learn TCM. I think if our

teaching standards were higher, licensure requirements greater, then the

level of student would escalate.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/28/00 8:53:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

yulong writes:

 

<<

Jason said something in a recent post that I find important

and distressing when he commented on the tendency in

American schools to alloy the subject of Chinese medicine

with other disciplines such as muscle testing, homeopathy,

and a wide range of other practices.

>>

 

I don't think Jason said the the schools are " alloying " the subject of

Chinese medicine with other disciplines; I think he said that practitioners,

in an effort to supplement their lack of understanding, are relaying on these

other modalities. No school I know of is teaching muscle testing or

homeopathy.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

As the subject has turned to Chinese medical education in China,

I thought I'd take a few moments to share a brief synopsis of what

takes place in at least one of the leading institutions of TCM education,

the Chengdu University of TCM. I studied and taught there from

1992 through 1998, not continuously but certainly long enough to

have developed a basic understanding of their programs and a good

feel for what was taking place around me. From '94-'96 I was a

visiting faculty member and taught a variety of courses from Medical

English to Translation of Chinese Medical Terms and Texts.

 

First of all, I learned by talking with a large number of students from

all over the world (France, England, Switzerland, Germany, Italy,

Mali, Sweden, and more countries) who had travelled around China

studying in various centers that Chengdu enjoys a reputation as the

most traditional of the schools of TCM.

 

Here is what the basic program consists of.

 

Most students study four to five years full time in order to complete

the equivalent of a Bacehlor's Degree. They specialize in either herbal

medicine, pharmacology, acupuncture, tui na, etc. and receive degrees

that certify them as practitioners of their chosen modality. Their education

includes virtually the same courses in medical science that students at

Chinese schools of Western medicine take. They take a course in

Ancient Medical Language which includes both an introduction to the

language and passages from various ancient texts.

 

Like most Chinese students that make it to college or university (only

10% or so of high school graduates), they tend to have impressive

study habits. The years they spend in medical school are comparable

in character to those spent studying medicine by American medical

students, i.e. immersed in the subject night and day. This impressed

me from the first day I arrived as one of the critical differences between

the way the Chinese educate their students in TCM from the way

we in the States do so.

 

Naturally, like students everywhere, there are good ones and bad ones.

Not everyone makes the grade. There is cheating, corruption of various

other kinds, endless hassles, backbiting, envy, jealousy...all in all a

fairly standard human environment, colored most definitely by the political

system in which is has developed.

 

Chengdu has an impressive faculty roster that includes several members

of family lineages of doctors. I don't recall the exact number, but there

are hundreds of seasoned doctors on the teaching faculty as well as the

staff of the attached teaching hospital.

 

Almost from the beginning of their education, students at Chengdu

spend time in clinic. By the second year they are, depending on their

chosen major, in clinic quite a bit. Here the question of demographics

becomes an important factor. It's hard to convey to people who have

never been to China what the effects and implications are of living

in a country of 1.3 billion people. In short, there are patients everywhere

and young medical students in Chengdu learn from the very beginning

that their role in life is to help people deal with their diseases and

injuries.

 

They do indeed all read English. Many of them speak English and

virtually all that I came in contact with wanted desperately to improve

their language skills.

 

I was truly inspired by the education occurring at the university.

I have visited other schools of TCM in China and though there are

obvious differences, which I won't go into, they all share a dedication

to not only the field of medicine but to the mission of helping people.

 

There are enormous problems. These problems would be

quite familiar to anyone who has spent any time in any university

anywhere and can be categorized as political, financial, inter-personal,

etc.

 

One very curious problem that has developed over the past

ten to fifteen years is the growing influx of students form other

countries who come to learn acupuncture. This has produced

a large income of foreign currency that has let the acupuncture

departments grow big and rich. For the most part, such

students come to study acupuncture because they don't

yet realize that it is one specialization and not the main subject.

 

I believe that this reflects misunderstandings of the subject of

Chinese medicine that have developed and served as the

basis of development of the subject here in the States as well

as in some other areas.

 

I am not a proponent of adopting the pedagogical

methods employed in Chinese schools of TCM. I think that

American students require a different approach. But we in

this country are a long, long way from the kind of committment

to excellence that I experienced in Chengdu, both on the part

of students and the faculty/administration. This is not a hit

on anybody here, merely a reporting of what to me is an

obvious fact.

