Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 Questions concerning the use and analysis of bu zhong yi qi tang… (I am using the blue poppy translation, maybe part of my problem) 1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen “are divine medicinals for eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77)” [unsure what this means???] 2) “at their onset pathocoditions involving the sp/ st (always) involve heat in the center.” Bu zhong yi qi tang is used for this… ??? [My understanding of bu zhong is that it is for sunken yang (w/ qi xu), aversion to cold, thirst for warm beverages etcc.. yang (qi) xu signs (loose & watery stools), among others… (Bensky). Bensky notes that the thirst for warm beverages distinguishes the condition from xu heat.] 3) Huang qi, ren shen, and zhi gan cao are sweet and sour (p.81) if these medicinals are employed after the heat has turned into cold this may exacerbate the disease. [seemingly contradictory to the above Bensky s/s.] Does anyone have the Chinese for these passages, or can someone make sense of this, I am having trouble…. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 , " " <@o...> wrote: > Questions concerning the use and analysis of bu zhong yi qi tang… (I am using the blue poppy translation, maybe part of my problem) I don't see why the BP translation would cause you a problem (especially since you have no option unless you read chinese). While the passages you have quoted are certainly not straightforward TCM, the BP translation gives you several directions to pursue that are built into the wiseman terminology format. 1. Go to a wiseman dictionary and the standardized terms used by BP are all keyed to pinyin and characters. So you can precisely determine the source chinese. No other translation methodology allows this type of sourcing. 2. Wiseman also provide extensive defintions of all obscure terms so no mistaken connotations are made by the reader.. > > 1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals for eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " This means that these herbs are all used to clear heat in cases where there is qi xu as the root cause. While bensky basically ignores this property in his MM, he is not the last word on the subject, by far. > > 2) " at their onset pathocoditions involving the sp/ st (always) > involve heat in the center. " Bu zhong yi qi tang is used for this… ???[My understanding of bu zhong is that it is for sunken yang (w/ qi xu),aversion to cold, thirst for warm beverages etcc.. yang (qi) xu signs (loose & watery stools), among others… (Bensky). Bensky notes that the thirst for warm beverages distinguishes the condition from xu heat.] Bensky also notes that fever (a symptom) and fever of unknown origin (a biomedical condition) are treated by BZYQT, but he does not elaborate. I was taught that spleen qi sinking often leads to damp, then dampheat, which can then disturb ministerial fire. Flaws has extensive commentary answering all your questions on the BP site. Many of the relevant articles are linked into the CHA library for your convenience, too. > > 3) Huang qi, ren shen, and zhi gan cao are sweet and sour (p.81) if these medicinals are employed after the heat has turned into cold this may exacerbate the disease. > [seemingly contradictory to the above Bensky s/s.] this last quote seem out of context to me. I'll look into it, unless someone else has an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 herb-t [herb-t] Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:56 AM Re: pi wei lun WROTE: I don't see why the BP translation would cause you a problem (especially since you have no option unless you read chinese). ------------ Well... I am learning to read Chinese, that is why I am wanting the original text... and could it be that the BP translation is incorrect (as so many translations we get are)... and yes I have been told that the translation is not adequate.. - While the passages you have quoted are certainly not straightforward TCM, the BP translation gives you several directions to pursue that are built into the wiseman terminology format. 1. Go to a wiseman dictionary and the standardized terms used by BP are all keyed to pinyin and characters. So you can precisely determine the source chinese. No other translation methodology allows this type of sourcing. ---------------------------- I am unclear what you talking about???? 1) Not straightforward tcm? Damp-heat, heat in the center, distressing heat, these are very simple concepts, that as far as I am concerned are basic TCM. 2) I am also unsure what you talking about by going to the Wiseman dictionary and determining the character.. this seems a little absurd, especially if the original translation is wrong.. going backwards is not going to give you the original character, and there are no characters in the BP translation.. And most importantly the character is useless without the context of the other characters surrounding it. This, I believe, is the biggest flaw (esp. Flaws) in methods of translation. There seems to be little consideration to the actual linguistic nuances involved in Chinese language (i.e. context sensitive interpretations of the characters.) just looking up a character, writing down the translation, looking up the next character, writing down the translation, is not translating Chinese language. Finally, I do not believe that the BP translation uses Wiseman terminology, so going backwards is even more impossible. So... to " precisely determine the source Chinese " seems impossible, maybe you could demonstrate to us how this could be done with the current BP translation and a method you describe. And what do you mean by " No other translation methodology allows this type of sourcing " ???? 