Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 Nihao Jason-- How is it going for you studying Chinese? What approach are you using? I am very interested in learning Chinese but haven't made enough time for formal instruction. Currently, I've been focusing on P.Unschuld's translation of Qin Bowei's Zhongyi rumen. Zaijian Aris Skaliotis , " " <@o...> wrote: > > > herb-t@s... [herb-t@s...] > Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:56 AM > > Re: pi wei lun > WROTE: > > I don't see why the BP translation would cause you a problem > (especially since you have no option unless you read chinese). > ------------ > Well... I am learning to read Chinese, that is why I am wanting the original > text... and could it be that the BP translation is incorrect (as so many > translations we get are)... and yes I have been told that the translation is > not adequate.. > - > > While the passages you have quoted are certainly not > straightforward TCM, the BP translation gives you several > directions to pursue that are built into the wiseman terminology > format. > 1. Go to a wiseman dictionary and the standardized terms used > by BP are all keyed to pinyin and characters. So you can > precisely determine the source chinese. No other translation > methodology allows this type of sourcing. > ---------------------------- > > I am unclear what you talking about???? 1) Not straightforward tcm? > Damp-heat, heat in the center, distressing heat, these are very simple > concepts, that as far as I am concerned are basic TCM. > 2) I am also unsure what you talking about by going to the Wiseman > dictionary and determining the character.. this seems a little absurd, > especially if the original translation is wrong.. going backwards is not > going to give you the original character, and there are no characters in the > BP translation.. And most importantly the character is useless without the > context of the other characters surrounding it. This, I believe, is the > biggest flaw (esp. Flaws) in methods of translation. There seems to be > little consideration to the actual linguistic nuances involved in Chinese > language (i.e. context sensitive interpretations of the characters.) just > looking up a character, writing down the translation, looking up the next > character, writing down the translation, is not translating Chinese > language. Finally, I do not believe that the BP translation uses Wiseman > terminology, so going backwards is even more impossible. So... to > " precisely determine the source Chinese " seems impossible, maybe you could > demonstrate to us how this could be done with the current BP translation and > a method you describe. And what do you mean by " No other translation > methodology allows this type of sourcing " ???? > > > 2. Wiseman also provide extensive defintions of all obscure > terms so no mistaken connotations are made by the reader.. > ---- > Again... if the original translation is not using Wiseman terminology then > this is not possible. A perfect example is the controversial term " yin huo " > or yin fire... Wiseman's definition (which is far from extensive) is also > far from the pi wei lun's concept. > ------ > > > > > 1) Huang Qi, zhi gan cao, ren shen " are divine medicinals > for eliminating damp heat and distressing heat (p. 77) " > > This means that these herbs are all used to clear heat in cases > where there is qi xu as the root cause. While bensky basically > ignores this property in his MM, he is not the last word on the > subject, by far. > ------------------ > From the above quote, where do you get that these herbs " clear heat in cases > where there is qi xu as the root cause. " ?? If you believe this to be > correct, could you please elaborate? If we use your idea of translating > from Wiseman, distress = acute disturbance. Damp heat and an acute > disturbance (of heat) seems to be far from heat from qi xu. > --------------------- > > > > > 2) " at their onset pathocoditions involving the sp/ st > (always) > > involve heat in the center. " Bu zhong yi qi tang is used for > this... ???[My understanding of bu zhong is that it is for sunken > yang (w/ qi xu),aversion to cold, thirst for warm beverages etcc.. > yang (qi) xu signs (loose & watery stools), among others... > (Bensky). Bensky notes that the thirst for warm beverages > distinguishes the condition from xu heat.] > > Bensky also notes that fever (a symptom) and fever of unknown > origin (a biomedical condition) are treated by BZYQT, but he > does not elaborate. I was taught that spleen qi sinking often > leads to damp, then dampheat, which can then disturb > ministerial fire. Flaws has extensive commentary answering all > your questions on the BP site. Many of the relevant articles are > linked into the CHA library for your convenience, too. > To be more precise Bensky says the " fx is useful is treating many types of > chronic low grade fever, including some which fall into the modern > biomedical category of fevers of unknown origin. " .. he also notes that it > is CI for fever due to heat from yin xu. > > Personally, I do not find that Flaw's commentary answers all my questions, > it actually answers very few (of them). Currently I am very skeptical of > his translations/commentary, meaning no disrespect. But thank you for your > suggestion. > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2000 Report Share Posted July 5, 2000 Aris, I am taking a few approaches: 1) learning and memorizing as many pertinent (medically-related) characters as possible- flashcards 2) Understanding what elements and ideas make up each character (if pertinent) 3) how characters influence other characters in context etc..(basic sentence structure / grammar... etc..) 4) Trying to learn how to write... 5) and the hardest 'trying' to understand Chinese culture, lang.