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Hi Z'ev,

 

Yes, all the dictionaries and glossaries I have seen (including Wiseman &

Feng) all seem very " afflicted " ( and I also have several). Something better

would be nice.

 

Perhaps what is needed is to create our own dictionaries and glossaries,

appropriate to modern vernacular American-English, as well as to a

professional, alternative medical practice in our modern, western health care

environment.

 

This could certainly incorporate Wiseman & Fengs denotative (literal)

translation of the chinese characters, as well as more flexible,

professionally appropriate and actually readable and

understandable(connotative) translation sets.

 

Kind of a " Primmer " concept like they used to have in the 1800's for

teaching English in one room school houses to a broad group of children, of

varying ages, apptitudes, and levels of English ability and experience.

 

This concept seemed to work well for them, for if you have ever read any of

the " letters back home " from civil wars soldiers (from both sides of the

conflict) they not only seem quite literate, and well written in general, but

they actually seem to have been much better educated in the English language

than most modern students and adults.

 

Perhaps they were on to something conceptually that we can adapt to our

" problem " . I am not sure what the count of basic TCM terms and phrases would

be to enable a basic level of competence in reading medical Chinese ( one

thousand characters and phrases?, two thousand?, three? I am not sure what

the actual number would be, but it would certainly be possible to find out),

again, perhaps Bob Flaws has gone far ahead on all of this already, and

actually has this data figured out.

 

I know I would love to have such a " primmer " , with Han ZI (characters), Pin

Yin, English, and stroke order look up tables, both literal and connotative

explanations and translations, and preferably in a fairly large and bold type

face (not getting any younger you know), and even better if it were also

available with " Flash Cards " with the Chinese characters on one side, and the

basic data set for translation on the other.

 

Perhaps Bob has already done this, although I have not yet ordered his

material on " Teaching Yourself to Read Medical Chinese " yet, so I am not sure

exactly what he has compiled, although it seems like he may have made a

really good start on all this already.

 

 

All the best Z'ev,

 

Bruce

 

--------------------------------(original message

follows)-----

 

 

 

 

05/27/2000 8:43:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time

zrosenberg ()

Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >

@</A>

 

Dear Bruce,

While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn

medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to

translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven

Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant

job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without glossaries

and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other

alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese translations,

and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential

content of the original text.

 

 

>

>

>Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and think

>that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on CHA

>is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical

Chinese "

>(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth,

thorough,

>and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western

>Medicine than has been available up to now.

>

>It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the PRC

>read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English

>conversationally.

>

>When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them, in

>order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access the

>scientific and medical information that was not available in their native

>Chinese language, and that was only available in English.

>

>Seems like an important object lession.

>

>All the best,

>

>Bruce

>

 

 

 

------

Old school buds here:

http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959485328/

------

 

Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

 

 

 

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Bruce,

 

I think you've got a good idea. As I've said before, I see

the work Nigel and Feng Ye have done with the Dictionary

to be a foundation. For a foundation to have meaning

we need to build on it. In Who Can Ride the Dragon? we

examine some of the building blocks that can be fit together

to construct an infrastructure for developing understanding

of the terminology and the theoretical and clinical issues

that the terminology was devised to explain. We focus not on

translation of terms per se for the most part (although the seventh

chapter is a glossary, which does include definitions from

the Practical Dictionary) but on transplantation of these critical

elements form their native context to an English language based construct.

 

So I can see a primer like the one you describe as having

an important role to play. In fact, it reminds me of some of

the material that the Chinese themselves have developed over

the years as teaching aides.

 

I started to work on Dragon because I wanted a book like

that and couldn't find one. You may have to do the same.

 

Ken

 

 

" Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

destroying both. "

Thomas Jefferson

-

<GRCanning

 

Friday, June 02, 2000 2:12 AM

Re: message for Flaws/Reading basic Medical

Chinese

 

 

> Hi Z'ev,

>

> Yes, all the dictionaries and glossaries I have seen (including Wiseman &

> Feng) all seem very " afflicted " ( and I also have several). Something

better

> would be nice.

>

> Perhaps what is needed is to create our own dictionaries and glossaries,

> appropriate to modern vernacular American-English, as well as to a

> professional, alternative medical practice in our modern, western health

care

> environment.

