Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 how do you have time to become a rep for an herb company and make 40 visits in one week? (if I may ask). Do you have a full time practice? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within our profession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company. In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selected established well known local px only to target. This is what I discovered: Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regular basis. Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail and otherwise the office was empty 15 of the 40 had closed their practices for good None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 -15/hour). I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and massachusetts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 In a message dated 6/6/00 5:39:33 PM, herb-t writes: << None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 -15/hour). I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and massachusetts). >> I'd be happy to have them in PA. We have 200 in the whole state. The bummer is physician supervision. I lose 1/3 of my prospective patients to physicians who have bogus acu certs and dont need to have a supervisor. Luckily, I still work all day and both my wife and I do VERY well. If someone might be interested in West Memphis Arkansas, they could kick butt there too. Arkansas has 7 acus, with one or two who knows what they are doing. DAVe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 OK, so where should we go? Anyone out there know of some really underserved markets? Please share! Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 In a message dated 6/6/00 9:54:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, acuman1 writes: << I'd be happy to have them in PA. We have 200 in the whole state. The bummer is physician supervision. I lose 1/3 of my prospective patients to physicians who have bogus acu certs and dont need to have a supervisor. Luckily, I still work all day and both my wife and I do VERY well. If someone might be interested in West Memphis Arkansas, they could kick butt there too. Arkansas has 7 acus, with one or two who knows what they are doing. DAVe >> Dave, can you please explain what this means? In California, we don't have physician supervision. What exactly is the procedure, and how do you lose patients? And, when you are busy all day, who are your patients? Did they come from physician referral? or? Please 'splain. West Memphis, AR? What's that like? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 That is really true about spreading out. I know two practitioners, 1996 & 97 graduates, who have a very busy practice in Des Moines, IA -- between them 80 patients a week. There are only about 10 practitioners in the entire state of Iowa. I've also seen advertised, oddly enough, quite a few jobs for acupuncturists in hospitals in the midwest... Catherine --- Original Message ----- cha Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:26 PM survival anecdote I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within ourprofession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company.In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selectedestablished well known local px only to target. This is what Idiscovered:Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regularbasis.Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail andotherwise the office was empty15 of the 40 had closed their practices for goodNone of these folks is old enough to retire or are independentlywealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes aliving from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paidteacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10-15/hour).I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over thewhole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas(2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida andmassachusetts).Todd Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 Hello, Catherine, Can you tell me where these employment opportunities are listed? I'm curious because when I explored various job sites on the web, i never, repeat never, found a single listing for acupuncturists. Thanks, luke , C Hemenway <chemenway@b...> wrote: > That is really true about spreading out. I know two practitioners, 1996 & 97 graduates, who have a very busy practice in Des Moines, IA - - between them 80 patients a week. There are only about 10 practitioners in the entire state of Iowa. I've also seen advertised, oddly enough, quite a few jobs for acupuncturists in hospitals in the midwest... > > Catherine > > > > > --- Original Message ----- > Todd > cha > Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:26 PM > survival anecdote > > > I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within our > profession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company. > In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selected > established well known local px only to target. This is what I > discovered: > > Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regular > basis. > > Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail and > otherwise the office was empty > > 15 of the 40 had closed their practices for good > > None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently > wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a > living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid > teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 > -15/hour). > > I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the > whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas > (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and > massachusetts). > > Todd > > > -- ---------- > > > > -- ---------- > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 The Iowa acup. law no longer requires physican referral. And I knew someone who did well in Kansas City, MO. Catherine - acuman1 Tuesday, June 06, 2000 8:48 PM Re: survival anecdote In a message dated 6/6/00 5:39:33 PM, herb-t writes:<< None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independentlywealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes aliving from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paidteacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10-15/hour).I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over thewhole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas(2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida andmassachusetts). >>I'd be happy to have them in PA. We have 200 in the whole state. The bummer is physician supervision. I lose 1/3 of