Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Could anyone tell me about the ingrediants of the immune disorder combination. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Heiko, ITM's 7 Forest Brand of Lithospermum 15 has the following ingredients: zicao lithospermum 9% danshen salvia 9% huangqi astragalus 8% tufuling smilax 7% chishao red peony 7% roucongrong cistanche 7% shudihuang rehmannia 7% nuzhenzi ligustrum 6% yinyanghuo epimedium 6% dangshen codonopsis 6% qinghao artemesia qinghao 6% zhimu anemarrhena 6% gouqizi lycium fruit 6% danggui dongquai 5% gancao licorice 5% It is my understanding that Subhuti Dharmananda formulates 7 Forest products based on classical formulas modified based on results from modern research, coupled with gentle strengths for westerners who have little experience taking herbal formulas. As a result, I think the formulas are significantly weaker than raw formulas, sort of like modified patents. I am currently using this formula for several patients with different immune disorders, including a 13 year old girl with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, a 47 year old man with rheumatoid arthritis, and a woman whose age I cannot remember with lupus. (I received a spate of about 6 people with immune disorders in about 2 week). However, none of them has been on the formula long enough for me to be able to note changes and in these cases, I anticipate the changes will be slow and subtle initially. There's one other 7 Forest formula I use REGULARLY, and that's Ardisia 16. It was formulated originally based on a formula to get people off of narcotics addiction. I use it for smoking cessation, but have also used it successfully to treat a retired dentist who had been addicted to valium/diazepam for about 26 years. I generally won't try to perform smoking cessation without also requiring a patient to take this formula and using an aromatherapy formulation made up of Chinese herbs that is breathed in 3-4 times a day and when the patient feels craving. I think it's called Smokers Aromatherapy. If anyone's interested, I'll go hunting for the information. Jeff P.S. Yes, I use raw formulas, but I do use Mayway patents, and although a few people have scoffed at their value, I have seen some amazing results from people using those teeny tiny bb pills. Besides, compliance is WAY easy to maintain. > " heiko " <heiko > > > Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 >Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:17:18 +1200 > >Could anyone tell me about the ingrediants of the immune disorder >combination. > > >Heiko Lade >Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist >2 Jenkins St. >Green Island, Dunedin >New Zealand >Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 >http://www.lade.com/heiko >Email: heiko > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 , " Jeff Gould " <jeffgould@h...> > It is my understanding that Subhuti Dharmananda formulates 7 Forest products > based on classical formulas modified based on results from modern research, > coupled with gentle strengths for westerners who have little experience > taking herbal formulas. As a result, I think the formulas are significantly > weaker than raw formulas, sort of like modified patents. subhuti was my first herb teacher, we worked together treating HIV and I have read everything he wrote about herbs and dosage up until about a year ago. Everyone should be aware that Subhuti recommends taking huge numbers of pills to get effective results. despite the label on his products (2-3 TID), in his writings he advises seriously ill patients to take 7 tabs TID. He also generally advises combining two formulae at these dosages, which results in ingestion of about 20-30 grams per day. He personally scoffs at the use of patents dosed on the order of 5-7 times less than this. Lanzhou patents at 8 pills TID deliver a dosage of about 4.2 grams per day. Plum flower patents,on the other hand deliver a concentrated extract dose of about 20 g per day, more in line with subhuti. Subhuti advises using bulk rx in doses upward of 150 g per day and granules in dosages of 20 grams per day or more. Finally, I have often requested but never received information documenting the OBJECTIVE success of ultra low dose patents. While we all have had patients report symptomatic relief from taking such products, I doubt anyone can prove this is not a placebo effect. Placebo effects run as high as 90% in private practice. I have NEVER seen changes in objective laboratory parameters, except when using moderate to high dose products. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that the biochemical action of herbs is based on something other than pharmacology. Not only can this position not be justified in any scientific fashion (and don't even bother to raise the issue of energy or resonance with me -- I don't buy into pseudoscience), but merely taking this position in the current scientific climate is just more fodder for those who consider us to be a bunch of uneducated quacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 --- Jeff Gould <jeffgould wrote: > ITM's 7 Forest Brand of Lithospermum 15 Just a small note about this one. For several years, I treated my daughter's Lupus with a modified form of Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suit the patient in front of me). Had great success - she went from a daily Lupus attack to *maybe* one a month. We decided to try this formula. Within five days we had a disaster on our hands. She was having several Lupus attacks, daily. I took her off the formula and went back to the one I was using. The problem went away. I do not know if the formula caused it, or if she would have had the attacks anyway. If it was the formula, I didn't try to isolate the culprit. I had NO intentions of causing a repeat of the problem. I'm not saying that the formula is bad or was the cause, just reporting what I observed. Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 on 9/14/00 10:01 AM, at wrote: > > , " Jeff Gould " <jeffgould@h...> >> It is my understanding that Subhuti Dharmananda formulates 7 Forest > products >> based on classical formulas modified based on results from modern > research, >> coupled with gentle strengths for westerners who have little > experience >> taking herbal formulas. As a result, I think the formulas are > significantly >> weaker than raw formulas, sort of like modified patents. > > subhuti was my first herb teacher, we worked together treating HIV > and > I have read everything he wrote about herbs and dosage up until about > a > year ago. Everyone should be aware that Subhuti recommends taking > huge > numbers of pills to get effective results. despite the label on his > products (2-3 TID), in his writings he advises seriously ill patients > to take 7 tabs TID. He also generally advises combining two formulae > at > these dosages, which results in ingestion of about 20-30 grams per > day. > He personally scoffs at the use of patents dosed on the order of 5-7 > times less than this. Lanzhou patents at 8 pills TID deliver a > dosage > of about 4.2 grams per day. Plum flower patents,on the other hand > deliver a concentrated extract dose of about 20 g per day, more in > line > with subhuti. Subhuti advises using bulk rx in doses upward of 150 g > per day and granules in dosages of 20 grams per day or more. > > Finally, I have often requested but never received information > documenting the OBJECTIVE success of ultra low dose patents. While > we > all have had patients report symptomatic relief from taking such > products, I doubt anyone can prove this is not a placebo effect. > Placebo effects run as high as 90% in private practice. I have NEVER > seen changes in objective laboratory parameters, except when using > moderate to high dose products. To suggest otherwise is to suggest > that the biochemical action of herbs is based on something other than > pharmacology. Not only can this position not be justified in any > scientific fashion (and don't even bother to raise the issue of > energy > or resonance with me -- I don't buy into pseudoscience), but merely > taking this position in the current scientific climate is just more > fodder for those who consider us to be a bunch of uneducated quacks. > > > I don't know, Todd. . . . .. First of all, the craftsmanship of a prescription, and matching it to a pattern, is the hallmark of bian zheng lun zhi, pattern differentiation and treatment. Subhuti's formulas have many ingredients, some of them very strong, and I would be cautious about using them in large dosages, or combining two prescriptions together. Also, on the issue of placebo effect and resonance.. . ..I have seen children, and occasionally adult patients respond to relatively small doses of Chinese medicinals. While I agree that, in most cases, larger herbal dosages may be necessary, I don't think it is just placebo effect at work. Resonance, or gan ying, to me means that the formula is combined in such a way and prescribed in such a way to resonate with and resolve a pattern of disharmony. Sometimes this will happen at lower dosages, sometimes higher are necessary, depending on the situation and the intractibility of the situation. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 on 9/14/00 10:21 AM, zooky at z00ky wrote: > > > --- Jeff Gould <jeffgould wrote: > >> ITM's 7 Forest Brand of Lithospermum 15 > > Just a small note about this one. For several years, I treated my daughter's > Lupus with a modified form of Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suit > the patient in front of me). Had great success - she went from a daily Lupus > attack to *maybe* one a month. We decided to try this formula. > > Within five days we had a disaster on our hands. She was having several > Lupus attacks, daily. I took her off the formula and went back to the one I > was using. The problem went away. > > I do not know if the formula caused it, or if she would have had the attacks > anyway. If it was the formula, I didn't try to isolate the culprit. I had > NO intentions of causing a repeat of the problem. > > I'm not saying that the formula is bad or was the cause, just reporting what > I observed. > > > > > Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > / > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Whether it was the formula or not, cannot be accurately determined. I would like to say, that with intractable, chronic complex disorders, using attack methods with strong medicinals will often be counterproductive, aggravating the disease rather than alleviating symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Jeff, As I understand you, you use this formula like pills for smoking cessation. And what is your formulation of aromatherapy, what are the herbs, and how do you use them, make a cigar like moxa stick? Do you use at the same time auricula acupuncture? Yuri Jeff Gould jeffgould Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:01:39 GMT Re: Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 Heiko, ITM's 7 Forest Brand of Lithospermum 15 has the following ingredients: zicao lithospermum 9% danshen salvia 9% huangqi astragalus 8% tufuling smilax 7% chishao red peony 7% roucongrong cistanche 7% shudihuang rehmannia 7% nuzhenzi ligustrum 6% yinyanghuo epimedium 6% dangshen codonopsis 6% qinghao artemesia qinghao 6% zhimu anemarrhena 6% gouqizi lycium fruit 6% danggui dongquai 5% gancao licorice 5% It is my understanding that Subhuti Dharmananda formulates 7 Forest products based on classical formulas modified based on results from modern research, coupled with gentle strengths for westerners who have little experience taking herbal formulas. As a result, I think the formulas are significantly weaker than raw formulas, sort of like modified patents. I am currently using this formula for several patients with different immune disorders, including a 13 year old girl with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, a 47 year old man with rheumatoid arthritis, and a woman whose age I cannot remember with lupus. (I received a spate of about 6 people with immune disorders in about 2 week). However, none of them has been on the formula long enough for me to be able to note changes and in these cases, I anticipate the changes will be slow and subtle initially. There's one other 7 Forest formula I use REGULARLY, and that's Ardisia 16. It was formulated originally based on a formula to get people off of narcotics addiction. I use it for smoking cessation, but have also used it successfully to treat a retired dentist who had been addicted to valium/diazepam for about 26 years. I generally won't try to perform smoking cessation without also requiring a patient to take this formula and using an aromatherapy formulation made up of Chinese herbs that is breathed in 3-4 times a day and when the patient feels craving. I think it's called Smokers Aromatherapy. If anyone's interested, I'll go hunting for the information. Jeff P.S. Yes, I use raw formulas, but I do use Mayway patents, and although a few people have scoffed at their value, I have seen some amazing results from people using those teeny tiny bb pills. Besides, compliance is WAY easy to maintain. > " heiko " <heiko > > > Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 >Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:17:18 +1200 > >Could anyone tell me about the ingrediants of the immune disorder >combination. > > >Heiko Lade >Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist >2 Jenkins St. >Green Island, Dunedin >New Zealand >Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 >http://www.lade.com/heiko >Email: heiko > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. _________________________ Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Hello Jeff, I am interested in the Smokers Aromatherapy. Thanks for the information. I also get good results with patents. Currently I use Nuherbs Jade Dragon brand. Sherril Gold, AP sherrilgol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Placebo effects run as high as 90% in private practice. I have NEVER seen changes in objective laboratory parameters, except when using >>>and that is probably the difference between different manufactures alon - Thursday, September 14, 2000 10:01 AM Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 , "Jeff Gould" <jeffgould@h...