Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Bob Flaws, If you posted an answer to my question about your usage of the word " Orientalist, " I missed it. My dictionary simply defines it as " a student of Eastern culture. " When you dispense with an argument or point of view by calling it " Orientalist, " what exactly do you mean? Ken " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without destroying both. " Thomas Jefferson - Robert Flaws <bobflaws Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:18 AM RE: Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > Luke, > > At this point in time, that's not my experience. It has been years since I > was unable to build a multi-pattern discrimination for a patient. I agree > that trying to fit some patients into a single pattern often does not work. > However, once you understand that most of our American patients present > with combinations of 5-10 patterns, then there is a huge amount of > variability in this system that can account for virtually anyone. The issue > is not fitting the patient into the system but building the system to fit > the patient. I believe that Chinese medical pattern discrimination has > those tools, and that is the beauty of this system. > > Bob > > > > [Original Message] > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz > > > > 05/31/2000 1:34:16 PM > > Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > Bob, > > > > As I am not nearly as well versed in TCM as you are, I was hoping to > > gain insight in this regard. It seems to me that sometimes the real > > presentation of a patient's dis-ease does not always neatly fit into > > the structures of a paradigm. > > > > Just a thought, > > > > luke > > > > > > , " Robert Flaws " <bobflaws@e...> > > wrote: > > > Luke, > > > > > > How about doing a Chinese medical pattern discrimination and basing > > > treatment on that? Just a thought. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > > > > > 05/31/2000 2:11:01 AM > > > > ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > Wed May 31, 2000 3:06am > > > > Can anyone help me here? > > > > > > > > > > > > My, this page is hopping! > > > > > > > > OK! I have 59 yr.old female patient with complaints as follow: > > > > > > > > 1.) severe fatigue (several years). > > > > 2.) weight gain > > > > 3.) edema in the lower extremities > > > > 4.) chest constriction, with " lump stone " manifestations, > > > > diffificulty swallowing and breathing, intermittent manifestation. > > > > > > > > 5.) generalized pain, esp. in the lower back, mid-back, arms, > > legs, > > > > and everywhere else! > > > > > > > > 6.) very depressed, " Everything is always wrong...... " > > > > > > > > History includes bilateral mastectomy (cancer) and complete > > > > hystorectomy. > > > > > > > > Pulses indicate tension at the right CHI position, head indicating > > > > taunt and wiry qualities at the organ level, midddle indicating > > > > spreading and knotting, Liver shows taunt and slippery quality at > > the > > > > organic liver tail position, throwing towards the head position of > > > > the GB, then into the opening position of the heart, and into the > > > > superficial layer of the stomach, moving into the Large intestine > > > > medidial superficial level, retaining a quality of slippery and > > taunt. > > > > > > > > Left Cun position is quite deplete, vacuous, or deficient, > > depending > > > > on your preference of vocabulary. > > > > > > > > San Jiao, Right upper CHI position level, Superficial is quite > > > > dormant, activity picks up at the middle level; suspect NVS mis- > > > > coordination with Ming Men, [read neuro-endocrine imbalance], seek > > > > counsel re: hypothalmus, pituitary, hypothyroid. [Note: sub- > > axillary > > > > temperature test substantiates these findings.] > > > > > > > > Recommend: GSDL labs re: comprehensive digestive profile, EFA > > > > profile, Comrehensie Female Hormone profile. > > > > > > > > I don't have much respect for tongue descriptions, and therefore I > > > > usually never look at it! > > > > > > > > So, any advise? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > luke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * About eGroups | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | No Spam! | > > > > International | Contact Us > > > > 1998-2000 eGroups, Inc. All rights reserved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > Hot off the press- summer's here! > > > > School's out and it's sizzling hot. Whether you're planning a > > > > graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party, > > > > shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration. > > > > http://click./1/4473/9/_/542111/_/959760659/ > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > > --- bobflaws@e... > > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > ------ > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959801655/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > --- bobflaws > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ------ > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959870115/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Ken, Sorry, I've been overwhelmed by the amount of messages in this forum. So I've had to distance myself from the whole thing. I have other fish to fry and I already can't find time enough each day to get all my work done. I apologize if you took my response as " dismissive " in any perjorative sense of that word. When I used the word Orientalist, I used it in its social sciences/anthropological/philosophical sense. I was first turned on to this use of the word by Volker Schied who used it to criticize some things that I had written (and perhaps rightly so at the time). From that point of view, it