raw versus cooked

[Guest guest]

While China is home to hundreds of distinct cultures and the central government

has exerted control over many of these diverse people fro thousands of

years, the chinese population exhibits a certain genetic homogeneity.

This is clear from the distinct Asian facial features and skin color.

This is also true of some middle eastern peoples, native americans,

africans and northern europeans. In fact, one of the assumptions of the

blood type diet is that peoples who evolved in different environments from

subsets of homo sapiens developed food cultures adapted to their unique

genomes. Now it is widely recognized that all humans are the same

species and race is considered to have no significant genetic basis.

Race merely reflects adaptations to particular environments over a long

term. Part of this adaptation may be reflected in blood type clustering.

I don't know the specifics, but type O is prevalent in certain northern

europeans, for example. What type is prevalent amongst ethnic chinese

(as distinct from chinese nationals which include hundreds of cultures,

as stated)?

It may be that Chinese dietetics did not observe differences based on

genetics and blood type because the court medicine may have developed amongst

an elite segment of the population who may have actually had the same blood

type. The diversity of traditional worldwide ideas on diet seems

to bear considering in this light. So while TCM dietary basics may

be universal, the specifics might not be. I think there is agreement

in so many quarters (ayurveda, TCM, macrobiotics, modern research) on the

dangers of things like rancid fat, excess refined carbohydrates and low

vegetable diets that these can be considered almost universal. But

it may also very well be true that some people have low grade blood reactions

to certain types of foods (based on their lectin content in blood type

therapy) according to genetic peculiarities. Thus, there are also distinct

differences in food therapy prescribed by such as hippocrates, maimonides,

avicenna and zhu dan xi, all learned scholars in their culture and era.

But the issue is still not cooked versus raw foods. As far as

I can tell, the ethnic foods of the middle east, india, africa, etc. all

center on cooked foods. I think this issue also raise another comparison

with herbology practice, keeping in mind that food and herbs exist on a

continuum in TCM. We have talked a lot on this list about forms of

herbs and extraction methods. While we do not have a consensus on

what constitutes the best form of herbs, everyone seems to agree that some

form of preparation is necessary. Most people have dismissed ground

raw herbs, though pills of this sort appear to have been used for hundreds

of years in China. Grinding is the most basic form of extraction,

increasing surface area upon which the digestive juices can act.

However, this was never considered optimum by scholar physicians and even

in medieval China such products were often made with profit as the main

incentive. So wine extraction, decoction, syrups, drafts were preferred

by doctors. But even grinding is a step beyond chewing uncooked herbs.

Grinding also generates heat that helps break down fiber, too.

So if we all agree that some form of preparation is necessary to get

the potency out of herbs, why wouldn't the same be generally true of food?

I mean decoctions and granules have definitely been denatured regarding

enzyme content and all vitamin c is destroyed, yet all the successful TCM

research has been done on these products. As my staff naturopath

corrected me one time, "we are not what we eat, we are what assimilate".

The question that hovers over this discussion is why would humans be more

adapted to a cooked food diet, since this is clearly not natural, at least

to the extent that ALL other animals eat raw foods?

As stated in a previous post, it now likely that home erectus controlled

fire and that homo sapiens (modern humans) have always had fire and thus

the ability to cook their food (and extract their herbs as soup/tang).

And this "technology", which allowed preservation of gatherings and scavenging

beyond normal spoilage dates gave humans a vital advantage over competitor

hominids. We have not evolved physically since that time, which supports

the conventional anthropological view that it is culture that has allowed

the continuing adaptation of humanity worldwide. We don't need to

evolve physically in our current environment because culture and technology

adapt for us (now that may change, but that's a whole nuther topic).

And the transforming power of fire was the one of the first technological

tools.

In addition, it is a mistaken notion that evolution has any "interest"

in longevity. Evolution "cares" about reproductive fitness, nothing

more, nothing less. So it could also be argued that the raw diet

of primeval hominids (probably pre homeo sapiens, as mentioned) was not

necessarily healthy in the long term, but was adequate to provide nutrition

to offspring long enough to allow them to heartily reproduce themselves

at puberty. Contrary to romantic myths, these paleolithic tribes

were not long lived. Now death statistics can be confusing.

For instance, high infant mortality lowers the average age of death.

A fairer estimate of normal longevity is one that factors out infant mortality.

Infant and early childhood mortality was like 50% in ancient China.