my prospective patients to physicians who have bogus acu certs and dont need to have a supervisor. Luckily, I still work all day and both my wife and I do VERY well. If someone might be interested in West Memphis Arkansas, they could kick butt there too. Arkansas has 7 acus, with one or two who knows what they are doing.DAVe Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 Hello, Julie, In Illinois, we can only treat patients via prescription from an MD, DO or DC. We OMD's are not licensed to practise medicine..., nor for that matter, can i legally state that I am an OMD! And insurance reimbursement requires an ICD-9 code, which can only be given by practitioners licensed to practise medicine. I suppose this is better than facing felony charges. Talk about politics! luke , juliej8@a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/6/00 9:54:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, acuman1@a... > writes: > > << > I'd be happy to have them in PA. We have 200 in the whole state. The bummer > is physician supervision. I lose 1/3 of my prospective patients to > physicians > who have bogus acu certs and dont need to have a supervisor. Luckily, I > still > work all day and both my wife and I do VERY well. > If someone might be interested in West Memphis Arkansas, they could kick > butt > there too. Arkansas has 7 acus, with one or two who knows what they are > doing. > DAVe > >> > Dave, can you please explain what this means? In California, we don't have > physician supervision. What exactly is the procedure, and how do you lose > patients? And, when you are busy all day, who are your patients? Did they > come from physician referral? or? Please 'splain. > > West Memphis, AR? What's that like? > > Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Oklahoma and there is very little regulation and not many practitioners that know what they are doing - <juliej8 Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:28 PM Re: survival anecdote > OK, so where should we go? Anyone out there know of some really underserved > markets? Please share! > > Julie > > ------ > Porsche Boxter. You and a friend. Nine dream days from > Napa Valley to Beverly Hills. Provided by CarsDirect.com. > Click to enter. > http://click./1/4882/9/_/542111/_/960353499/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 et al., This problem our field has maintaining active professionals has long concerned me. So much so that while I was still in school I used my final year to study NCCA certified acupuncturists in Illinois and Wisconsin to see what traits the successful ones may have had in common, in terms of their practice. The results were very interesting, and I would go into them in this forum if anyone is interested. My suspician, though, is that there are many factors which contribute to the poor performance of acupuncturists on a business front. A big part of it is that most acupuncturists I know won't actively try to recruit people. In Illinois, at least, most people don't know what is, let alone what it is good for. I find that this career is one of constant education for the general populace. I tell students all the time to use every opportunity to recruit. It may sound crazy, but when I was just beginning I would approach people in parties who were sneezing and sinusy sounding and ask about their allergies/cold. I would segue into my career and how TCM might be useful to them. They were always surprised that this medicine could be useful. About 1/5 would call me in the next week. On the rare occassion that I do treat a pain related problem, I still have them fill out an extensive intake form. From this I can see if they have any other health problems. If they do, I mention how I may be useful to them in the future. Many of them come back after the back problem is resolved for their fibroids or whatever. Many of the graduates here, before returning to their 'day job', have an attitude of, " well the universe will provide " grooviness. The universe is busy keeping gravity working and such, each of us needs to work hard to recruit patients --- at least in the beginning. Though, as and Subhuti Dharmananda of the Institute of Traditional Medicine have stated we do need to move out of the urban areas where we are the most concentrated, there are plenty of opportunities for an acupuncturist to do quite well in a big city --- even with lots of competition. Coming off of my soapbox, Mark Reese Chicago, IL > [Original Message] <herb-t > cha > 6/6/00 4:30:31 PM > survival anecdote > > I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within our > profession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company. > In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selected > established well known local px only to target. This is what I > discovered: > > Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regular > basis. > > Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail and > otherwise the office was empty > > 15 of the 40 had closed their practices for good > > None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently > wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a > living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid > teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 > -15/hour). > > I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the > whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas > (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and > massachusetts). > > > > ------ > Keep in touch with eGroups, > Keep your long distance bills lower with beMANY! > http://click./1/4120/9/_/542111/_/960326888/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 I think we sometimes forget out here in the west how much broader our scope and freedom is than in most other licensed states. However, we a major ICD-9 fiasco brewing here in Oregon. Our local organization lobbied hard to get our state medicaid to cover acupuncture for a number of services, but reimbursement is too low for anyone except if you have no staff or practice from your home. However, what was overlooked was the dx code requirements. In order to legally get medicaid reimbursement requires an ICD code. And these can't be fudged like some people do in Private practice, calling everything pain. So if an asthma patient needs treatment, they must be treated for asthma. the catch-22. It is absolutely illegal to code an asthma dx in OR, since we cannot make this dx. There are several grey area ways around this legally, but as far as I can tell, the state medicaid offices were not aware of this conflict. When I called to ask how I could fulfill their requirements without breaking my practice act law, they were perplexed. They have aparently decided to process what may be illegal claims because they are overworked and no one is complaining, yet. I smell insurance fraud scandal myself when this hits the light of day. , " Luke Klincewicz " < l.klincewicz@w...