(writing) etc. in relation to medicine and the medical texts I am doing all this with the help of a few books: Essential Medical Chinese book I (Han), a book my teacher wrote, and some dictionaries.. and internet sites... I really don't know what I am doing, and am just experimenting/ reading anything I can get a hold of.. Also I am especially skeptical (as mentioned before) of many of the translations currently out, as well as people/ systems that claim that 'you can translate Chinese classics in 14 hours' (no names mentioned....) How is the Unschuls's zhong yi rumen? I have not seen that...what is it? zai jian - Nihao Jason-- How is it going for you studying Chinese? What approach are you using? I am very interested in learning Chinese but haven't made enough time for formal instruction. Currently, I've been focusing on P.Unschuld's translation of Qin Bowei's Zhongyi rumen. Zaijian Aris Skaliotis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2000 Report Share Posted July 9, 2000 Nihao Jason- Thanks for the reply. I am very much in the same predicament as yourself. As a student at NESA I picked up the two volume series " Learn to Read Chinese " by Paul Unschuld. This method emphasizes the use of an introductory TCM text as a way to understand the medical language in context. The books are published by Paradigm and there is also a tape available if you are interested in pronounciation of the characters. I find it helpful to pronounce the characters as another hook in my mind. It sounds from your post that you already have enough material though. Also, I have picked up Flaws' " Learn to Read Chinese " . I think it has some merit and can appreciate Bob's push for people to translate characters from Chinese language sources. I can also appreciate your skepticism. Take a look at Zhongwen.com and let me know what you think. I have been using the Geneological Dictionary and find it very interesting as to how characters have evolved and been built on one another. Zaijian Aris Skaliotis , " " <@o...> wrote: > Aris, > > I am taking a few approaches: > 1) learning and memorizing as many pertinent (medically-related) characters > as possible- flashcards > 2) Understanding what elements and ideas make up each character (if > pertinent) > 3) how characters influence other characters in context etc..(basic sentence > structure / grammar... etc..) > 4) Trying to learn how to write... > 5) and the hardest 'trying' to understand Chinese culture, lang.(writing) > etc. in relation to medicine and the medical texts > > I am doing all this with the help of a few books: Essential Medical Chinese > book I (Han), a book my teacher wrote, and some dictionaries.. and internet > sites... > I really don't know what I am doing, and am just experimenting/ reading > anything I can get a hold of.. > Also I am especially skeptical (as mentioned before) of many of the > translations currently out, as well as people/ systems that claim that 'you > can translate Chinese classics in 14 hours' (no names mentioned....) > > How is the Unschuls's zhong yi rumen? I have not seen that...what is it? > > zai jian > > - > Nihao Jason-- > How is it going for you studying Chinese? What approach > are you using? I am very interested in learning Chinese but > haven't made enough time for formal instruction. Currently, I've > been focusing on P.Unschuld's translation of Qin Bowei's Zhongyi > rumen. > > Zaijian > Aris Skaliotis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2000 Report Share Posted July 10, 2000 Ni Hao Aris/Jason, Looks like there are more people in the boat as I am. Along with the methods mentioned below, zhongwen.com is wonderful and I would strongly advise that you take a look at it Jason. One other thing I use is the book by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J - Chinese Characters - Their origin, etymology, history, classification and signitifaction. This book has been a great help in understanding the characters and therefore helped in the memorization process. Zai Jian, Laxman , " Aris Skaliotis " <askaliotis@n...> wrote: > Nihao Jason- > > Thanks for the reply. I am very much in the same predicament as > yourself. As a student at NESA I picked up the two volume series > " Learn to Read Chinese " by Paul Unschuld. This method emphasizes the > use of an introductory TCM text as a way to understand the medical > language in context. The books are published by Paradigm and there is > also a tape available if you are interested in pronounciation of the > characters. I find it helpful to pronounce the characters as another > hook in my mind. It sounds from your post that you already have > enough > material though. > Also, I have picked up Flaws' " Learn to Read Chinese " . I think it has > some merit and can appreciate Bob's push for people to translate > characters from Chinese language sources. I can also appreciate your > skepticism. > Take a look at Zhongwen.com and let me know what you think. I have > been using the Geneological Dictionary and find it very interesting > as > to how characters have evolved and been built on one another. > > Zaijian > > Aris Skaliotis > , " " > <@o...> > wrote: > > Aris, > > > > I am taking a few approaches: > > 1) learning and memorizing as many pertinent (medically-related) > characters > > as possible- flashcards > > 2) Understanding what elements and ideas make up each character (if > > pertinent) > > 3) how characters influence other characters in context etc..(basic > sentence > > structure / grammar... etc..) > > 4) Trying to learn how to write... > > 5) and the hardest 'trying' to understand Chinese culture, > lang.(writing) > > etc. in relation to medicine and the medical texts > > > > I am doing all this with the help of a few books: Essential Medical > Chinese > > book I (Han), a book my teacher wrote, and some dictionaries.. and > internet > > sites... > > I really don't know what I am doing, and am just experimenting/ > reading > > anything I can get a hold of.. > > Also I am especially skeptical (as mentioned before) of many of the > > translations currently out, as well as people/ systems that claim > that 'you > > can translate Chinese classics in 14 hours' (no names mentioned....) > > > > How is the Unschuls's zhong yi rumen? I have not seen that...what > is > it? > > > > zai jian > > > > - > > Nihao Jason-- > > How is it going for you studying Chinese? What approach > > are you using? I am very interested in learning Chinese but > > haven't made enough time for formal instruction. Currently, I've > > been focusing on P.Unschuld's translation of Qin Bowei's Zhongyi > > rumen. > > > > Zaijian > > Aris Skaliotis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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