 

I know very well that there are stellar practitioners and teachers

of the art in American schools. I know there are dedicated students

here, but such remain the exception and not the rule.

 

Jason said something in a recent post that I find important

and distressing when he commented on the tendency in

American schools to alloy the subject of Chinese medicine

with other disciplines such as muscle testing, homeopathy,

and a wide range of other practices.

 

Doesn't it seem like the most common of common sense to

know a subject BEFORE altering it? Don't we run a risk of

omitting critical components of a system if we don't invest

the time and effort and money to really understand it before

we get busy tailoring it to fit our personal predilections?

 

Ken

 

-

<GRCanning

 

Saturday, May 27, 2000 2:07 AM

Re: message for Flaws

 

 

>

> Z'ev, and Jason, et al,

>

> Let me also add here that when I was in China back in the 80's I saw a

broad

> variety of TCM practioners, some who were excellent, quite a few who were

of

> quite poor quality.

>

> In fact, the two most excellent practioners I had the good fortune to

observe

> were both quite different in their approaches.

>

> One was entirely Shan Han Lun in his orientation, and only used

modifications

> of SHL rx's. The other Dr. was just as likely to prescribe western meds in

> simple, or acute situations as he was to prescribe traditional herb

formulas

> for pts. with more complicated problems. Both were in their late

50's/early

> 60's.

>

> Perhaps things have changed in the PRC since then, but when I was there,

the

> mere fact of having been schooled in China did not seem to be a good

> predictor of quality, ability, or depth of practice.

>

> My impression was that there were some Chinese TCM programs that were

better

> than others, but even more important seemed to be the amount of time,

effort

> and study the individual Dr's. had put into learning their medicine, i.e.,

> studying the classics, reading many, many research reports, and clinical

case

> studies, seeking out other, more experienced " old doctors " they could

learn

> from, and traveling to wherever they were in order to visit and learn from

> them (not always an easy prospect in China, compared to the easy

availability

> of travel, and educational opportunities here in the US).

>

> Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think

> that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on

CHA

> is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical

Chinese "

> (as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth,

thorough,

> and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western

> Medicine than has been available up to now.

>

> It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC

> read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English

> conversationally.

>

> When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in

> order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the

> scientific and medical information that was not available in their native

> Chinese language, and that was only available in English.

>

> Seems like an important object lession.

>

> All the best,

>

> Bruce

>

>

> ------------------------------(original messages

> follow)

> Dear Jason,

> Without having directly experienced the Chinese schools, I would say

> that at various times there has been curtailment of open discourse on

many

> issues with TCM that may be politically charged, or that questions the

> government agenda for the schools. This certainly limits innovation and

> debate, and effects the quality of education.

> While there certainly is more clarity in many Chinese instructors than

> their Western counterparts, this is often based on Chinese language

> abilities. However, we see that this often does not translate into good

> communication skills in English. . ..such as in the jin gui yao

> lue/Prescriptions from the Golden Cabinet translation you mentioned in

the

> earlier post. I think you need to give some Western instructors credit

for

> their devotion to the craft, and their struggles to learn and teach a

> difficult subject, although I know your frustrations in specific

> circumstances.

>

>

> >

> >

> >Frankly, I am not inspired by the Chinese educational system

> > ?? Wow.. It is my understanding that Chinese medical schools are much

more

> >rigorous and thorough... I am American, and involved in the TCM

> >educational system currently here in the USA... And our schools are

somewhat

> >of a joke (currently, and yes they are getting better).. but they are

far

> >from being medical schools... They are 80% fluff... What do I base this

on:

> >1) Other graduate schools in the USA... (Medical and other) (i.e.

Graduate

> >prg.'s in philosophy require Latin and Greek for entrance) (people here

> >whine about learning a little Chinese let alone implementing into

prg.'s)

> >2) Comparing the supervisors from China and the supervisors who have

> >graduated from schools here in the states. There is not even a

comparison.

> >The amount of knowledge and clarity that the Chinese supers/teachers is

> >night and day.. except for a select few who have studied way beyond

their

> >schooling (i.e. Z'ev)

> >3) In China they study here, well who knows what people are doing... and

yes

> >there are always exceptions... and yes I could be part of the grass is

> >greener illusion.

> >4) I find people here supplement their lack of knowledge with

> >pseudo-esoteric philosophies (none TCM based theories) creating a whole

new

> >system (i.e. muscle testing etc.) (which is interesting but not TCM),

while

> >it seems Chinese pract/ teachers are just very strong in TCM.. I don't

know

> >if this is good or not, just making an observation.

