Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 >There seems to be something downright curious about you blasting >Chinese medical education in China with broad generalities about >what the Universities do. There is nothing curious about it. " Zhong-Xi Yi Jiehe " (Combination of Western and Chinese Medicine) is the official program in the TCM Universities in China. Ask any student who studied there. And ask any reputable Chinese TCM doctor if there are satisfied with the official direction TCM is taking in China. >There are at last count three TCM universities >in China, one in Beijing, one in Shanghai, and one in Chengdu. >There are another thirty or so colleges and scores of other level institutes >and training organizations. Are you familiar with the work being done >at all of these? Are they all in a sorry state? I have spoke to students in all of the Universities you mentioned, including Nanjing and the college in Kunming. All say the same thing. I would have probably been more appropriate to say: TCM EDUCATION in China is in a sorry state (and all my Chinese professors here will second me on that), and ultimately that will (and already has) led to TCM being in a sorry state. This is a concern of many doctors here in China. >Or are you only describing those acupuncture courses & clinics in Beijing >Hospitals for which you provide further information? >I really don't get it. Is this reverse psychology advertising? Would you prefer me to say that I think TCM education in China is wonderful, come and join the courses? What do you want me to do? Why are you getting so angry? I said in my post that there are brilliant practitioners to be found here, obviously. This is why I stayed here. If you search, you can find great learning opportunities here. This is why I provide information on these courses. But what you find here depends to 90% on your own initiative. This is why a lot of students here look for private tutors. If it wasn't for the private tutors, I think you are better off studying TCM in the United States, really. This is what I and a lot of other students honestly think. Tell me again why you were getting angry? Dagmar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Let me preface my msg. with an apology to the group in regard to misspellings and numerous 'strangely' words in past msg.'s and possible future ones. I am currently experimenting with a voice dictation prg. and many times it mixes up words. (i.e weekend should be weaken) I will try to do a better job of proofreading... Dagmar Riley [dagmar-riley] Monday, June 05, 2000 2:26 AM TCM in China/ was Cold antibiotics There is nothing curious about it. " Zhong-Xi Yi Jiehe " (Combination of Western and Chinese Medicine) is the official program in the TCM Universities in China. Ask any student who studied there. And ask any reputable Chinese TCM doctor if there are satisfied with the official direction TCM is taking in China. Dagmar, I have not been to China, but I will say your statements do not hold true to my experience in talking with students and teachers from there. AS mentioned before I know a professor from Nanjing and he does not agree with any of your statements. And yes he is very reputable. TCM education, he says, is not in a SORRY STATE, and also as mentioned before, how can one make such bold statements when you are studying here (or studied) in the states. How many classics did you have to memorize to graduate? How many did you actually read in school? Finally my encounters with graduates from schools in CHINA have always been positive, meaning they all have been VERY knowledgeable, and yes sometimes also in the western sciences. I am though curious to hear more from people that have actually been to these universities, because I am planning to travel and study there. - >There are at last count three TCM universities >in China, one in Beijing, one in Shanghai, and one in Chengdu. >There are another thirty or so colleges and scores of other level institutes >and training organizations. Are you familiar with the work being done >at all of these? Are they all in a sorry state? I have spoke to students in all of the Universities you mentioned, including Nanjing and the college in Kunming. All say the same thing. I would have probably been more appropriate to say: TCM EDUCATION in China is in a sorry state (and all my Chinese professors here will second me on that), and ultimately that will (and already has) led to TCM being in a sorry state. This is a concern of many doctors here in China. >Or are you only describing those acupuncture courses & clinics in Beijing >Hospitals for which you provide further information? >I really don't get it. Is this reverse psychology advertising? Would you prefer me to say that I think TCM education in China is wonderful, come and join the courses? What do you want me to do? Why are you getting so angry? I said in my post that there are brilliant practitioners to be found here, obviously. This is why I stayed here. If you search, you can find great learning opportunities here. This is why I provide information on these courses. But what you find here depends to 90% on your own initiative. This is why a lot of students here look for private tutors. If it wasn't for the private tutors, I think you are better off studying TCM in the United States, really. This is what I and a lot of other students honestly think. Tell me again why you were getting angry? Dagmar ------ Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. Remember the good 'ol days http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/960197166/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Dagmar " Zhong-Xi Yi Jiehe " (Combination of Western and ) is very much prevalent in the United States. Almost every Patent Herbal Formula (made in the United States) highlight and emphasis the western medical condition. The client asks for remedies by western terms, they are cross referenced and listed via western terms. They are dispersed - by health care professionals and store clerks by western terms. In my opinion there is little concern for the TCM protocols. This trend erodes TCM overall. I would guess the Chinese TCM universities are just responding to the U.S. Phyto-Pharmaceticals. Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Jason, As you know, I haven't been to China. And beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It sounds like Dagmar had a bad experience in China. And, yes, many practitioners, including myself are very concerned about the direction TCM seems to be taking in China. I have d to several journals from the Chinese schools, and most of the articles are based on western diagnostics with some herbal treatment. Also, you must read Manfred Porkert's book, " Debased " . The lead article is available on his website, www.phainon.com. He is an honorary instructor at a TCM college, and he confirms much of what Dagmar states. Read it and get back to me. > >There is nothing curious about it. " Zhong-Xi Yi Jiehe " (Combination of >Western and Chinese >Medicine) is the official program in the TCM Universities in China. Ask any >student who studied there. And ask any reputable Chinese TCM doctor if there >are satisfied with the official direction TCM is taking in China. > >Dagmar, >I have not been to China, but I will say your statements do not hold true to >my experience in talking with students and teachers from there. AS >mentioned before I know a professor from Nanjing and he does not agree with >any of your statements. And yes he is very reputable. TCM education, he >says, is not in a SORRY STATE, and also as mentioned before, how can one >make such bold statements when you are studying here (or studied) in the >states. How many classics did you have to memorize to graduate? How many >did you actually read in school? Finally my encounters with graduates from >schools in CHINA have always been positive, meaning they all have been VERY >knowledgeable, and yes sometimes also in the western sciences. I am though >curious to hear more from people that have actually been to these >universities, because I am planning to travel and study there. > >- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Dagmar, I'm not angry. I wasn't angry when I posted my questions to you and I'm not angry now. I was frustrated by and a little, well, curious to learn more about your broad denunciation of TCM education in China. As I suggested in my question, and as I now continue to believe based upon your reply, you probably do not have adequate data to report meaningfully about the state TCM education throughout China, your anecdotal interviews with people from various TCM education facilities notwithstanding. I did indeed intend to put you on the defensive. I wanted to see how such statements could be defended, and frankly you haven't defended them at all. I do get a little better understanding of the kinds of problems you are looking at from what you expanded on the original idea that TCM is in a sorry state in China. I haven't been there in nearly two years now, and I am looking forward to bringing myself up to date on what has transpired in the wake of the adopition in late 97 by the central authority of a 10-year initiative to export TCM internationally. I think that in many complicated ways the Chinese are struggling with how to disseminate literature, instruction, and herbal medicines into other areas. Politics gets involved. Cultural issues loom up. Economics, of course, plays its ever present role. As I've said here before, it is my personal impression that the scene in Chengdu where I spent most of my time in China tends to be somewhat more traditional than in the larger centers such as Beijing and Shanghai. I can't really say this is true, as I've spent very little time in those and other places. But I've always heard this about Chengdu, even before I went. In fact, that's why I chose Chengdu over those other places. But I can tell you that from my six years in Chengdu, I wouldn't say that the state of TCM practice or education is sorry there at all. It is, of course, sorry that there are so few resources to serve so many people. But I am always impressed by the efficacy of the clinicians at the hospital that is attached to the University of TCM in Chengdu. I learned a great deal from these individuals and they truly did inspire me to study deeply and grasp for the roots of things. So I'm not at all angry, and as always I feel compelled to reiterate what a high value I place on the existence of such a forum where issues like this can get raised and examined a little more closely than when we think about them in the privacy of our own minds. I welcome it when people challenge my statements. I appreciate an opportunity to defend some supposition or conclusion to which I have come. I submit that through such opposition, and through such opposition alone, are we capable of achieving the deepest understanding of ourselves and of each other. " Opposition, " wrote Blake, " is true friendship. " In fact, I am so not angry, that I would like to arrange to get together with you in Beijing, if that is where you are. I'll be there on the 24th for a couple of days. If you have time and the inclination to meet and talk at greater depth, please get in touch with me directly. I'll be traveling with an MD who is the Chief of Neuorolgy at a hospital in Southern California who is interested in setting up CME seminars for medical personnel in topics related to Chinese medicine. We may have some interesting things to talk about. The angry ones, I think it's safe to say, are those who throw up their hands and walk away. Ken " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without destroying both. " Thomas Jefferson - Dagmar Riley <dagmar-riley Monday, June 05, 2000 2:25 AM TCM in China/ was Cold antibiotics > >There seems to be something downright curious about you blasting > >Chinese medical education in China with broad generalities about > >what the Universities do. > > There is nothing curious about it. " Zhong-Xi Yi Jiehe " (Combination of > Western and Chinese > Medicine) is the official program in the TCM Universities in China. Ask any > student who studied there. And ask any reputable Chinese TCM doctor if there > are satisfied with the official direction TCM is taking in China. > > >There are at last count three TCM universities > >in China, one in Beijing, one in Shanghai, and one in Chengdu. > >There are another thirty or so colleges and scores of other level > institutes > >and training organizations. Are you familiar with the work being done > >at all of these? Are they all in a sorry state? > > I have spoke to students in all of the Universities you mentioned, including > Nanjing and the college in Kunming. All say the same thing. I would have > probably been more appropriate to say: TCM EDUCATION in China is in a sorry > state (and all my Chinese professors here will second me on that), and > ultimately that will (and already has) led to TCM being in a sorry state. > This is a concern of many doctors here in China. > > >Or are you only describing those acupuncture courses & clinics in Beijing > >Hospitals for which you provide further information? > >I really don't get it. Is this reverse psychology advertising? > > Would you prefer me to say that I think TCM education in China is wonderful, > come and join the courses? What do you want me to do? Why are you getting so > angry? > I said in my post that there are brilliant practitioners to be found here, > obviously. This is why I stayed here. If you search, you can find great > learning opportunities here. This is why I provide information on these > courses. But what you find here depends to 90% on your own initiative. This > is why a lot of students here look for private tutors. If it wasn't for the > private tutors, I think you are better off studying TCM in the United > States, really. This is what I and a lot of other students honestly think. > Tell me again why you were getting angry? > > Dagmar > > > > ------ > Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. > Remember the good 'ol days > http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/960197166/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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