But amongst those who made it to adulthood, average ages of death were

in the high 60's even early 70's. Even today, if you factor out China's

still higher infant mortality, the average age of death is about the same

as the west (and france and Japan's high average age of death may actually

turn out to be due largely to a statistical artifact related to their very

commendable low rates of infant mortality, like half of the US rate, rather

than any special diets or lifestyles).

On the other hand, widespread archaeology research in the past decade

has revealed endemic parasite infestation amongst most paleolithic peoples

studied and correspondingly short lives. Parasites are directly related

to eating raw foods, especially scavenged meats. And with regard

to scavenged meats, it is now also considered likely that early humans

were not skilled hunters, but rather scavenged the kills of carnivores,

whenever possible. It is very possible that in the course of human

cultural evolution (the last 500,000 years) we have discovered that longevity

is preferable to mere reproductive fitness and animal abandon. And

that while yang qi might be more present in raw foods, the trade-off is

parasites and chronic disease in early adulthood. Humans, because

of their self awareness, were able to evolve dramatically on another level.

Humans thus transformed their animal heritage into civilization worldwide

and one thing that was left behind by these great civilizations was a scavenged

diet of raw foods. I would thus suspect that the Chinese emphasis

on cooked foods and extracted herbs reflects a keen observation, not at

all a social more. Especially when you consider that the main proponents

of dietary therapy for a thousand years were Daoists who explicitly rejected

conventional mores.

 

[Guest guest]

I think you have stated the case on dietary therapy very well here, Todd.

I personally think that the blood type food therapy is incomplete, although it has some interesting ideas. Too arbitary. . . .there are other differentiations that are more fundamental in human beings than their blood types, such as overall constitution, climate, and, again, Chinese pattern diagnosis.

 

Gary: " I integrate all aspects of into my practice with the exception of Diet and Food Therapy, WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE IN based on my own experience. . . . "

 

Gary, I don't think the jury is out yet on the validity or lack of thereof on Chinese dietetics, as so little has been translated or taught in the West. China is a huge society with many cultures, diets, and a long history of food-based medicine. It would be more accurate to say you choose not to believe in the small amount of data on Chinese dietary therapy you have been exposed to, and that it is easier to understand and apply a method that has wide exposure, practice and discussion here in the West (and fits in nicely with the paradigm of biomedicine). One can not decide a case with a lack of evidence on one side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on 7/22/00 11:39 AM, Todd at herb-t wrote:

 

While China is home to hundreds of distinct cultures and the central government has exerted control over many of these diverse people fro thousands of years, the chinese population exhibits a certain genetic homogeneity. This is clear from the distinct Asian facial features and skin color. This is also true of some middle eastern peoples, native americans, africans and northern europeans. In fact, one of the assumptions of the blood type diet is that peoples who evolved in different environments from subsets of homo sapiens developed food cultures adapted to their unique genomes. Now it is widely recognized that all humans are the same species and race is considered to have no significant genetic basis. Race merely reflects adaptations to particular environments over a long term. Part of this adaptation may be reflected in blood type clustering. I don't know the specifics, but type O is prevalent in certain northern europeans, for example. What type is prevalent amongst ethnic chinese (as distinct from chinese nationals which include hundreds of cultures, as stated)?

 

It may be that Chinese dietetics did not observe differences based on genetics and blood type because the court medicine may have developed amongst an elite segment of the population who may have actually had the same blood type. The diversity of traditional worldwide ideas on diet seems to bear considering in this light. So while TCM dietary basics may be universal, the specifics might not be. I think there is agreement in so many quarters (ayurveda, TCM, macrobiotics, modern research) on the dangers of things like rancid fat, excess refined carbohydrates and low vegetable diets that these can be considered almost universal. But it may also very well be true that some people have low grade blood reactions to certain types of foods (based on their lectin content in blood type therapy) according to genetic peculiarities. Thus, there are also distinct differences in food therapy prescribed by such as hippocrates, maimonides, avicenna and zhu dan xi, all learned scholars in their culture and era.

 

But the issue is still not cooked versus raw foods. As far as I can tell, the ethnic foods of the middle east, india, africa, etc. all center on cooked foods. I think this issue also raise another comparison with herbology practice, keeping in mind that food and herbs exist on a continuum in TCM. We have talked a lot on this list about forms of herbs and extraction methods. While we do not have a consensus on what constitutes the best form of herbs, everyone seems to agree that some form of preparation is necessary. Most people have dismissed ground raw herbs, though pills of this sort appear to have been used for hundreds of years in China. Grinding is the most basic form of extraction, increasing surface area upon which the digestive juices can act. However, this was never considered optimum by scholar physicians and even in medieval China such products were often made with profit as the main incentive. So wine extraction, decoction, syrups, drafts were preferred by doctors. But even grinding is a step beyond chewing uncooked herbs. Grinding also generates heat that helps break down fiber, too.