> >

> >-JAson

> >

> >

>

>

>

> ------

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> http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959380640/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

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>

> ------

> Missing old school friends? Find them here:

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> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

I appreciate the information of Chengdu's educational system . As an

educator at PCOM, I realize we're not at that level yet. However, I will say

that over a 15 year period of time I've seen great changes in

availability of translated texts, continued education opportunities by

well-versed western TCM practitioners (and better class structure and

teachers within PCOM.)I think one mistake that is made by any educator is

feeling that he/she knows enough, or believes themselves a master of TCM.

Once one gets into a false " comfort zone " , learning more depths and

new(translationally & otherwise)TCM information halts. There is so much

richness in the " classics " to draw from, no supervisor or teacher should

ever become complacent in their own education that they stop studying. I see

alot of very dedicated students go through PCOM. I also see alot of students

looking for a quick and easy ride and spend alot of time complaining about

the effort that is expected of them. Unfortunatly, these students often

finish and somehow and get out into the " real world " and set a negative

premise for those that are truly dedicated to this craft. I agree that

teaching standards must be higher(which I must hold myself accountable for)

and license requirements should be greater as well as more stringent

requirements on acceptance into the school system to step up the level of

students applying. I feel fortunate to be at a college that is always

striving for better education for the students. I would also like to thank

people like Bob Flaws and Wiseman (and more) who have translated important

texts so that my understanding has grown. When I started in '84' there was

barely a handful of books in which to learn. Best in health, Shelly

 

>acuschiff

>

>

>Re: Chinese medical education

>Sun, 28 May 2000 12:07:31 EDT

>

>Interesting perspective and very well expressed. I experience the

> " acupuncture dilemma " all the time. I believe we truely need to teach our

>patients that we practice chinese medicine and all that it embraces...at

>the

>same time practice chinese medicine and NOT just acupuncture devoid of its

>foudation. I spent a few months in a hospital in Harbin 3 summers ago

>doing

>rounds in a teaching hospital...the native students seemed to have a lot of

>animosity towards American outsiders...rightfully so considering there

>struggle and living conditions...but like you said there are always good,

>mediocre and poor represetatives in every situation...but overall I would

>venture to generalize and say that the committment is gtreater and more

>difficult than the average American wanting to learn TCM. I think if our

>teaching standards were higher, licensure requirements greater, then the

>level of student would escalate.

 

______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Julie,

 

Practitioners come out of schools. And though

it may well be that no extant official curriculum

offers these other subjects, if students graduate

and become practitioners who alloy the subject

then the schools simply must take responsibility

for this phenomenon. If I were running a school

of Chinese medicine and my students graduated

and went out and started doing a lot of other things

I would have to conclude that I hadn't really taught

them the art of Chinese medicine well enough so that

they could achieve routinely good results with those

modalities that constitute Chinese medicine.

 

I would suspend their certificates and recall them.

I would review their education and determine where

their misunderstandings lay and where they still had

weaknesses that they felt they had to bolster with

other practices.

 

Do we agree that the current practice of Chinese

medicine is rife with other practices?

 

Where else does it come from than the schools?

Into what vacuum of skill does it enter than the

one left by the schools?

 

I have often heard teachers at acupuncture schools

making reference to various other modalities from

outside the scope of Chinese medicine. Whether or

not the schools officially include these in their curricula

is not the point. What is really happening is the point.

 

From my own observation, schools of Chinese medicine

in this country are full of both students and teachers who

have a wide array of interests and pursuits, many of which

fall way beyond the scope of Chinese medicine.

 

I'm not saying that such interests and pursuits are wrong.

Perhaps they are powerful and wonderful. I have not spent

much time pursuing them. And I do not mean to challenge

their efficacy, only to point out that they are not Chinese

medicine.

 

What the schools have to do is up the level of demand

that students learn what they nominally offer, and this

includes, I believe, being somewhat more intolerant

of the sort of alloying of the subject to which Jason

made very clear reference.

 

Of course, in order to make such demands, the schools

also have to offer substantive courses and materials that

will provide a standard of instruction and examination

that will ensure fundamental levels of competence such

that other practices are not required in order to deal

with the clinical realities that graduates face.