2. Wiseman also provide extensive defintions of all obscure terms so no mistaken connotations are made by the reader.. ---- Again... if the original translation is not using Wiseman terminology then this is not possible. A perfect example is the controversial term " yin huo " or yin fire... Wiseman's definition (which is far from extensive) is also far from the pi wei lun's concept. ------ > > 1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals for eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " This means that these herbs are all used to clear heat in cases where there is qi xu as the root cause. While bensky basically ignores this property in his MM, he is not the last word on the subject, by far. ------------------ From the above quote, where do you get that these herbs " clear heat in cases where there is qi xu as the root cause. " ?? If you believe this to be correct, could you please elaborate? If we use your idea of translating from Wiseman, distress = acute disturbance. Damp heat and an acute disturbance (of heat) seems to be far from heat from qi xu. --------------------- > > 2) " at their onset pathocoditions involving the sp/ st (always) > involve heat in the center. " Bu zhong yi qi tang is used for this... ???[My understanding of bu zhong is that it is for sunken yang (w/ qi xu),aversion to cold, thirst for warm beverages etcc.. yang (qi) xu signs (loose & watery stools), among others... (Bensky). Bensky notes that the thirst for warm beverages distinguishes the condition from xu heat.] Bensky also notes that fever (a symptom) and fever of unknown origin (a biomedical condition) are treated by BZYQT, but he does not elaborate. I was taught that spleen qi sinking often leads to damp, then dampheat, which can then disturb ministerial fire. Flaws has extensive commentary answering all your questions on the BP site. Many of the relevant articles are linked into the CHA library for your convenience, too. To be more precise Bensky says the " fx is useful is treating many types of chronic low grade fever, including some which fall into the modern biomedical category of fevers of unknown origin. " .. he also notes that it is CI for fever due to heat from yin xu. Personally, I do not find that Flaw's commentary answers all my questions, it actually answers very few (of them). Currently I am very skeptical of his translations/commentary, meaning no disrespect. But thank you for your suggestion. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 Personally, I do not find that Flaw's commentary answers all my questions, it actually answers very few (of them). Currently I am very skeptical of his translations/commentary, meaning no disrespect. But thank you for your suggestion. - >>>Stay sharp Alon - " " Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:28 PM RE: Re: pi wei lun herb-t [herb-t] Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:56 AM Re: pi wei lun WROTE: I don't see why the BP translation would cause you a problem (especially since you have no option unless you read chinese). ------------ Well... I am learning to read Chinese, that is why I am wanting the original text... and could it be that the BP translation is incorrect (as so many translations we get are)... and yes I have been told that the translation is not adequate.. - While the passages you have quoted are certainly not straightforward TCM, the BP translation gives you several directions to pursue that are built into the wiseman terminology format. 1. Go to a wiseman dictionary and the standardized terms used by BP are all keyed to pinyin and characters. So you can precisely determine the source chinese. No other translation methodology allows this type of sourcing. ---------------------------- I am unclear what you talking about???? 1) Not straightforward tcm? Damp-heat, heat in the center, distressing heat, these are very simple concepts, that as far as I am concerned are basic TCM. 2) I am also unsure what you talking about by going to the Wiseman dictionary and determining the character.. this seems a little absurd, especially if the original translation is wrong.. going backwards is not going to give you the original character, and there are no characters in the BP translation.. And most importantly the character is useless without the context of the other characters surrounding it. This, I believe, is the biggest flaw (esp. Flaws) in methods of translation. There seems to be little consideration to the actual linguistic nuances involved in Chinese language (i.e. context sensitive interpretations of the characters.) just looking up a character, writing down the translation, looking up the next character, writing down the translation, is not translating Chinese language. Finally, I do not believe that the BP translation uses Wiseman terminology, so going backwards is even more impossible. So... to " precisely determine the source Chinese " seems impossible, maybe you could demonstrate to us how this could be done with the current BP translation and a method you describe. And what do you mean by " No other translation methodology allows this type of sourcing " ???? 