 

So if we all agree that some form of preparation is necessary to get the potency out of herbs, why wouldn't the same be generally true of food? I mean decoctions and granules have definitely been denatured regarding enzyme content and all vitamin c is destroyed, yet all the successful TCM research has been done on these products. As my staff naturopath corrected me one time, " we are not what we eat, we are what assimilate " . The question that hovers over this discussion is why would humans be more adapted to a cooked food diet, since this is clearly not natural, at least to the extent that ALL other animals eat raw foods?

 

As stated in a previous post, it now likely that home erectus controlled fire and that homo sapiens (modern humans) have always had fire and thus the ability to cook their food (and extract their herbs as soup/tang). And this " technology " , which allowed preservation of gatherings and scavenging beyond normal spoilage dates gave humans a vital advantage over competitor hominids. We have not evolved physically since that time, which supports the conventional anthropological view that it is culture that has allowed the continuing adaptation of humanity worldwide. We don't need to evolve physically in our current environment because culture and technology adapt for us (now that may change, but that's a whole nuther topic). And the transforming power of fire was the one of the first technological tools.

 

In addition, it is a mistaken notion that evolution has any " interest " in longevity. Evolution " cares " about reproductive fitness, nothing more, nothing less. So it could also be argued that the raw diet of primeval hominids (probably pre homeo sapiens, as mentioned) was not necessarily healthy in the long term, but was adequate to provide nutrition to offspring long enough to allow them to heartily reproduce themselves at puberty. Contrary to romantic myths, these paleolithic tribes were not long lived. Now death statistics can be confusing. For instance, high infant mortality lowers the average age of death. A fairer estimate of normal longevity is one that factors out infant mortality. Infant and early childhood mortality was like 50% in ancient China. But amongst those who made it to adulthood, average ages of death were in the high 60's even early 70's. Even today, if you factor out China's still higher infant mortality, the average age of death is about the same as the west (and france and Japan's high average age of death may actually turn out to be due largely to a statistical artifact related to their very commendable low rates of infant mortality, like half of the US rate, rather than any special diets or lifestyles).

 

On the other hand, widespread archaeology research in the past decade has revealed endemic parasite infestation amongst most paleolithic peoples studied and correspondingly short lives. Parasites are directly related to eating raw foods, especially scavenged meats. And with regard to scavenged meats, it is now also considered likely that early humans were not skilled hunters, but rather scavenged the kills of carnivores, whenever possible. It is very possible that in the course of human cultural evolution (the last 500,000 years) we have discovered that longevity is preferable to mere reproductive fitness and animal abandon. And that while yang qi might be more present in raw foods, the trade-off is parasites and chronic disease in early adulthood. Humans, because of their self awareness, were able to evolve dramatically on another level. Humans thus transformed their animal heritage into civilization worldwide and one thing that was left behind by these great civilizations was a scavenged diet of raw foods. I would thus suspect that the Chinese emphasis on cooked foods and extracted herbs reflects a keen observation, not at all a social more. Especially when you consider that the main proponents of dietary therapy for a thousand years were Daoists who explicitly rejected conventional mores.

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev is there a more complete source of info on on diet therapy i have been in search for along time....I would much appreciate any info you have

 

Alighta Averbukh

 

-

 

Saturday, July 22, 2000 11:34 PM

Re: raw versus cooked

I think you have stated the case on dietary therapy very well here, Todd.I personally think that the blood type food therapy is incomplete, although it has some interesting ideas. Too arbitary. . . .there are other differentiations that are more fundamental in human beings than their blood types, such as overall constitution, climate, and, again, Chinese pattern diagnosis. Gary: "I integrate all aspects of into my practice with the exception of Diet and Food Therapy, WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE IN based on my own experience. . . ."Gary, I don't think the jury is out yet on the validity or lack of thereof on Chinese dietetics, as so little has been translated or taught in the West. China is a huge society with many cultures, diets, and a long history of food-based medicine. It would be more accurate to say you choose not to believe in the small amount of data on Chinese dietary therapy you have been exposed to, and that it is easier to understand and apply a method that has wide exposure, practice and discussion here in the West (and fits in nicely with the paradigm of biomedicine). One can not decide a case with a lack of evidence on one side. on 7/22/00 11:39 AM, Todd at herb-t wrote:

While China is home to hundreds of distinct cultures and the central government has exerted control over many of these diverse people fro thousands of years, the chinese population exhibits a certain genetic homogeneity. This is clear from the distinct Asian facial features and skin color. This is also true of some middle eastern peoples, native americans, africans and northern europeans. In fact, one of the assumptions of the blood type diet is that peoples who evolved in different environments from subsets of homo sapiens developed food cultures adapted to their unique genomes. Now it is widely recognized that all humans are the same species and race is considered to have no significant genetic basis. Race merely reflects adaptations to particular environments over a long term. Part of this adaptation may be reflected in blood type clustering. I don't know the specifics, but type O is prevalent in certain northern europeans, for example. & nbs! p;What type is prevalent amongst ethnic chinese (as distinct from chinese nationals which include hundreds of cultures, as stated)? It may be that Chinese dietetics did not observe differences based on genetics and blood type because the court medicine may have developed amongst an elite segment of the population who may have actually had the same blood type. The diversity of traditional worldwide ideas on diet seems to bear considering in this light. So while TCM dietary basics may be universal, the specifics might not be. I think there is agreement in so many quarters (ayurveda, TCM, macrobiotics, modern research) on the dangers of things like rancid fat, excess refined carbohydrates and low vegetable diets that these can be considered almost universal. But it may also very well be true that some people have low grade blood reactions to certain types of foods (based on their lectin content in blood type therapy) according to genetic peculiarities. Thus, there are also distinct differences in food therapy prescribed by such as hippocrates, maimonides, avicenna and zhu dan xi, all! learned scholars in their culture and era. But the issue is still not cooked versus raw foods. As far as I can tell, the ethnic foods of the middle east, india, africa, etc. all center on cooked foods. I think this issue also raise another comparison with herbology practice, keeping in mind that food and herbs exist on a continuum in TCM. We have talked a lot on this list about forms of herbs and extraction methods. While we do not have a consensus on what constitutes the best form of herbs, everyone seems to agree that some form of preparation is necessary. Most people have dismissed ground raw herbs, though pills of this sort appear to have been used for hundreds of years in China. Grinding is the most basic form of extraction, increasing surface area upon which the digestive juices can act. However, this was never considered optimum by scholar physicians and even in medieval China such products were often made with profit as the main incentive. So wine extraction, decoctio! n, syrups, drafts were preferred by doctors. But even grinding is a step beyond chewing uncooked herbs. Grinding also generates heat that helps break down fiber, too. So if we all agree that some form of preparation is necessary to get the potency out of herbs, why wouldn't the same be generally true of food? I mean decoctions and granules have definitely been denatured regarding enzyme content and all vitamin c is destroyed, yet all the successful TCM research has been done on these products. As my staff naturopath corrected me one time, "we are not what we eat, we are what assimilate". The question that hovers over this discussion is why would humans be more adapted to a cooked food diet, since this is clearly not natural, at least to the extent that ALL other animals eat raw foods? As stated in a previous post, it now likely that home erectus controlled fire and that homo sapiens (modern humans) have always had fire and thus the ability to cook their food (and extract their herbs as soup/tang). And this "technology", which allowed preservation of gatherings and scavenging beyond normal spoilage dates gave humans a vital advantage over competitor hominids. We have not evolved physically since that time, which supports the conventional anthropological view that it is culture that has allowed the continuing adaptation of humanity worldwide. We don't need to evolve physically in our current environment because culture and technology adapt for us (now that may change, but that's a whole nuther topic). And the transforming power of fire was the one of the first technological tools. In addition, it is a mistaken notion that evolution has any "interest" in longevity. Evolution "cares" about reproductive fitness, nothing more, nothing less. So it could also be argued that the raw diet of primeval hominids (probably pre homeo sapiens, as mentioned) was not necessarily healthy in the long term, but was adequate to provide nutrition to offspring long enough to allow them to heartily reproduce themselves at puberty. Contrary to romantic myths, these paleolithic tribes were not long lived. Now death statistics can be confusing. For instance, high infant mortality lowers the average age of death. A fairer estimate of normal longevity is one that factors out infant mortality. Infant and early childhood mortality was like 50% in ancient China. But amongst those who made it to adulthood, average ages of death were in the high 60's even early 70's. Even today, if you factor out China's still higher infant mortality,! the average age of death is about the same as the west (and france and Japan's high average age of death may actually turn out to be due largely to a statistical artifact related to their very commendable low rates of infant mortality, like half of the US rate, rather than any special diets or lifestyles). On the other hand, widespread archaeology research in the past decade has revealed endemic parasite infestation amongst most paleolithic peoples studied and correspondingly short lives. Parasites are directly related to eating raw foods, especially scavenged meats. And with regard to scavenged meats, it is now also considered likely that early humans were not skilled hunters, but rather scavenged the kills of carnivores, whenever possible. It is very possible that in the course of human cultural evolution (the last 500,000 years) we have discovered that longevity is preferable to mere reproductive fitness and animal abandon. And that while yang qi might be more present in raw foods, the trade-off is parasites and chronic disease in early adulthood. Humans, because of their self awareness, were able to evolve dramatically on another level. Humans thus transformed their animal heritage into civilization worldwide and one thing that was left behind! by these great civilizations was a scavenged diet of raw foods. I would thus suspect that the Chinese emphasis on cooked foods and extracted herbs reflects a keen observation, not at all a social more. Especially when you consider that the main proponents of dietary therapy for a thousand years were Daoists who explicitly rejected conventional mores. Todd