 

Ken

 

 

-

<juliej8

 

Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:50 AM

Re: Chinese medical education

 

 

> In a message dated 5/28/00 8:53:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> yulong writes:

>

> <<

> Jason said something in a recent post that I find important

> and distressing when he commented on the tendency in

> American schools to alloy the subject of Chinese medicine

> with other disciplines such as muscle testing, homeopathy,

> and a wide range of other practices.

> >>

>

> I don't think Jason said the the schools are " alloying " the subject of

> Chinese medicine with other disciplines; I think he said that

practitioners,

> in an effort to supplement their lack of understanding, are relaying on

these

> other modalities. No school I know of is teaching muscle testing or

> homeopathy.

>

> Julie Chambers

>

> ------

> Missing old school friends? Find them here:

> http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959536270/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Shelly,

 

I couldn't agree with your call to end complacency

more strongly. I also agree that the scene has come

a long way in the past several years. And I give thanks

for the work of people like Bob and Nigel who have

devoted so much time and effort to providing a material

foundation for future study.

 

Personally, I am quite optimistic about the future of

the field.

 

But if the opportunities of the present are to turn into

reality, people will have to pay close attention to the

pitfalls you describe so clearly.

 

Ken

-

shelly Krahn <webkrahn

 

Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:27 AM

Re: Chinese medical education

 

 

> Dear Ken,

> I appreciate the information of Chengdu's educational system . As an

> educator at PCOM, I realize we're not at that level yet. However, I will

say

> that over a 15 year period of time I've seen great changes in

> availability of translated texts, continued education opportunities by

> well-versed western TCM practitioners (and better class structure and

> teachers within PCOM.)I think one mistake that is made by any educator is

> feeling that he/she knows enough, or believes themselves a master of TCM.

> Once one gets into a false " comfort zone " , learning more depths and

> new(translationally & otherwise)TCM information halts. There is so much

> richness in the " classics " to draw from, no supervisor or teacher should

> ever become complacent in their own education that they stop studying. I

see

> alot of very dedicated students go through PCOM. I also see alot of

students

> looking for a quick and easy ride and spend alot of time complaining about

> the effort that is expected of them. Unfortunatly, these students often

> finish and somehow and get out into the " real world " and set a negative

> premise for those that are truly dedicated to this craft. I agree that

> teaching standards must be higher(which I must hold myself accountable

for)

> and license requirements should be greater as well as more stringent

> requirements on acceptance into the school system to step up the level of

> students applying. I feel fortunate to be at a college that is always

> striving for better education for the students. I would also like to thank

> people like Bob Flaws and Wiseman (and more) who have translated important

> texts so that my understanding has grown. When I started in '84' there was

> barely a handful of books in which to learn. Best in health, Shelly

>

> >acuschiff

> >

> >

> >Re: Chinese medical education

> >Sun, 28 May 2000 12:07:31 EDT

> >

> >Interesting perspective and very well expressed. I experience the

> > " acupuncture dilemma " all the time. I believe we truely need to teach

our

> >patients that we practice chinese medicine and all that it embraces...at

> >the

> >same time practice chinese medicine and NOT just acupuncture devoid of

its

> >foudation. I spent a few months in a hospital in Harbin 3 summers ago

> >doing

> >rounds in a teaching hospital...the native students seemed to have a lot

of

> >animosity towards American outsiders...rightfully so considering there

> >struggle and living conditions...but like you said there are always good,

> >mediocre and poor represetatives in every situation...but overall I would

> >venture to generalize and say that the committment is gtreater and more

> >difficult than the average American wanting to learn TCM. I think if our

> >teaching standards were higher, licensure requirements greater, then the

> >level of student would escalate.

>

> ______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>

> ------

> Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.

> Remember the good 'ol days

> http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/959534861/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

[Guest guest]

Julie

 

then why are california legislators currently being lobbied to add

homeopathy to your acupuncture scope of practice ?

 

, juliej8@a... wrote:

No school I know of is teaching muscle testing or

> homeopathy.

>

> Julie Chamber

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken. Bless your heart, you are idealistic, and that's admirable. But, I

have a few responses: practitioners do not " come from schools " . Practitioners

come from the world at large, and they land at schools with many interests,

goals and agendas. Some (very few, I would say, at least at Yo San) arrive

with a predetermined idea of what or how they want to practice, and they will

use their L.Ac. as a means to practice that (not unlike NDs who become DCs in

California so that they can practice naturopathic medicine under a licensed

profession). We do not have the right or the ability to " take away their

certificate and recall them " !