>

> This could certainly incorporate Wiseman & Fengs denotative (literal)

> translation of the chinese characters, as well as more flexible,

> professionally appropriate and actually readable and

> understandable(connotative) translation sets.

>

> Kind of a " Primmer " concept like they used to have in the 1800's for

> teaching English in one room school houses to a broad group of children,

of

> varying ages, apptitudes, and levels of English ability and experience.

>

> This concept seemed to work well for them, for if you have ever read any

of

> the " letters back home " from civil wars soldiers (from both sides of the

> conflict) they not only seem quite literate, and well written in general,

but

> they actually seem to have been much better educated in the English

language

> than most modern students and adults.

>

> Perhaps they were on to something conceptually that we can adapt to our

> " problem " . I am not sure what the count of basic TCM terms and phrases

would

> be to enable a basic level of competence in reading medical Chinese ( one

> thousand characters and phrases?, two thousand?, three? I am not sure what

> the actual number would be, but it would certainly be possible to find

out),

> again, perhaps Bob Flaws has gone far ahead on all of this already, and

> actually has this data figured out.

>

> I know I would love to have such a " primmer " , with Han ZI (characters),

Pin

> Yin, English, and stroke order look up tables, both literal and

connotative

> explanations and translations, and preferably in a fairly large and bold

type

> face (not getting any younger you know), and even better if it were also

> available with " Flash Cards " with the Chinese characters on one side, and

the

> basic data set for translation on the other.

>

> Perhaps Bob has already done this, although I have not yet ordered his

> material on " Teaching Yourself to Read Medical Chinese " yet, so I am not

sure

> exactly what he has compiled, although it seems like he may have made a

> really good start on all this already.

>

>

> All the best Z'ev,

>

> Bruce

>

> --------------------------------(original message

> follows)-----

>

>

>

>

> 05/27/2000 8:43:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> zrosenberg ()

> Reply-to: <A

HREF= " " >

> @</A>

>

>

> Dear Bruce,

> While I agree with you that Western practitioners do need to learn

> medical Chinese, the issue remains in one's brain and speech on how to

> translate those concepts into English. While I think Dan Bensky, Steven

> Clavey, Ted Kaptchuk and Nathan Sivin among others have done an excellant

> job, it is impossible to convey Chinese medical concepts without

glossaries

> and dictionaries of terminology to do so. I don't see any other

> alternative to this dilemma. I have several mainland Chinese

translations,

> and most of them are quite poor. . . .and fail to convey the essential

> content of the original text.

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >Personally, I don't like the current " standardized terminology " and

think

> >that ultimately, the " answer " to many of the problems we discuss here on

CHA

> >is in teaching TCM practioners here in the US to read " Basic Medical

> Chinese "

> >(as opposed to conversational Chinese). That, and a more in depth,

> thorough,

> >and professional level educational program in both Eastern and Western

> >Medicine than has been available up to now.

> >

> >It is also of note that ALL of the good TCM doctors I met back in the

PRC

> >read Medical English.even though very few of them spoke English

> >conversationally.

> >

> >When asked why, they answered that they felt it was necessary for them,

in

> >order to be the very best Doctors they could be, to be able to access

the

> >scientific and medical information that was not available in their

native

> >Chinese language, and that was only available in English.

> >

> >Seems like an important object lession.

> >

> >All the best,

> >

> >Bruce

> >

>

>

>

> ------

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959485328/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

>

>

> ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------

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[172.18.149.33])

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23:43:44 -0400

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> 03:42:09 -0000

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2000

> 03:42:07 -0000

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mta1

> with SMTP; 28 May 2000 03:42:07 -0000

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> [216.240.161.115]) by volt.electriciti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id

> UAA03343 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 20:40:12

> -0700 (PDT)

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> In-<c8.570577a.2660ea54

>

> X-eGroups- " " <zrosenberg

> " " <zrosenberg

> MIME-Version: 1.0

> Mailing-List: list ; contact

> -owner

> Delivered-mailing list

> Precedence: bulk

> List-Un: <->

> Sat, 27 May 2000 20:46:11 -0700

>

> Re: message for Flaws

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

> >>

>

> ------

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> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

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