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 7/23/00 8:37 AM, Alighta Averbukh at alighta wrote:

 

Z'ev is there a more complete source of info on on diet therapy i have been in search for along time....I would much appreciate any info you have

 

Alighta Averbukh

A great text just came out, but it is 225.00.. . .called " A Soup for the Qan " , about dietary prescriptions for the mongol royalty during the Jin-Yuan dynasty. My general text, that I like, although I don't know how " Chinese " it is, is " Healing With Whole Foods " by Paul Pitchford, North Atlantic Books. Also, unfortunately out of print, " Yojokun " by Ekiken Kaibara, a Japanese physician of the 18th century and follower of Li Dong-yuan, who gives in-depth information on dietetics based on the Pi Wei Lun/Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach. I haven't really had the time to research the Chinese literature on this subject, mostly herbal texts is what I am trying to look at.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you i will check those out i have been using Pitchfords book for the last few years but have been wanting more info on the traditional dietetics.So again thanks for the sugestions.

 

Alighta

 

 

-

 

Sunday, July 23, 2000 11:08 AM

Re: raw versus cooked

on 7/23/00 8:37 AM, Alighta Averbukh at alighta wrote:

Z'ev is there a more complete source of info on on diet therapy i have been in search for along time....I would much appreciate any info you have Alighta Averbukh A great text just came out, but it is 225.00.. . .called "A Soup for the Qan", about dietary prescriptions for the mongol royalty during the Jin-Yuan dynasty. My general text, that I like, although I don't know how "Chinese" it is, is "Healing With Whole Foods" by Paul Pitchford, North Atlantic Books. Also, unfortunately out of print, "Yojokun" by Ekiken Kaibara, a Japanese physician of the 18th century and follower of Li Dong-yuan, who gives in-depth information on dietetics based on the Pi Wei Lun/Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach. I haven't really had the time to research the Chinese literature on this subject, mostly herbal texts is what I am trying to look at.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> My general

> text, that I like, although I don't know how " Chinese " it

> is, is " Healing With Whole Foods " by Paul Pitchford, North

> Atlantic Books.

 

This is really an excellent book. I believe that its in its second

edition now.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

> on 7/23/00 8:37 AM, Alighta Averbukh at alighta@p... wrote:

 

My general text, that I like, although I don't know how " Chinese "

> it is, is " Healing With Whole Foods " by Paul Pitchford, North

Atlantic

> Books.

>

 

Pitchford is a layperson and a syncretist who appears to have only

very

basic knowledge of TCM and ayurveda, based completely on popular

derivative sources, not rigorous translations or even extensive

apprenticeship or training. His superficial emphasis on asian style

" energetics " is overshadowed by his obvious nature cure bias, in my

opinion. I also have to admit that while most of my patients seem

able

to abide by general dietary rules like avoiding greasy, spicy and

sweet, less than 5% are able to abide by specific and unusual dietary

restrictions for a long period of time. So whatever clinical value

there is to blood type diet or allergy therapy or even specific TCM

food therapy, I do not consider any of these viable mainstream

therapies. I remember being disappointed when I looked up nutrition

in

the Web that has No Weaver back in 1986 and found a one paragraph

passage indicating that while much had been written about this

subject,

patients in China did not follow dietary advice, so it was largely

glossed over, except in general terms. So these specific type of

dietary restrictions and therapies may have value for the limited

number of people who will comply and for our own personal self

cultivation, but with a population of 50% obese in America, its hard

enough to just get people to stop stuffing their faces with french

fries.