 

Otherwise, I agree with everything you say, and I have heard our own

instructors scold interns who were intent on advising patients to have all

their fillings removed, or who would recommend homeopathic remedies that

" this is not Chinese medicine. " And I have heard our own students challenge

an instructor who did talk about muscle-testing or candida. So, I think we do

a good job of remaining as pure as possible. Be that as it may, people will

still try to incorporate other modalities once they are out in the world of

practice.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

I am against that movement (including homeopathy to the scope of

practice in California) on the grounds that it is NOT taught in the schools,

and I have expressed that opinion to the Acupuncture Board. To me, this is as

wrong as DCs trying to practice " chiropractic acupuncture " . Doctors of

homeopathy have a completely different training and they alone should be

allowed to practice it.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

Just a though,

Isn't most of the Chinese TCM students in China right out of high school.

And most if not all American TCM Students right out of mid-life crisis?

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

[Guest guest]

To all: can chiropractors practice homeopathy in California? What about

elsewhere? Are they harrassed if they do?

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/28/00 8:20:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

creationsgarden writes:

 

<<

Many instructors, especially those teachinge western biosciences in

acupuncture schools have little or no exposure to acupuncture (even as

patients), thus missing the chance to suggest possible mechanisms of

meridian flow, pharmokinetics of herbs or proximity of structures to

acupoints. And of course the texts don't contain that information

either. >>

 

Two points: we try to get western biomedicine instructors who do have a

strong interest in Chinese medicine, and three of our current and/or recent

faculty members are concurrently MDs and students of Chinese medicine. Their

teaching, hence, is on the order of " awesome " . Secondly, a California school

was recently given a hard time by ACAOM when their biomedical courses were

found to include material on integrating TCM and biomedicine, on the grounds

that such integration " diluted " or " reduced " the hours in their program that

were allocated to western bioscience. Not that integration was seen as a bad

thing, it just couldn't be substituted for pure western medical training.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Julie I agree. Except one does not need a license to practice Homeopathy in

the United States. What I am against is the AB singling out acupuncturist.

Currently only an acupuncturist - presumably/hopefully qualified in

Homeopathy is at risk for practicing that art. In California massage

therapist " prescribe " herbs, do Chinese medicine " acupressure " , do

" non-chiropractic adjustments " and one may or may not even need a business

license depending on the county not the state for enforcement. Oh and they

do Homeopathy too. Oh and they bill insurance companies also.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

 

 

 

I am against that movement (including homeopathy to the scope of

practice in California) on the grounds that it is NOT taught in the schools,

and I have expressed that opinion to the Acupuncture Board. To me, this is

as

wrong as DCs trying to practice " chiropractic acupuncture " . Doctors of

homeopathy have a completely different training and they alone should be

allowed to practice it.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

While there are some licensed practitioners of Chinese medicine who are

well-trained in other disciplines, many new graduates do seem to gravitate

to muscle testing, combination homeopathics and the like, to 'fill a gap',

so to speak. I find that the students who are really clear about what they

want to study will fill their own gaps, studying Chinese on their own,

reading more classical texts, or taking many pulses any day. The burden

isn't entirely on the schools. . . ..it is also the self-motivation of the

students themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>In a message dated 5/28/00 8:53:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>yulong writes:

>

><<

> Jason said something in a recent post that I find important

> and distressing when he commented on the tendency in

> American schools to alloy the subject of Chinese medicine

> with other disciplines such as muscle testing, homeopathy,

> and a wide range of other practices.

> >>

>

>I don't think Jason said the the schools are " alloying " the subject of

>Chinese medicine with other disciplines; I think he said that practitioners,

>in an effort to supplement their lack of understanding, are relaying on these

>other modalities. No school I know of is teaching muscle testing or

>homeopathy.

>

>Julie Chambers

>

>------

>Missing old school friends? Find them here:

>http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959536270/

>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

<<I would suspend their certificates and recall them.

I would review their education and determine where

their misunderstandings lay and where they still had

weaknesses that they felt they had to bolster with

other practices.>>

 

A high proportion of the students I see studying acupuncture have been in

one healing field or another for some time before enrolling in oriental

medicine. It is not reasonable to suppose that a chiropractor or

homeopath who gets a degree in oriental medicine will cease to use a

modality he has found of real benefit to patients while also treating

them with acupuncture. True, this should be labled for what it is. But

the bottom line is that patients come looking for improvements in health,

not orthodoxy.