refers to a romantic idealization of Asian thought and culture as embodying a mystic knowledge superior to Western knowledge. When stated that way, it sounds a little stronger than I had intended in terms of a response to your opinions. However, from all of what I've read of yours and personal conversations we've had together, I do think that we relate to and value Chinese thought and culture differently. In my own case, I see this as a developmental stage. However, that's only in my own case. When I used this word, I was trying to disengage from our discussion (as well as others in this forum) as briefly and efficiently as possible without going into personal differences that allowed for the potential for ad hominem responses. I guess the use of the word " orientlaist " was ad hominem in any case. I did label what I felt to be your point of view. In that sense, I think our differences are just that, personal differences in life experiences and how we judge those experiences. That is also not to say that, on many subjects, we do seem to have the same or very similar opinions. I also think I'm still trying to figure out Netiquette and what is and is not a useful discussion to get into on-line. Sincerely, Bob > [Original Message] > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > 06/01/2000 9:04:38 AM > Re: Orientalism > > Bob Flaws, > > If you posted an answer to my question about > your usage of the word " Orientalist, " I missed it. > > My dictionary simply defines it as " a student of > Eastern culture. " When you dispense with an > argument or point of view by calling it " Orientalist, " > what exactly do you mean? > > Ken > > " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the > freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without > destroying both. " > Thomas Jefferson > > > - > Robert Flaws <bobflaws > > Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:18 AM > RE: Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > Luke, > > > > At this point in time, that's not my experience. It has been years since I > > was unable to build a multi-pattern discrimination for a patient. I agree > > that trying to fit some patients into a single pattern often does not > work. > > However, once you understand that most of our American patients present > > with combinations of 5-10 patterns, then there is a huge amount of > > variability in this system that can account for virtually anyone. The > issue > > is not fitting the patient into the system but building the system to fit > > the patient. I believe that Chinese medical pattern discrimination has > > those tools, and that is the beauty of this system. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz > > > > > > 05/31/2000 1:34:16 PM > > > Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > As I am not nearly as well versed in TCM as you are, I was hoping to > > > gain insight in this regard. It seems to me that sometimes the real > > > presentation of a patient's dis-ease does not always neatly fit into > > > the structures of a paradigm. > > > > > > Just a thought, > > > > > > luke > > > > > > > > > , " Robert Flaws " <bobflaws@e...> > > > wrote: > > > > Luke, > > > > > > > > How about doing a Chinese medical pattern discrimination and basing > > > > treatment on that? Just a thought. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > > > > > > > 05/31/2000 2:11:01 AM > > > > > ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > > Wed May 31, 2000 3:06am > > > > > Can anyone help me here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My, this page is hopping! > > > > > > > > > > OK! I have 59 yr.old female patient with complaints as follow: > > > > > > > > > > 1.) severe fatigue (several years). > > > > > 2.) weight gain > > > > > 3.) edema in the lower extremities > > > > > 4.) chest constriction, with " lump stone " manifestations, > > > > > diffificulty swallowing and breathing, intermittent manifestation. > > > > > > > > > > 5.) generalized pain, esp. in the lower back, mid-back, arms, > > > legs, > > > > > and everywhere else! > > > > > > > > > > 6.) very depressed, " Everything is always wrong...... " > > > > > > > > > > History includes bilateral mastectomy (cancer) and complete > > > > > hystorectomy. > > > > > > > > > > Pulses indicate tension at the right CHI position, head indicating > > > > > taunt and wiry qualities at the organ level, midddle indicating > > > > > spreading and knotting, Liver shows taunt and slippery quality at > > > the > > > > > organic liver tail position, throwing towards the head position of > > > > > the GB, then into the opening position of the heart, and into the > > > > > superficial layer of the stomach, moving into the Large intestine > > > > > medidial superficial level, retaining a quality of slippery and > > > taunt. > > > > > > > > > > Left Cun position is quite deplete, vacuous, or deficient, > > > depending > > > > > on your preference of vocabulary. > > > > > > > > > > San Jiao, Right upper CHI position level, Superficial is quite > > > > > dormant, activity picks up at the middle level; suspect NVS mis- > > > > > coordination with Ming Men, [read neuro-endocrine imbalance], seek > > > > > counsel re: hypothalmus, pituitary, hypothyroid. [Note: sub- > > > axillary > > > > > temperature test substantiates these findings.] > > > > > > > > > > Recommend: GSDL labs re: comprehensive digestive profile, EFA > > > > > profile, Comrehensie Female Hormone profile. > > > > > > > > > > I don't have much respect for tongue descriptions, and therefore I > > > > > usually never look at it! > > > > > > > > > > So, any advise? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > luke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * About eGroups | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | No Spam! | > > > > > International | Contact Us > > > > > 1998-2000 eGroups, Inc. All rights reserved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > Hot off the press- summer's here! > > > > > School's out and it's sizzling hot. Whether you're planning a > > > > > graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party, > > > > > shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration. > > > > > http://click./1/4473/9/_/542111/_/959760659/ > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > > > --- bobflaws@e... > > > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > > http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959801655/ > > > ------ > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > --- bobflaws > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > ------ > > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > > http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959870115/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > ------ > fnCentral.com cuts the cable. Come see how to be free! > Use the web's first fully integrated personal finance manager > from any PC, Palm, phone. OPEN A FREE ACCOUNT NOW. > http://click./1/4624/9/_/542111/_/959871869/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > --- Robert Flaws --- bobflaws --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Bob, As I said earlier, no apology is needed. I pressed the point only to clarify the use of the word. Nor do I feel that so-called ad hominen arguments or attacks are ipso facto illegitimate. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the character and integrity of individuals, their personal beliefs opinions, and so on are every bit as important as the integrity of their arguments when it comes to the study and practice of traditional Chinese medicine. As you know, I am a student of Chinese boxing, specifically Taijiquan. In boxing, the only way we ever come to know an opponent is by receiving his or her attack. Just as such encounters are vital to one's development in boxing arts, so are the vigorous exchanges of arguments a vital aspect of the development of our thinking, I believe. Netiquette notwithstanding I welcome and invite you and all others to attack me whenever it seems appropriate. Someone once asked Cheng Man Ching, the great Taiji boxer, whether or not there weren't other systems of fighting that were as effective or more effective than Taiji. " If I knew of one, " replied the old man, " I'd study it. " Perhaps my study of Chinese medicine and culture is just a phase I'm going through. I'll have to wait and see. But while I'm in this phase I find it best to clarify issues...not to mention words...to the best of my ability. And it is certainly true that I am guilty of romantic idealization of at least one Chinese. Ken " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without destroying both. " Thomas Jefferson - Robert Flaws <bobflaws Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:13 AM Re: Orientalism > Ken, > > Sorry, I've been overwhelmed by the amount of messages in this forum. So > I've had to distance myself from the whole thing. I have other fish to fry > and I already can't find time enough each day to get all my work done. I > apologize if you took my response as " dismissive " in any perjorative sense > of that word. > > When I used the word Orientalist, I used it in its social > sciences/anthropological/philosophical sense. I was first turned on to this > use of the word by Volker Schied who used it to criticize some things that > I had written (and perhaps rightly so at the time). From that point of > view, it refers to a romantic idealization of Asian thought and culture as > embodying a mystic knowledge superior to Western knowledge. When stated > that way, it sounds a little stronger than I had intended in terms of a > response to your opinions. However, from all of what I've read of yours and > personal conversations we've had together, I do think that we relate to and > value Chinese thought and culture differently. In my own case, I see this > as a developmental stage. However, that's only in my own case. > > When I used this word, I was trying to disengage from our discussion (as > well as others in this forum) as briefly and efficiently as possible > without going into personal differences that allowed for the potential for > ad hominem responses. I guess the use of the word " orientlaist " was ad > hominem in any case. I did label what I felt to be your point of view. In > that sense, I think our differences are just that, personal differences in > life experiences and how we judge those experiences. That is also not to > say that, on many subjects, we do seem to have the same or very similar > opinions. > > I also think I'm still trying to figure out Netiquette and what is and is > not a useful discussion to get into on-line. > > Sincerely, > > Bob > > > [Original Message] > > Cosmic Dragon LLC <yulong > > > > 06/01/2000 9:04:38 AM > > Re: Orientalism > > > > Bob Flaws, > > > > If you posted an answer to my question about > > your usage of the word " Orientalist, " I missed it. > > > > My dictionary simply defines it as " a student of > > Eastern culture. " When you dispense with an > > argument or point of view by calling it " Orientalist, " > > what exactly do you mean? > > > > Ken > > > > " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the > > freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without > > destroying both. " > > Thomas Jefferson > > > > > > - > > Robert Flaws <bobflaws > > > > Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:18 AM > > RE: Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > > Luke, > > > > > > At this point in time, that's not my experience. It has been years > since I > > > was unable to build a multi-pattern discrimination for a patient. I > agree > > > that trying to fit some patients into a single pattern often does not > > work. > > > However, once you understand that most of our American patients present > > > with combinations of 5-10 patterns, then there is a huge amount of > > > variability in this system that can account for virtually anyone. The > > issue > > > is not fitting the patient into the system but building the system to > fit > > > the patient. I believe that Chinese medical pattern discrimination has > > > those tools, and that is the beauty of this system. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz > > > > > > > > 05/31/2000 1:34:16 PM > > > > Re: ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > As I am not nearly as well versed in TCM as you are, I was hoping to > > > > gain insight in this regard. It seems to me that sometimes the real > > > > presentation of a patient's dis-ease does not always neatly fit into > > > > the structures of a paradigm. > > > > > > > > Just a thought, > > > > > > > > luke > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Robert Flaws " <bobflaws@e...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Luke, > > > > > > > > > > How about doing a Chinese medical pattern discrimination and basing > > > > > treatment on that? Just a thought. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > > > > > > > > > 05/31/2000 2:11:01 AM > > > > > > ok, i'm human and i need help. > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke Klincewicz <l.klincewicz@w...> > > > > > > Wed May 31, 2000 3:06am > > > > > > Can anyone help me here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My, this page is hopping! > > > > > > > > > > > > OK! I have 59 yr.old female patient with complaints as follow: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) severe fatigue (several years). > > > > > > 2.) weight gain > > > > > > 3.) edema in the lower extremities > > > > > > 4.) chest constriction, with " lump stone " manifestations, > > > > > > diffificulty swallowing and breathing, intermittent manifestation. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5.) generalized pain, esp. in the lower back, mid-back, arms, > > > > legs, > > > > > > and everywhere else! > > > > > > > > > > > > 6.) very depressed, " Everything is always wrong...... " > > > > > > > > > > > > History includes bilateral mastectomy (cancer) and complete > > > > > > hystorectomy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulses indicate tension at the right CHI position, head indicating > > > > > > taunt and wiry qualities at the organ level, midddle indicating > > > > > > spreading and knotting, Liver shows taunt and slippery quality at > > > > the > > > > > > organic liver tail position, throwing towards the head position of > > > > > > the GB, then into the opening position of the heart, and into the > > > > > > superficial layer of the stomach, moving into the Large intestine > > > > > > medidial superficial level, retaining a quality of slippery and > > > > taunt. > > > > > > > > > > > > Left Cun position is quite deplete, vacuous, or deficient, > > > > depending > > > > > > on your preference of vocabulary. > > > > > > > > > > > > San Jiao, Right upper CHI position level, Superficial is quite > > > > > > dormant, activity picks up at the middle level; suspect NVS mis- > > > > > > coordination with Ming Men, [read neuro-endocrine imbalance], seek > > > > > > counsel re: hypothalmus, pituitary, hypothyroid. [Note: sub- > > > > axillary > > > > > > temperature test substantiates these findings.] > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommend: GSDL labs re: comprehensive digestive profile, EFA > > > > > > profile, Comrehensie Female Hormone profile. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have much respect for tongue descriptions, and therefore I > > > > > > usually never look at it! > > > > > > > > > > > > So, any advise? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > luke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * About eGroups | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | No Spam! | > > > > > > International | Contact Us > > > > > > 1998-2000 eGroups, Inc. All rights reserved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > Hot off the press- summer's here! > > > > > > School's out and it's sizzling hot. Whether you're planning a > > > > > > graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party, > > > > > > shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration. > > > > > > http://click./1/4473/9/_/542111/_/959760659/ > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > > > > --- bobflaws@e... > > > > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > > > http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959801655/ > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > > > --- bobflaws > > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > > > http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959870115/ > > > ------ > > > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > > > > ------ > > fnCentral.com cuts the cable. Come see how to be free! > > Use the web's first fully integrated personal finance manager > > from any PC, Palm, phone. OPEN A FREE ACCOUNT NOW. > > http://click./1/4624/9/_/542111/_/959871869/ > > ------ > > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > > > --- Robert Flaws > --- bobflaws > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ------ > Buy Long Distance with your GROUP and SAVE!!! > http://click./1/4123/9/_/542111/_/959873386/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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