2. Wiseman also provide extensive defintions of all obscure terms so no mistaken connotations are made by the reader.. ---- Again... if the original translation is not using Wiseman terminology then this is not possible. A perfect example is the controversial term " yin huo " or yin fire... Wiseman's definition (which is far from extensive) is also far from the pi wei lun's concept. ------ > > 1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals for eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " This means that these herbs are all used to clear heat in cases where there is qi xu as the root cause. While bensky basically ignores this property in his MM, he is not the last word on the subject, by far. ------------------ From the above quote, where do you get that these herbs " clear heat in cases where there is qi xu as the root cause. " ?? If you believe this to be correct, could you please elaborate? If we use your idea of translating from Wiseman, distress = acute disturbance. Damp heat and an acute disturbance (of heat) seems to be far from heat from qi xu. --------------------- > > 2) " at their onset pathocoditions involving the sp/ st (always) > involve heat in the center. " Bu zhong yi qi tang is used for this... ???[My understanding of bu zhong is that it is for sunken yang (w/ qi xu),aversion to cold, thirst for warm beverages etcc.. yang (qi) xu signs (loose & watery stools), among others... (Bensky). Bensky notes that the thirst for warm beverages distinguishes the condition from xu heat.] Bensky also notes that fever (a symptom) and fever of unknown origin (a biomedical condition) are treated by BZYQT, but he does not elaborate. I was taught that spleen qi sinking often leads to damp, then dampheat, which can then disturb ministerial fire. Flaws has extensive commentary answering all your questions on the BP site. Many of the relevant articles are linked into the CHA library for your convenience, too. To be more precise Bensky says the " fx is useful is treating many types of chronic low grade fever, including some which fall into the modern biomedical category of fevers of unknown origin. " .. he also notes that it is CI for fever due to heat from yin xu. Personally, I do not find that Flaw's commentary answers all my questions, it actually answers very few (of them). Currently I am very skeptical of his translations/commentary, meaning no disrespect. But thank you for your suggestion. - ------ Where do sports heroes like Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm, Vince Carter and Peyton Manning hang out? Where else? Click now and find 'em all here! http://click./1/6211/11/_/542111/_/962825537/ ------ Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2000 Report Share Posted July 7, 2000 At 10:24 AM 7/5/00 -0700, wrote: >1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals for >eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " >[unsure what this means???] Jason, I chave checked for you the Chinese text: " Piwei lun " in " Dongyuan Yiji " (Collection of medical works of Dongyuan) Redactors: Ding Guangdi & Wen Kui Renmin weisheng chubanshe, 1995 (2nd edition) Page 81 ...Chu shire, fanre zhi shengyao ye. chu shire:eliminate dampheat fanre: heat vexation shengyao:divine medicinals (Chinese text) Note #3: Dampheat? (shire) In this specific context, " dampheat " is an expression refering to <Yinfire taking over (overwhelming) (cheng2) the earth (Spleen). Damp refers to Spleen/ Stomach Heat refers to Yinfire!! These expressions are specific to the theory of Li Dongyuan and this narrow meaning of " dampheat " is not equivalent to the general understanding of " dampheat " (end of the Chinese note). Philip Riviere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2000 Report Share Posted July 11, 2000 Thanx for the reply and getting the Chinese … unfortunately, things definitely still seem a little unclear... Philip, If the translation says, ‘eliminate dampheat’… 1) why do you say that damp = spleen/stomach? 2) and heat = yin fire? (He uses the term elsewhere in the text (yin huo), why not at this point? 3) if so... are you then saying there is yin fire in the spleen/stomach? -- this again does not make sense to me, my translation’s discussion basically says that yin fire is a dislocated ministerial fire (originating from the lower burner and disrupting the heart) -- this being the case explains part of the translation, heat vexation which Wiseman translates as “ heart vexation accompanied by heat effusion... " If you have a scanner, would it be possible to scan the Chinese for this chapter and attach it to a post? -Jason -----Original Message----- Philip Riviere [riviere] At 10:24 AM 7/5/00 -0700, wrote: >1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals for >eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " >[unsure what this means???] Jason, I chave checked for you the Chinese text: " Piwei lun " in " Dongyuan Yiji " (Collection of medical works of Dongyuan) Redactors: Ding Guangdi & Wen Kui Renmin weisheng chubanshe, 1995 (2nd edition) Page 81 ...Chu shire, fanre zhi shengyao ye. chu shire:eliminate dampheat fanre: heat vexation shengyao:divine medicinals (Chinese text) Note #3: Dampheat? (shire) In this specific context, " dampheat " is an expression refering to <Yinfire taking over (overwhelming) (cheng2) the earth (Spleen). Damp refers to Spleen/ Stomach Heat refers to Yinfire!! These expressions are specific to the theory of Li Dongyuan and this narrow meaning of " dampheat " is not equivalent to the general understanding of " dampheat " (end of the Chinese note). Philip Riviere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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