 

<<From my own observation, schools of Chinese medicine

in this country are full of both students and teachers who

have a wide array of interests and pursuits, many of which

fall way beyond the scope of Chinese medicine.>>

 

Many instructors, especially those teachinge western biosciences in

acupuncture schools have little or no exposure to acupuncture (even as

patients), thus missing the chance to suggest possible mechanisms of

meridian flow, pharmokinetics of herbs or proximity of structures to

acupoints. And of course the texts don't contain that information

either.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are

not cherished'.- Sun Si Miao

 

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[Guest guest]

Ed,

 

Many of the Bachelor's Degree students are indeed right

out of high school in China, at least in Chengdu. The Master's

candidates typically have a little post-Bachelor experience

working in clinic or pharmacy, though many continue right

on past their Bachelor's onto their Master's. The Master's

degree, depending on discipline, usually takes 2-3 years

after the Bachelor's. Doctoral candidates tend to be

veteran clinicians, at least the ones I had the privilege to

know and teach and study with. The Doctoral degree

takes an additional 4-6 years and involves intense

concentration on a specific topic or area.

 

Lots of these people experience a wide range of crises

in their lives. Many of the doctoral students, like many

of the professors and veteran doctors, spent much of

their adult lives in the Cultural Revolution. Now there's

a mid-life crisis for you.

 

Your post and Z'ev's makes me think about the importance

of metriculation of students, and here again we end up with

the responsibility falling squarely on the shoulders of the teachers

and administrators who operate the schools.

 

Julie says I'm idealistic. Hey, we're talking about the training

of individuals who may well have people's lives in their hands.

I think we can all afford an ideal or two. No?

 

When all is said and done, clinical efficacy can only be

reasonably expected to emerge from well trained hands.

It's not an accident. It's not an act of nature or an inalienable

right. It's a skill that must be brought to life in each and

every generation. These are not my ideals, although I try

and let them inform my life. They are the ideals of generations

of Chinese medical doctors. They constitute the soil from

which the subject we have inherited grows.

 

Ken

 

-

HappyHerbalist.com <Health

 

Sunday, May 28, 2000 3:26 PM

RE: Chinese medical education

 

 

> Just a though,

> Isn't most of the Chinese TCM students in China right out of high school.

> And most if not all American TCM Students right out of mid-life crisis?

>

> Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

>

>

> ------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.

> http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959552073/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Julie,

 

And bless your heart, too. I think the way to measure up the ideals

one wants to embrace when it comes to the education of doctors

is simply to ask, again and again as needed, how well educated

one would like the doctor who is working on oneself to be.

 

> Hi Ken. Bless your heart, you are idealistic, and that's admirable. But, I

> have a few responses: practitioners do not " come from schools " .

Practitioners

> come from the world at large, and they land at schools with many

interests,

> goals and agendas. Some (very few, I would say, at least at Yo San) arrive

> with a predetermined idea of what or how they want to practice, and they

will

> use their L.Ac. as a means to practice that (not unlike NDs who become DCs

in

> California so that they can practice naturopathic medicine under a

licensed

> profession). We do not have the right or the ability to " take away their

> certificate and recall them " !

 

If schools set high standards and demanded students measure up

then graduates would flaunt their association and we would agree

that practitioners come from schools, just as we take note of

allopathic physicians that come from Harvard Medical School,

Johns Hopkins, and the like. It is the school that sets the standards

not the students. It is the business of the school to turn the qualified

student into a representative of the school's standards. It's rather

similar to the establishment and maintenance of any brand name.

 

I read your remark as evidence of the absence of such a situation.

 

 

> Otherwise, I agree with everything you say,

 

This is dangerous.

 

and I have heard our own

> instructors scold interns who were intent on advising patients to have all

> their fillings removed, or who would recommend homeopathic remedies that

> " this is not Chinese medicine. " And I have heard our own students

challenge

> an instructor who did talk about muscle-testing or candida. So, I think we

do

> a good job of remaining as pure as possible. Be that as it may, people

will

> still try to incorporate other modalities once they are out in the world

of

> practice.

 

In the end I'm not at all concerned about what people will do as long

as those who proclaim themselves to be purveyors of Chinese medicine

are well engough trained and skilled to be able to dispense its fairly

miraculous benefits. We live in a very sick world.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

not all, but too true, anyway.