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

 

I too find that, asking a patient to restrict certain foods from their daily

diet, is very difficult for some patients to do. SO, I try to add herbs that

will begin to " tip the scale " towards more balance - in the way of " adding "

something instead of " taking it away / restricting it " . I might ask the

patient who has HTN - liv yang rising or heat symptoms - to drink

crysanthemum tea, getting them used to paying attention to what they are

putting into their bodies as well as how their body feels afterwards. I

think most americans don't have that connection between food and one's body-

functioning.Not learned in school - look what they feed children for school

lunch programs, not taught to us by our doctors. . ., mostly not practiced in

our families.

I also find that many patients don't pay attention to their overall body

functioning until we start asking our diagnostic questions.

 

In addition to adding herbs used as food (gou qi zi in oatmeal, congee, in

tea - with other herbs, like crysanthemum, so tasty and beautiful - green

onions in ...., sliced ginger as tea,....), I then begin to ask about

connections between diet and symptoms - suggesting that they restrict one

thing for two weeks to see if their is a connection. If there is, it oftens

encourages them in their diet changes. A slow process of re-education for

sure, but seems to have more compliance and be longer lasting as they begin

to take responsibility for thier own health.

 

If anyone has easy herb/food adaptations to share, I would be very interested

in learning about them. Key word is easy. Thanks in advance.

 

Susan Froehlich, LAc

Hood River, OR USA

susfro

[Guest guest]

My two cents on diet therapy is that the specific foods that are an

aggrevation to someone's physiology and metabolism (allergies and food

sensitivities) are a substantially greater hinderance to good health than

the benefits gained from foods that are theoretically good for you. And,

genetic predisposition for reactions to certain foods often defies the

theoretical parameters of blood type and TCM dietary concepts. I have seen

more than one neuroactive response to canola oil which keeps people wide

awake for one or two nights after ingesting even minute amounts. If this

wasn't identified I would be trying to calm liver fire, and/or nourish yin

and heart, without success.

 

Stephen Morrissey OMD

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

Why separate out allergic responses from Chinese pattern diagnosis? Are

you implying that Chinese medical diagnosis cannot recognize reactions to

food or chemical substances ? Is it that we have not adequately translated

material on the subject, or studied deeply enough ?

 

I don't agree that the aggravation of allergens outweigh the importance

of foods that are " theoretically " good for you. And I don't agree that

there is some genetic predisposition to allergic foods. . . .but I guess it

depends on your 'clinical gaze', how you view the patient. In my

understanding of Chinese medicine, this is a vacuity pattern affecting the

patient, where foods react with the body in an abnormal way (i.e. xu xie,

vacuity pathogen, defined in the Nei Jing as a pathogen that is not

pathogenic in and of itself, but reacts with the body as one because of

weakness of the zheng qi/correct qi) . By supplement spleen and/or kidney

qi, this will often rectify the problem, also by finding an appropriate diet

for the patient's constitution. I find prescriptions such as gui zhi tang

work very well for such patients, or a program based on Li Dong-yuan to

boost the spleen and stomach.

 

Certainly, we have to choose diets to match the patient's constitution

and disease pattern.. . .for example, cold, damp foods will aggravate a

patient with spleen yang vacuity.

While there may be patients who have extreme reactions to such substances

as canola oil, which means they perceive it as a toxin or pathogen/evil, we

must ask WHY and HOW the body reacts (with what symptoms.. . in this case,

bu mei, lack of sleep), and treat the pattern, rather than only avoidance.

To say this is only genetic predisoposition to me is a cop-out to me. . .

..or that this problem somehow 'defies' TCM concepts. This only means to me

that we need to study more of our tradition to understand such phenomena,

and then do something about it. Or, if we adapt other methods, to

understand those according to Chinese medical theory.

 

If a food, such as canola oil, reacts so strongly with a patient, we need to

figure out why. Not just accept it as 'genetic', i.e., fixed and

untreatable.

 

This is another example to me, out of many that have appeared in this study

group and elsewhere, of how young our profession is in the West. We are too

eager to state that " Chinese medicine can't do this, or do that " , and turn

to blood types, clinical ecology, NAET, or kinesiology as alternatives to

Chinese medicine, rather than finding answers within our own medicine

through deeper study. There is nothing inherently wrong with many of these

methods, but being practitioners of Chinese medicine demands that we

understand any form of diagnosis and treatment that we undertake according

to Chinese medical theory.

