Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 My hep C patient who I have talked about before has passed away due to complications from ascites. I do not have all the details, but I do know it had something to do with pressure on abdominal content and lungs. He had been taking lasix for a long time to try and control the ascites. He never experienced renal failure, but even his MD was concerned about the lasix. He was very spleen and kidney yang xu in his last months. I was sure the lasix was hurting him and based on his doctor's concern, he had begun to experiment with reducing his dosage to protect his kidneys. Yet, since the lasix had been effective for the ascites, was this concern unwarranted or even misguided? Since he died of ascites complications while reducing lasix, should he have just stayed on lasix? I mean his physiological kidneys were fine, but his ascites was clearly bad. I suspect that lasix drains the essence and overly descends the qi, so that it is bad for the physiological kidneys ( as is any long term herbal diuretic, too) and also the ascending spleen qi. I deduce the latter from Li dong yuan's frequent admonitions about overuse of herbal diuretics on the spleen. But this pt. was experiencing obvious fluid retention and inhibited urination, which indicate diuretics. Any thoughts? P.S. I presented this full case already a long time ago, I think (though not according to the new format, sorry!!). Obviously, I am no longer looking for help, just post mortem analysis of certain variables. You can search the archives under hepatitis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 I am very sorry for the loss of your patient. Lasix (A.K.A. furosemide) is a common loop-type diuretic used to treat hypertension, various forms of edema and hypercalcemia. Inherant in its properties is its yin and essence-depleting nature: hypocalcemia, hypokalemia, hypomagnesemia, depletion of micronutrients and depletion of B-vitamins can result with prolonged use. It's hard for me to comment at this point as to whether it overly descends the qi (hence its use as an antihypertensive agent). I'm sure there are possible actions that we could surmise, but I'm not up to that challenge at this time. It is also difficult to determine whether the course of action your patient took caused his eventual death. From what you present, the reduction in medication eventually causing his demise sounds feasible. I find it a very good and thoughtful thing for you to introspect upon your previous cases (whether they are successful or not). That --and most importantly-- is what you should be commended for. Try not to beat your head in with " should-haves " (not that that is what you are doing, but just in case that is what you're doing). Chinese herbs are very powerful in their own right. Many formulae are just as strong and or stronger than many conventional diuretic drugs while addressing an underlying pathology at the same time --something contemporary Western medicine does little consider. I'm a little reluctant to give my diagnostic interpretation of this case without the specifics. However, my suspicion is that the problem arose from yang deficiency (not yin). Formulas like shi pi yin and zhen wu tang -to give a couple of examples- may be good places to start modifying a formula for such a patient with either SP or KD yang insufficiency respectively. Remember that without yin, yang cannot be generated. That is why typical yang tonics, such as you gui wan, contain a yin tonic base structure. Anyway, for whatever it's worth, perhaps looking at it from this angle (if you haven't looked at it already) may be helpful to you. ??? Best Regards, Thaddeus Jacobs, N. D. - <herb-t cha Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:19 AM hep c and lasix > My hep C patient who I have talked about before has passed away due to > complications from ascites. I do not have all the details, but I do > know it had something to do with pressure on abdominal content and > lungs. He had been taking lasix for a long time to try and control the > ascites. He never experienced renal failure, but even his MD was > concerned about the lasix. He was very spleen and kidney yang xu in his > last months. I was sure the lasix was hurting him and based on his > doctor's concern, he had begun to experiment with reducing his dosage to > protect his kidneys. Yet, since the lasix had been effective for the > ascites, was this concern unwarranted or even misguided? Since he died > of ascites complications while reducing lasix, should he have just > stayed on lasix? I mean his physiological kidneys were fine, but his > ascites was clearly bad. > > I suspect that lasix drains the essence and overly descends the qi, so > that it is bad for the physiological kidneys ( as is any long term > herbal diuretic, too) and also the ascending spleen qi. I deduce the > latter from Li dong yuan's frequent admonitions about overuse of herbal > diuretics on the spleen. But this pt. was experiencing obvious fluid > retention and inhibited urination, which indicate diuretics. Any > thoughts? > > P.S. I presented this full case already a long time ago, I think (though > not according to the new format, sorry!!). Obviously, I am no longer > looking for help, just post mortem analysis of certain variables. You > can search the archives under hepatitis. > > > ------ > Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive chemistry > experiments. > http://click./1/4051/9/_/542111/_/960402008/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 I just want to state for the record, since email has legal standing, that this patient was advised to reduce his diuretics under the advice of his prescribing medical doctor, not my recommendation. This case may be an example of liability one might face if they went behind a doctor's back and reduced a patient's pharmaceuticals on the sly. , " Thaddeus Jacobs " < drtjacobs@d...> wrote: > It is also difficult to determine whether the course of action your patient > took caused his eventual death. From what you present, the reduction in > medication eventually causing his demise sounds feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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