 

, " HappyHerbalist.com "

<Health@H...> wrote:

> Just a though,

> Isn't most of the Chinese TCM students in China right out of high

school.

> And most if not all American TCM Students right out of mid-life

crisis?

>

> Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, Califor

[Guest guest]

Hi Karen,

>

> A high proportion of the students I see studying acupuncture have been in

> one healing field or another for some time before enrolling in oriental

> medicine. It is not reasonable to suppose that a chiropractor or

> homeopath who gets a degree in oriental medicine will cease to use a

> modality he has found of real benefit to patients while also treating

> them with acupuncture.

 

Yes. Good point.

 

> True, this should be labled for what it is. But

> the bottom line is that patients come looking for improvements in health,

> not orthodoxy.

 

I think the bottom line can be stated that a graduate of a training program

in Chinese medicine should be competent and capable of producing

routine results in patients using the theories and modalities of Chinese

medicine. The subject of how these theories and modalities are best

integrated with and into other regimens of health care is, strictly and

properly speaking, a different subject. My sense of the current scene

is that much of the alloying of Chinese medicine with other practices

is due to the lack of such routine skill. As I've said before, I am still

just getting acquainted with the current scene here. So as always I am

happy to hear divergent points of view.

 

Patients do indeed come looking for improvements in their health.

Those who are trained and licensed to practice Chinese medicine

should, strictly speaking, be capable of delivering those improvements

by means of Chinese medicine.

 

I don't know, doesn't that just make sense? Or am I beling an

Orientalist again?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev,

 

> While there are some licensed practitioners of Chinese medicine who are

> well-trained in other disciplines, many new graduates do seem to gravitate

> to muscle testing, combination homeopathics and the like, to 'fill a gap',

> so to speak. I find that the students who are really clear about what

they

> want to study will fill their own gaps, studying Chinese on their own,

> reading more classical texts, or taking many pulses any day. The burden

> isn't entirely on the schools. . . ..it is also the self-motivation of the

> students themselves.

 

Certainly the success of any individual student depends first and foremost

on that studen'ts capacity and character. But it is the SOLE responsibility

of

those who set the standards for metriculation of students INTO training

programs to see to it that those who are not qualified are not be

admitted. This can be dismissed as either idealism or unreality, given

that the schools are businesses and can't afford to turn business away

simply because student X lacks the moral fiber to be a doctor.

 

But would you want student X to be your doctor?

 

Quality cannot be pretended. You know how you know the good doctors

in China? There are people lined up outside their clinics. And every one

of the truly great doctors I've ever met in China has told me that they

owe it all to their teachers.

 

And I believe them. People like yourself who have taken up the burden

of teaching cannot be praised highly enough, for it is an awesome

responsibility.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/28/00 2:56:22 PM, herb-t writes:

 

<< Julie

 

then why are california legislators currently being lobbied to add

homeopathy to your acupuncture scope of practice ? >>

 

There are schools who teach it as an elective, because it is. It sould be in

the History of Medicine classes because it is an important part of US medical

history.

Legislators are being asked because the CA board at one time threatened to

take away acupuncture licenses from those who use homeopathy in their

practice, regardless of their homeopathy training. This was felt to be unjust

by the professional organizations, except for one or two who wish to remain

in the past with their anti-homeopathy biased training. It was not to be a

requirement, but an option, but some people don't like medical freedom or

options for others, so homeopathy was removed from the bill a short while ago.

DAvid Molony

[Guest guest]

Beyond the commitment of most students and most teachers (in America) to

excel. And a public thirst - something happens. Its like we have all the

ingredients there ... BUT

 

In July I will be going to Tian Jin China and have the opportunity (again)

of clinical practice with my teachers teacher.

 

Any Advice / suggestions / requests to bring back something form cohorts out

there?

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

private responses OK

eddy

 

 

Cosmic Dragon LLC [yulong]

Sunday, May 28, 2000 8:44 PM

 

Re: Chinese medical education

 

 

Ed,

 

Many of the Bachelor's Degree students are indeed right

out of high school in China, at least in Chengdu. The Master's

candidates typically have a little post-Bachelor experience

working in clinic or pharmacy, though many continue right

on past their Bachelor's onto their Master's. The Master's

degree, depending on discipline, usually takes 2-3 years

after the Bachelor's. Doctoral candidates tend to be

veteran clinicians, at least the ones I had the privilege to

know and teach and study with. The Doctoral degree

takes an additional 4-6 years and involves intense

concentration on a specific topic or area.

