Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Hi Z'ev, Yes, all the dictionaries and glossaries I have seen (including Wiseman & Feng) all seem very " afflicted " ( and I also have several). Something better would be nice. Perhaps what is needed is to create our own dictionaries and glossaries, appropriate to modern vernacular American-English, as well as to a professional, alternative medical practice in our modern, western health care environment. This could certainly incorporate Wiseman & Fengs denotative (literal) translation of the chinese characters, as well as more flexible, professionally appropriate and actually readable and understandable(connotative) translation sets. Kind of a " Primmer " concept like they used to have in the 1800's for teaching English in one room school houses to a broad group of children, of varying ages, apptitudes, and levels of English ability and experience. This concept seemed to work well for them, for if you have ever read any of the " letters back home " from civil wars soldiers (from both sides of the conflict) they not only seem quite literate, and well written in general, but they actually seem to have been much better educated in the English language than most modern students and adults. Perhaps they were on to something conceptually that we can adapt to our " problem " . I am not sure what the count of basic TCM terms and phrases would be to enable a basic level of competence in reading medical Chinese ( one thousand characters and phrases?, two thousand?, three? I am not sure what the actual number would be, but it would certainly be possible to find out), again, perhaps Bob Flaws has gone far ahead on all of this already, and actually has this data figured out. I know I would love to have such a " primmer " , with Han ZI (characters), Pin Yin, English, and stroke order look up tables, both literal and connotative explanations and translations, and preferably in a fairly large and bold type face (not getting any younger you know), and even better if it were also available with " Flash Cards " with the Chinese characters on one side, and the basic data set for translation on the other. Perhaps Bob has already done this, although I have not yet ordered his material on " Teaching Yourself to Read Medical Chinese " yet, so I am not sure exactly what he has compiled, although it seems like he may have made a really good start on all this already. All the best Z'ev, Bruce --------------------------------(original message follows)----- 05/27/2000 8:43:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time zrosenberg () Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > @</A> Dear Bruce, While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without glossaries and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese translations, and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential content of the original text. > > >Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think >that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA >is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical Chinese " >(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth, thorough, >and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western >Medicine than has been available up to now. > >It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC >read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English >conversationally. > >When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in >order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the >scientific and medical information that was not available in their native >Chinese language, and that was only available in English. > >Seems like an important object lession. > >All the best, > >Bruce > ------ Old school buds here: http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959485328/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-1195-959485328-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:43:44 -0400 Received: from ej. (ej. [208.50.144.75]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:43:10 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-1195-959485328-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.38] by ej. with NNFMP; 28 May 2000 03:42:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 12614 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO volt.electriciti.com) (216.240.160.252) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000 Received: from [216.240.161.115] (elec-240-161-115.ixpres.com [216.240.161.115]) by volt.electriciti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03343 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 20:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <v03007801b5564639738a@[216.240.161.115]> In-<c8.570577a.2660ea54 X-eGroups- " " <zrosenberg " " <zrosenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Sat, 27 May 2000 20:46:11 -0700 Re: message for Flaws Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 Bruce, I think you've got a good idea. As I've said before, I see the work Nigel and Feng Ye have done with the Dictionary to be a foundation. For a foundation to have meaning we need to build on it. In Who Can Ride the Dragon? we examine some of the building blocks that can be fit together to construct an infrastructure for developing understanding of the terminology and the theoretical and clinical issues that the terminology was devised to explain. We focus not on translation of terms per se for the most part (although the seventh chapter is a glossary, which does include definitions from the Practical Dictionary) but on transplantation of these critical elements form their native context to an English language based construct. So I can see a primer like the one you describe as having an important role to play. In fact, it reminds me of some of the material that the Chinese themselves have developed over the years as teaching aides. I started to work on Dragon because I wanted a book like that and couldn't find one. You may have to do the same. Ken " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without destroying both. " Thomas Jefferson - <GRCanning Friday, June 02, 2000 2:12 AM Re: message for Flaws/Reading basic Medical Chinese > Hi Z'ev, > > Yes, all the dictionaries and glossaries I have seen (including Wiseman & > Feng) all seem very " afflicted " ( and I also have several). Something better > would be nice. > > Perhaps what is needed is to create our own dictionaries and glossaries, > appropriate to modern vernacular American-English, as well as to a > professional, alternative medical practice in our modern, western health care > environment. > > This could certainly incorporate Wiseman & Fengs denotative (literal) > translation of the chinese characters, as well as more flexible, > professionally appropriate and actually readable and > understandable(connotative) translation sets. > > Kind of a " Primmer " concept like they used to have in the 1800's for > teaching English in one room school houses to a broad group of children, of > varying ages, apptitudes, and levels of English ability and experience. > > This concept seemed to work well for them, for if you have ever read any of > the " letters back home " from civil wars soldiers (from both sides of the > conflict) they not only seem quite literate, and well written in general, but > they actually seem to have been much better educated in the English language > than most modern students and adults. > > Perhaps they were on to something conceptually that we can adapt to our > " problem " . I am not sure what the count of basic TCM terms and phrases would > be to enable a basic level of competence in reading medical Chinese ( one > thousand characters and phrases?, two thousand?, three? I am not sure what > the actual number would be, but it would certainly be possible to find out), > again, perhaps Bob Flaws has gone far ahead on all of this already, and > actually has this data figured out. > > I know I would love to have such a " primmer " , with Han ZI (characters), Pin > Yin, English, and stroke order look up tables, both literal and connotative > explanations and translations, and preferably in a fairly large and bold type > face (not getting any younger you know), and even better if it were also > available with " Flash Cards " with the Chinese characters on one side, and the > basic data set for translation on the other. > > Perhaps Bob has already done this, although I have not yet ordered his > material on " Teaching Yourself to Read Medical Chinese " yet, so I am not sure > exactly what he has compiled, although it seems like he may have made a > really good start on all this already. > > > All the best Z'ev, > > Bruce > > --------------------------------(original message > follows)----- > > > > > 05/27/2000 8:43:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time > zrosenberg () > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > Dear Bruce, > While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn > medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to > translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven > Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant > job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without glossaries > and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other > alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese translations, > and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential > content of the original text. > > > > > > > > >Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think > >that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA > >is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical > Chinese " > >(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth, > thorough, > >and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western > >Medicine than has been available up to now. > > > >It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC > >read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English > >conversationally. > > > >When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in > >order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the > >scientific and medical information that was not available in their native > >Chinese language, and that was only available in English. > > > >Seems like an important object lession. > > > >All the best, > > > >Bruce > > > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959485328/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > <sentto-201013-1195-959485328-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) > by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:43:44 -0400 > Received: from ej. (ej. [208.50.144.75]) by > rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:43:10 -0400 > X-eGroups-Return: > sentto-201013-1195-959485328-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.38] by ej. with NNFMP; 28 May 2000 > 03:42:09 -0000 > Received: (qmail 12614 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 May 2000 > 03:42:07 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO volt.electriciti.com) (216.240.160.252) by mta1 > with SMTP; 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000 > Received: from [216.240.161.115] (elec-240-161-115.ixpres.com > [216.240.161.115]) by volt.electriciti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id > UAA03343 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 20:40:12 > -0700 (PDT) > Message-Id: <v03007801b5564639738a@[216.240.161.115]> > In-<c8.570577a.2660ea54 > > X-eGroups- " " <zrosenberg > " " <zrosenberg > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <-> > Sat, 27 May 2000 20:46:11 -0700 > > Re: message for Flaws > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> > > ------ > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. > Install today: > http://click./1/4874/9/_/542111/_/959937139/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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