 

 

 

 

 

on 7/23/00 9:38 PM, stephen at

stephen wrote:

 

> My two cents on diet therapy is that the specific foods that are an

> aggrevation to someone's physiology and metabolism (allergies and food

> sensitivities) are a substantially greater hinderance to good health than

> the benefits gained from foods that are theoretically good for you. And,

> genetic predisposition for reactions to certain foods often defies the

> theoretical parameters of blood type and TCM dietary concepts. I have seen

> more than one neuroactive response to canola oil which keeps people wide

> awake for one or two nights after ingesting even minute amounts. If this

> wasn't identified I would be trying to calm liver fire, and/or nourish yin

> and heart, without success.

>

> Stephen Morrissey OMD

[Guest guest]

SusFro wrote:

 

> getting [the patients] used to paying attention to what they are

> putting into their bodies as well as how their body feels afterwards.

 

I like that. Its pretty much what I discovered myself, trying out that

blood type diet. If it weren't for how good my body feels after eating

in accordance with the blood type food group thing, I'd be the last

person to admit buying that book.

 

I like the Type A diet, it makes me feel light, airy and full at the

same time. The food is as wonderful going out the metal yang ming as it

is going in the earth.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

This is another example to me, out of many that have appeared in this studygroup and elsewhere, of how young our profession is in the West.

 

>>>>

However, at least in my experience, Outcomes are often not better in China or by Chinese trained Dr here in the US. I have done follow up on patients for many years, calling patient of my teachers that I saw for example, and thus had an interesting perspective. I have done as much follow up in China as I could as well. In my opinion here in the west the opposite is true in that we are too eager to assume that we can treat almost any disease w/ TCM

Alon Marcus.

 

-

 

Sunday, July 23, 2000 10:04 PM

Re: Re: raw versus cooked

Stephen, Why separate out allergic responses from Chinese pattern diagnosis? Areyou implying that Chinese medical diagnosis cannot recognize reactions tofood or chemical substances ? Is it that we have not adequately translatedmaterial on the subject, or studied deeply enough ? I don't agree that the aggravation of allergens outweigh the importanceof foods that are "theoretically" good for you. And I don't agree thatthere is some genetic predisposition to allergic foods. . . .but I guess itdepends on your 'clinical gaze', how you view the patient. In myunderstanding of Chinese medicine, this is a vacuity pattern affecting thepatient, where foods react with the body in an abnormal way (i.e. xu xie,vacuity pathogen, defined in the Nei Jing as a pathogen that is notpathogenic in and of itself, but reacts with the body as one because ofweakness of the zheng qi/correct qi) . By supplement spleen and/or kidneyqi, this will often rectify the problem, also by finding an appropriate dietfor the patient's constitution. I find prescriptions such as gui zhi tangwork very well for such patients, or a program based on Li Dong-yuan toboost the spleen and stomach. Certainly, we have to choose diets to match the patient's constitutionand disease pattern.. . .for example, cold, damp foods will aggravate apatient with spleen yang vacuity. While there may be patients who have extreme reactions to such substancesas canola oil, which means they perceive it as a toxin or pathogen/evil, wemust ask WHY and HOW the body reacts (with what symptoms.. . in this case,bu mei, lack of sleep), and treat the pattern, rather than only avoidance.To say this is only genetic predisoposition to me is a cop-out to me. . ..or that this problem somehow 'defies' TCM concepts. This only means to methat we need to study more of our tradition to understand such phenomena,and then do something about it. Or, if we adapt other methods, tounderstand those according to Chinese medical theory.If a food, such as canola oil, reacts so strongly with a patient, we need tofigure out why. Not just accept it as 'genetic', i.e., fixed anduntreatable.This is another example to me, out of many that have appeared in this studygroup and elsewhere, of how young our profession is in the West. We are tooeager to state that "Chinese medicine can't do this, or do that", and turnto blood types, clinical ecology, NAET, or kinesiology as alternatives toChinese medicine, rather than finding answers within our own medicinethrough deeper study. There is nothing inherently wrong with many of thesemethods, but being practitioners of Chinese medicine demands that weunderstand any form of diagnosis and treatment that we undertake accordingto Chinese medical theory.on 7/23/00 9:38 PM, stephen atstephen wrote:> My two cents on diet therapy is that the specific foods that are an> aggrevation to someone's physiology and metabolism (allergies and food> sensitivities) are a substantially greater hinderance to good health than> the benefits gained from foods that are theoretically good for you. And,> genetic predisposition for reactions to certain foods often defies the> theoretical parameters of blood type and TCM dietary concepts. I have seen> more than one neuroactive response to canola oil which keeps people wide> awake for one or two nights after ingesting even minute amounts. If this> wasn't identified I would be trying to calm liver fire, and/or nourish yin> and heart, without success.> > Stephen Morrissey OMDChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Re, the comment below mine:

In my humble opinion, the epidemic obesity in this country is due the vast

consumption of Bovine Growth Hormone present in beef. Sedentary life styles

and the lack of exercise are the secondary cause. High fat diets are the

tertiary cause.

 

I come from a ranching background so I know of what I speak. Growth

Hormones are present in just about all commercially raised animals in this

country. You eat the animals, you consume these powerful chemicals. The

cummulative effect of this ingestion predisposes one to obesity, in the same

way the cummulative consumption by cattle of these hormones fatten them up

for market. By the way, my family only raises organic, grass fed beef.

The ranch workers in my experience, who consume high fat diets, but do not

eat commercially raised beef, do not become obese. They work too hard.

 

Gary Cordova

 

 

 

So these specific type of

> dietary restrictions and therapies may have value for the limited

> number of people who will comply and for our own personal self

> cultivation, but with a population of 50% obese in America, its hard

> enough to just get people to stop stuffing their faces with french

> fries.

>

>

>

> ------

> BTW: Did you buy that new car yet?

> If not, check this site out.

> They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car.

> http://click./1/6847/11/_/542111/_/964377629/

> ------

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

By the way, my family only raises organic, grass fed beef.The ranch workers in my experience, who consume high fat diets, but do noteat commercially raised beef, do not become obese. They work too hard.

>>>>I saw this in Chile as well. They eat tones of Fatty beef and are not fat and quite healthy

Alon

 

-

tenzin

Monday, July 24, 2000 12:20 PM

Re: Re: raw versus cooked

Re, the comment below mine:In my humble opinion, the epidemic obesity in this country is due the vastconsumption of Bovine Growth Hormone present in beef. Sedentary life stylesand the lack of exercise are the secondary cause. High fat diets are thetertiary cause.I come from a ranching background so I know of what I speak. GrowthHormones are present in just about all commercially raised animals in thiscountry. You eat the animals, you consume these powerful chemicals. Thecummulative effect of this ingestion predisposes one to obesity, in the sameway the cummulative consumption by cattle of these hormones fatten them upfor market. By the way, my family only raises organic, grass fed beef.The ranch workers in my experience, who consume high fat diets, but do noteat commercially raised beef, do not become obese. They work too hard.Gary Cordova So these specific type of> dietary restrictions and therapies may have value for the limited> number of people who will comply and for our own personal self> cultivation, but with a population of 50% obese in America, its hard> enough to just get people to stop stuffing their faces with french> fries.>>>> ------> BTW: Did you buy that new car yet?> If not, check this site out.> They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car.> http://click./1/6847/11/_/542111/_/964377629/> ------>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>>The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 7/24/00 4:32 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

Here, of course, you have the case of hard work, and superior quality meat in the diet. However, this diet and work regimen is not available to the average American, who is sedentary ( despite gym visits) and eats poor quality animal foods in abundance.

 

 

 

 

By the way, my family only raises organic, grass fed beef.

The ranch workers in my experience, who consume high fat diets, but do not

eat commercially raised beef, do not become obese. They work too hard.

>>>>

I saw this in Chile as well. They eat tones of Fatty beef and are not fat and quite healthy

Alon

-

[Guest guest]

True, Although there is some immerging evidence that as far as diabetes and heart dis a 30% fat diet w/ only complex carbs and 20-30% protein is better that a lower fat diet

Alon

 

-

 

Monday, July 24, 2000 5:00 PM

Re: Re: raw versus cooked

on 7/24/00 4:32 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

Here, of course, you have the case of hard work, and superior quality meat in the diet. However, this diet and work regimen is not available to the average American, who is sedentary ( despite gym visits) and eats poor quality animal foods in abundance. By the way, my family only raises organic, grass fed beef.The ranch workers in my experience, who consume high fat diets, but do noteat commercially raised beef, do not become obese. They work too hard.>>>>I saw this in Chile as well. They eat tones of Fatty beef and are not fat and quite healthyAlon

- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.