 

Lots of these people experience a wide range of crises

in their lives. Many of the doctoral students, like many

of the professors and veteran doctors, spent much of

their adult lives in the Cultural Revolution. Now there's

a mid-life crisis for you.

 

Your post and Z'ev's makes me think about the importance

of metriculation of students, and here again we end up with

the responsibility falling squarely on the shoulders of the teachers

and administrators who operate the schools.

 

Julie says I'm idealistic. Hey, we're talking about the training

of individuals who may well have people's lives in their hands.

I think we can all afford an ideal or two. No?

 

When all is said and done, clinical efficacy can only be

reasonably expected to emerge from well trained hands.

It's not an accident. It's not an act of nature or an inalienable

right. It's a skill that must be brought to life in each and

every generation. These are not my ideals, although I try

and let them inform my life. They are the ideals of generations

of Chinese medical doctors. They constitute the soil from

which the subject we have inherited grows.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Julie. There is an argument that homeopathy is more akin to TCM than other

professions that prescribe them (like medical doctors) or massage

practitioners. The fact is homeopathy is not regulated anywhere in the U.S.

There are also different schools of though as well.

 

I think the question should be " Can you create a homeopathic remedy out of

herbs? " and then 2. " Do you know what you are doing? " Of course underlining

all of this is " What are you attempting to do? " As a TCM practitioners. I

would ask " why don't you do what you know how to do - acupuncture and herbs "

and the Default answer (to me) would be " ... I never really learned it !!! "

 

There are other legitimate reasons to use homeopathy and not herbs. Lower

cost and maintenance of inventory. Much lower than even comparable TCM

Patents. Saves a lot of space and time not only in inventory but in putting

together bulk herb formula vs. a patent Rx. Patient compliance (try offering

a centipede to a veggie in Santa Cruz). More cost effective. More Money !

When I was in school my teachers would say " This is for the state boards,

it doesn't matter if its correct or not " " If you don't pass the boards you

don't practice period " . Homeopathy, et al, for some become " they don't make

money they don't practice period. "

 

Listing of Homeopathic web sites

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~progers/homeo.htm

 

 

BTW, I don't know homeopathy or practice it. Although I have used it

personally for my 2 1/2 year old daughter and my Golden Retriever

successfully. (neither truly appreciated acupuncture or herbs).

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

 

 

 

juliej8 [juliej8]

 

To all: can chiropractors practice homeopathy in California? What about

elsewhere? Are they harrassed if they do?

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

One does not " need " a formal education to be a herbalist or to practice

homeopathy.

Just because something is included in one's scope of practice doesn't mean

one can practice it. Under the law (in a court) you must prove your

credentials. To be a surgeon you must be a doctor, but not every doctor is

a surgeon - or a specialist in every field: when encountered with a

situation outside their field - even though their license may cover it -

they must refer out.

 

There are people who graduate from schools who do not know how to design a

formula, yet they pass their test and get a license.

There are people who study under a Acupuncturist/Herbalist (tutorial) who

know how to design a formula but can't pass the test and don't get a

license.

 

For the sake of American TCM we should strive to come together on what we

can agree upon and not our differences.

Hopefully we can help each other become better at whatever they are.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

 

 

juliej8 [juliej8]

Monday, May 29, 2000 6:02 PM

 

Re: Re: Chinese medical education

 

 

David, oh of course homeopathy is covered in the survey course on medical

history, but that is not enough knowledge to practice it! And even though

some schools offer it as an elective, I don't personally feel that is enough

training again, to practice it. as has one of our clinic supervisors,

then I think that person should be given immunity from the scope of practice

exclusion. Is this practical? If someone reported this person for practicing

outside his scope, he could submit his training credentials.

 

Julie Chambers, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

Hello Luke,

>

> Thank for your clarification.

 

Certainly. My pleasure.

 

> The situation you described originally re: your education and training and

> subsequent teaching in China is a recent historical development regarding

> the organization of education.

 

To further clarify, I wasn't describing my education, per se, but the system

that is in place in the universities of Chinese medicine in China. My own

training in China was divided between the University's teaching hospital

and a couple of private clinics of bone setters. I also spent a good deal of

time wandering around the countryside with people practicing local

traditions of medicine.

 

>

> Let me describe a bit of my own training to shed light on my perspective.

....

 

Thanks for this. It does help to understand one another's backgrounds.

 

Ken