Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 <<Someone pointed out that TCM practitioners in China can prescribe antibiotics. Do they do so based on the system of thought that proposes that infections are a result of bacterial attack and therefore an agent is required to battle this bug or do they do so thinking in terms of the cold nature of the agent, from a TCM point of view? >> To change to topic, are antibiotics necessarily cold? I had tended to assume they were, but one of my teachers claims that most of her patients on long term antibiotics burn out their yin, and thus tends to think of antibiotics as hot or warming. She hadn't addressed specific antibiotics however. Herbally plants with antibiotic properties seem to run the gamut from warm (garlic) to cold (coptis, jin hua and goldenseal.) If anyone has thoughts on the energetics of specific antibiotics or classes of antibiotics, I'd be interested in hearing them. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. 'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are not cherished'.- Sun Si Miao ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 ><<Someone pointed out that TCM practitioners in China can prescribe >antibiotics. Do they do so based on the system of thought that proposes >that infections are a result of bacterial attack and therefore an agent >is >required to battle this bug or do they do so thinking in terms of the >cold >nature of the agent, from a TCM point of view? >> > >To change to topic, are antibiotics necessarily cold? I had tended to >assume they were, but one of my teachers claims that most of her patients >on long term antibiotics burn out their yin, and thus tends to think of >antibiotics as hot or warming. She hadn't addressed specific antibiotics >however. > >Herbally plants with antibiotic properties seem to run the gamut from >warm (garlic) to cold (coptis, jin hua and goldenseal.) If anyone has >thoughts on the energetics of specific antibiotics or classes of >antibiotics, I'd be interested in hearing them. > >Karen Vaughan >CreationsGarden Karen, In the Chinese pharmacoepia, we learn that 'cold bitter substances damage yin'. Why, because they are drying as well as cooling. Therefore, we use them carefully, if at all, in yin xu patients, and rarely for yin xu vacuity heat. I think there are a number of factors in this situation: 1) the constitution of the patient. A sp qi xu with damp or sp yang xu patient with internal cold will most likely develop phlegm damp or aggravated internal cold from use of antibiotics. A stomach (which usually includes kidney) yin xu patient will generate heat aggravation from antibotics. 2) dosage. Large dosages of strong medicinal ingredients tends to change their effects. As it says in the Nei Jing, small amounts of a flavor will nourish a viscera, large amounts damage it. 3) combinations. When drugs are combined together, or taken with herbs and/or supplements, it compounds and complicates their effects. Interactions must be taken into account. While most antibiotics I have observed taken by my patients seem to be bitter and cold in nature, some of the newer super-antibiotics do seem to generate heat. At this point, it is hard for me to put my finger on this. I'd like to hear what other list members have to say about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 Z'ev, > While most antibiotics I have observed taken by my patients seem to be > bitter and cold in nature, some of the newer super-antibiotics do seem to > generate heat. At this point, it is hard for me to put my finger on this. > I'd like to hear what other list members have to say about this. I'll be in China later this month and I'll see if I can track anything down on this topic from people at the hospital who are well versed in the use of antibiotic and Chinese herbal therpaies side by side. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Z'ev said While most antibiotics I have observed taken by my patients seem to be bitter and cold in nature, some of the newer super-antibiotics do seem to generate heat. At this point, it is hard for me to put my finger on this. I'd like to hear what other list members have to say about this. I tell my patients not to take antibiotics. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Heiko wrote: >I tell my patients not to take antibiotics. I tell my clients that I reserve antibiotics for life-threatening diseases or potentially devistating conditions like Lyme disease, a new spirochete-borne disease passed through deer ticks which can be arrested by immediate antibiotic use but which, like syphillis, can be almost impossible to eradicate if it gets entrenched. (In the latter case I have an individualized herbal protocol to accompany antibiotics.) I also stress that the 500 or so species of bacteria in the human gut are our symbionts and that we need to cultivate their ecology through right diet and balanced living. (I've found that this appeal to their responsibility for other beings can help clients make lifestyle changes which they might put off in a " selfish " context.) Having once had a gangrenous internal organ I am grateful for occasionally used antibiotics, even if rebalancing is required afterwards. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. 'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are not cherished'.- Sun Si Miao ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 I certainly am not in favor of antibiotics.. . ..they are vastly overused, and a major cause of iatrogenesis, and disruption of the environment. However, many patients, especially new ones, have taken them before beginning Chinese medicine, as in the case of teenagers with skin diseases, or in dental work. While I discourage their use, there are legal considerations in the United States to interfere with recommendations of other health professionals. I simply give a point of view, and then let the patient decide for themselves. In my own lifestyle, and with my own family, we avoid them completely. >Z'ev said > >While most antibiotics I have observed taken by my patients seem to be >bitter and cold in nature, some of the newer super-antibiotics do seem to >generate heat. At this point, it is hard for me to put my finger on this. >I'd like to hear what other list members have to say about this. > >I tell my patients not to take antibiotics. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 I agree 100% with Karen. There are extreme situations where antibiotics are warranted. . ..not for viral flus, acne, or chronic low-grade infections. >Heiko wrote: >>I tell my patients not to take antibiotics. > >I tell my clients that I reserve antibiotics for life-threatening >diseases or potentially devistating conditions like Lyme disease, a new >spirochete-borne disease passed through deer ticks which can be arrested >by immediate antibiotic use but which, like syphillis, can be almost >impossible to eradicate if it gets entrenched. (In the latter case I have >an individualized herbal protocol to accompany antibiotics.) I also >stress that the 500 or so species of bacteria in the human gut are our >symbionts and that we need to cultivate their ecology through right diet >and balanced living. (I've found that this appeal to their >responsibility for other beings can help clients make lifestyle changes >which they might put off in a " selfish " context.) Having once had a >gangrenous internal organ I am grateful for occasionally used >antibiotics, even if rebalancing is required afterwards. > >Karen Vaughan >CreationsGarden >*************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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