> > It is my understanding that Subhuti Dharmananda formulates 7 Forestproducts > based on classical formulas modified based on results from modernresearch, > coupled with gentle strengths for westerners who have littleexperience > taking herbal formulas. As a result, I think the formulas aresignificantly > weaker than raw formulas, sort of like modified patents.subhuti was my first herb teacher, we worked together treating HIVand I have read everything he wrote about herbs and dosage up until abouta year ago. Everyone should be aware that Subhuti recommends takinghuge numbers of pills to get effective results. despite the label on his products (2-3 TID), in his writings he advises seriously ill patients to take 7 tabs TID. He also generally advises combining two formulaeat these dosages, which results in ingestion of about 20-30 grams perday. He personally scoffs at the use of patents dosed on the order of 5-7 times less than this. Lanzhou patents at 8 pills TID deliver adosage of about 4.2 grams per day. Plum flower patents,on the other hand deliver a concentrated extract dose of about 20 g per day, more inline with subhuti. Subhuti advises using bulk rx in doses upward of 150 g per day and granules in dosages of 20 grams per day or more. Finally, I have often requested but never received information documenting the OBJECTIVE success of ultra low dose patents. Whilewe all have had patients report symptomatic relief from taking such products, I doubt anyone can prove this is not a placebo effect. Placebo effects run as high as 90% in private practice. I have NEVER seen changes in objective laboratory parameters, except when using moderate to high dose products. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that the biochemical action of herbs is based on something other than pharmacology. Not only can this position not be justified in any scientific fashion (and don't even bother to raise the issue ofenergy or resonance with me -- I don't buy into pseudoscience), but merely taking this position in the current scientific climate is just more fodder for those who consider us to be a bunch of uneducated quacks.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suitthe patient in front of me). >>>what's in it alon - zooky Thursday, September 14, 2000 10:21 AM Re: Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 --- Jeff Gould <jeffgould wrote:> ITM's 7 Forest Brand of Lithospermum 15 Just a small note about this one. For several years, I treated my daughter'sLupus with a modified form of Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suitthe patient in front of me). Had great success - she went from a daily Lupusattack to *maybe* one a month. We decided to try this formula.Within five days we had a disaster on our hands. She was having severalLupus attacks, daily. I took her off the formula and went back to the one Iwas using. The problem went away.I do not know if the formula caused it, or if she would have had the attacksanyway. If it was the formula, I didn't try to isolate the culprit. I hadNO intentions of causing a repeat of the problem.I'm not saying that the formula is bad or was the cause, just reporting whatI observed. Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!/The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2000 Report Share Posted September 14, 2000 I am just curious where this 90% comes from? Seems slightly inflated... - Placebo effects run as high as 90% in private practice. I have NEVER seen changes in objective laboratory parameters, except when using >>>and that is probably the difference between different manufactures alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2000 Report Share Posted September 15, 2000 --- alonmarcus wrote: > Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suit > the patient in front of me). > >>>what's in it Well, his base formula is simply based on Rehmannia 6, I made modifications to better suit the needs of my daughter. His formula contains: Ingredients: Rehmannia Root,Lycii Fruit, Cornus Fruit, Poria Cocos Sclerotium, Tree Peony Root Bark, Dioscorea Root, Alisma Rhizome, He Shou Wu Root, Chrysanthemum Flower, Ligustrum Seed and Saw Palmetto Berry Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2000 Report Share Posted September 15, 2000 thanks - zooky Friday, September 15, 2000 7:41 AM Re: Re:ITM /lithosperm 15 --- alonmarcus wrote:> Dr. Tierra's Yin formula (I modified it to suit> the patient in front of me). > >>>what's in itWell, his base formula is simply based on Rehmannia 6, I made modificationsto better suit the needs of my daughter. His formula contains:Ingredients: Rehmannia Root,Lycii Fruit, Cornus Fruit, Poria CocosSclerotium, Tree Peony Root Bark, Dioscorea Root, Alisma Rhizome, He Shou WuRoot, Chrysanthemum Flower, Ligustrum Seed and Saw Palmetto Berry Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!/The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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