> wrote: > Hello, Julie, > > In Illinois, we can only treat patients via prescription from an MD, > DO or DC. We OMD's are not licensed to practise medicine..., nor for > that matter, can i legally state that I am an OMD! > > And insurance reimbursement requires an ICD-9 code, which can only be > given by practitioners licensed to practise medicine. > > I suppose this is better than facing felony charges. > > Talk about politics! > > luke > > , juliej8@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/6/00 9:54:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > acuman1@a... > > writes: > > > > << > > I'd be happy to have them in PA. We have 200 in the whole state. > The bummer > > is physician supervision. I lose 1/3 of my prospective patients to > > physicians > > who have bogus acu certs and dont need to have a supervisor. > Luckily, I > > still > > work all day and both my wife and I do VERY well. > > If someone might be interested in West Memphis Arkansas, they > could kick > > butt > > there too. Arkansas has 7 acus, with one or two who knows what > they are > > doing. > > DAVe > > >> > > Dave, can you please explain what this means? In California, we > don't have > > physician supervision. What exactly is the procedure, and how do > you lose > > patients? And, when you are busy all day, who are your patients? > Did they > > come from physician referral? or? Please 'splain. > > > > West Memphis, AR? What's that like? > > > > Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 (in response to spreading out) I wonder what the comparison would be to chiropractors. I've only met a very few DC who do not have a staff and all seem to be in a very professional setting - and all just down the street from each other. A few years ago (1997)I did some work for an insurance network provider. I visited acupuncturists who had requested their services. All together I saw about 120 License acupuncturists all in the South Bay Area. The same stats as you. A few offices were closed even though my visit was within the hours were posted on the door. Only a handful had any staff. The majority were by appointment only. Many did not have restrooms located within their office but had to go outside down the hall. About half were in their homes. Few were listed in the Yellow Pages. (BTW. I just received a large business line of credit and the underwriter wanted to know " how could you do business without being in the yellow Pages? " Personally I think its an image, even one we create ourselves. Speaking for others like myself, that saw the " doctors office " as cold and something to be avoided. and desired to bring something else forward. Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California [herb-t] Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:27 PM cha survival anecdote I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within our profession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company. In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selected established well known local px only to target. This is what I discovered: Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regular basis. Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail and otherwise the office was empty 15 of the 40 had closed their practices for good None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 -15/hour). I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and massachusetts). ------ Keep in touch with eGroups, Keep your long distance bills lower with beMANY! http://click./1/4120/9/_/542111/_/960326888/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 I was recently working in a large clinic owned by a chiropractor. He sat me down several times and talked to me about marketing. Gave me the run down of what they learned and what he does. Chiropractors get trained very well in business skills. But it's the real in-your-face kind of thing which doesn't appeal to me or to many acupuncturists. But they all come out of school with this indoctrination, basically. And many if not most of their continuing ed courses are about practice building with a little bit of skills thrown in. It's completely different than the business management class I took, which was basically pretty useless. Other thing about the "straight" chiropractors I worked with, is that they see patients for 5-10 minutes, once they've had their initial examination. So they can afford to work out all kinds of plans where people sign up for several months or a year and pay $25 a session. And they are very good at convincing people that they have to do this and so should everyone one of their family members and friends. Personally I hate the kind of hard-sell they do, but it works for them. Catherine - HappyHerbalist.com Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:51 AM RE: survival anecdote (in response to spreading out) I wonder what the comparison would beto chiropractors. I've only met a very few DC who do not have a staff andall seem to be in a very professional setting - and all just down the streetfrom each other.A few years ago (1997)I did some work for an insurance network provider. Ivisited acupuncturists who had requested their services. All together I sawabout 120 License acupuncturists all in the South Bay Area. The same statsas you. A few offices were closed even though my visit was within the hourswere posted on the door. Only a handful had any staff. The majority were byappointment only. Many did not have restrooms located within their officebut had to go outside down the hall. About half were in their homes. Fewwere listed in the Yellow Pages. (BTW. I just received a large business lineof credit and the underwriter wanted to know "how could you do businesswithout being in the yellow Pages?"Personally I think its an image, even one we create ourselves. Speaking forothers like myself, that saw the "doctors office" as cold and something tobe avoided. and desired to bring something else forward.Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, CaliforniaTodd [herb-t]Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:27 PMcha survival anecdoteI wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within ourprofession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company.In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selectedestablished well known local px only to target. This is what Idiscovered:Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regularbasis.Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail andotherwise the office was empty15 of the 40 had closed their practices for goodNone of these folks is old enough to retire or are independentlywealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes aliving from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paidteacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10-15/hour).I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over thewhole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas(2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida andmassachusetts).Todd------Keep in touch with eGroups,Keep your long distance bills lower with beMANY!http://click./1/4120/9/_/542111/_/960326888/------Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hello again, Catherine, I agree with your sentiment. I would further point out that here in the state of Illinois, chiropractic treatment is often covered by health insurance; acupuncture is not (even when performed by an MD, DO, or DC). luke , C Hemenway <chemenway@b...> wrote: > I was recently working in a large clinic owned by a chiropractor. He sat me down several times and talked to me about marketing. Gave me the run down of what they learned and what he does. Chiropractors get trained very well in business skills. But it's the real in-your- face kind of thing which doesn't appeal to me or to many acupuncturists. But they all come out of school with this indoctrination, basically. And many if not most of their continuing ed courses are about practice building with a little bit of skills thrown in. It's completely different than the business management class I took, which was basically pretty useless. > > Other thing about the " straight " chiropractors I worked with, is that they see patients for 5-10 minutes, once they've had their initial examination. So they can afford to work out all kinds of plans where people sign up for several months or a year and pay $25 a session. And they are very good at convincing people that they have to do this and so should everyone one of their family members and friends. Personally I hate the kind of hard-sell they do, but it works for them. > > Catherine > > > > - > HappyHerbalist.com > > Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:51 AM > RE: survival anecdote > > > (in response to spreading out) I wonder what the comparison would be > to chiropractors. I've only met a very few DC who do not have a staff and > all seem to be in a very professional setting - and all just down the street > from each other. > > A few years ago (1997)I did some work for an insurance network provider. I > visited acupuncturists who had requested their services. All together I saw > about 120 License acupuncturists all in the South Bay Area. The same stats > as you. A few offices were closed even though my visit was within the hours > were posted on the door. Only a handful had any staff. The majority were by > appointment only. Many did not have restrooms located within their office > but had to go outside down the hall. About half were in their homes. Few > were listed in the Yellow Pages. (BTW. I just received a large business line > of credit and the underwriter wanted to know " how could you do business > without being in the yellow Pages? " > Personally I think its an image, even one we create ourselves. Speaking for > others like myself, that saw the " doctors office " as cold and something to > be avoided. and desired to bring something else forward. > > Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California > > > Todd [herb-t@s...] > Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:27 PM > cha > survival anecdote > > > I wanted to add my own anecdote to the question of attrition within our > profession. I recently became a local sales rep for an herb company. > In the past week, I have made forty sales visits to offices. I selected > established well known local px only to target. This is what I > discovered: > > Only five of 40 were actually present in their offices on a regular > basis. > > Only 3 of 40 had an office staff; all others relied on voicemail and > otherwise the office was empty > > 15 of the 40 had closed their practices for good > > None of these folks is old enough to retire or are independently > wealthy, so my suspicion is that none of these folks actually makes a > living from private TCM practice. Many apparently work as low paid > teacher's assistants or equally low paid detox technicians ($10 > -15/hour). > > I think a lot of this attrition would stop if people spread out over the > whole country instead of clustering in a handful of progressive areas > (2/3 of all l.ac. practice on the West coast, NY, florida and > massachusetts). > > Todd > > > ------ > Keep in touch with eGroups, > Keep your long distance bills lower with beMANY! > http://click./1/4120/9/_/542111/_/960326888/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > -- ---------- > > > > -- ---------- > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 In a message dated 6/7/00 1:02:28 AM, juliej8 writes: << Dave, can you please explain what this means? In California, we don't have physician supervision. What exactly is the procedure, and how do you lose patients? And, when you are busy all day, who are your patients? Did they come from physician referral? or? Please 'splain. If a patient want to see me, they have to first get a physical from my supervisor or have my supervisor accept records (liability) from their own physician. They say it is safe for the patient to have acupuncture and provide restraints on treatment if indicated, in writing. They cannot go to thier own doctor, as in NJ, but have to see another doctor (mine) first. I have to have the piece of paper first. MD's and DO's dont need this. They are in the yellow pages too. Many of my patients come from those doctors, but a certain %age think it is acupuncture not working. Also, if, in the future, we will run out of supervisors, as it does incur liability, andif they are in a group practice, hospital or have a brother that is a lawyer, they won't supervise. I now have 2 supervisors I can refer patients to for physicals. Sometimes it takes 2-3 weeks to get in to them. I als have 6 other supervisors who only want to send me thier patients and don't want me to send new ones to them. West Memphis, AR? What's that like? >> Arkansas has one of the best licenses in the US and has few practitioners (7). Tennessee just got a law passed and needs people too. West Memphis is just across the river from MEmphis Tennessee, and the AR license provides much more flexibility. DAvid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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