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Andrew,

 

Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the law

but it is always excusable in the process of education.

In fact, it is a primary prerequisite to education and

therefore intelligence.

 

I would say that there is no need for you to ask to be

excused for being ignorant of the difference between modern

medical Chinese and the language of the classics, but your question

seems to fill a very real need...for me at least.

 

I've been trying to follow the recent thread on...well, I really

can't put my finger on the subject of the thread, and suddenly

your question appeared and seemed to point the way towards

something that I've wanted to say.

 

And it all has to do with education and intelligence.

 

I'll start by responding to your question.

 

Modern medical Chinese is as different from classical

Chinese as modern medical English is from Old English.

 

I only mean that in terms of an order of magnitude

comparison. I am not making points about linguistics,

per se. The textbooks that Chinese students of Chinese

medicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing, include

the ancient text, translations into modern Chinese, and

extensive interpretations and exegesis of the material.

 

Students in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in fact

at the lower level trade schools and secondary schools that

specialize in TCM education as well) study courses in

ancient Chinese medical language and texts. Typically

this course is one semester long, although there are

those students who specialize in the medical classics

and go on to devote many years to the study. There is

a PhD program in Chinese medical classics at Chengdu

University of TCM, for example.

 

Students in the Chinese schools acquire the modern

vocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year long

education leading to basic certification, as they

follow courses in basic theory, diagnosis, acupuncture,

tui na, herbal medicine, pharmacology, and so on,

learning the nomenclature of these subjects in due

course.

 

The point is that without special training or translations

into modern Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese

medicine cannot access and thus acquire the data contained

in the medical classics. Recognizing the vital importance of these data, those

who design currciula in the Chinese schools always

include this course in ancient Chinese medical language,

Yi Gu Wen.

 

This leads me to the more general issue of education

and intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in earlier posts

that we who study, teach, practice, and research Chinese

medicine in the West do so at a tremendous disadvantage

if we do not acquire the skills necessary for studying

in the Chinese language. I'm well aware of the range of

opinions and resulting debate about whether or not this

really matters. But I have yet to come in contact with

any expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine from

any part of the world that does not acknowledge its debt

to the Chinese traditions of the past whence the subject

emerged.

 

The very simple truth is that if one is interested in

knowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is all

about, one had better look in the medical classics where

the subject has been chronicled and archived for more than

2,000 years.

 

This is the public record of the subject. It forms an integral

part of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity,

efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and

practice of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the

limits of such claims, but they do represent the basis.

 

There is, of course, a deep and strong oral transmission,

rather a whole dimension of the oral traditions of medicine

in Chinese history. So that the literary traditions are

not the only fundamental repository of Chinese medical

intelligence. But they are indispensable.

 

Unfortunately for students who do not read and understand Chinese,

and this means the classical Chinese in which these medical

classics were written, this knowledge is beyond reach.

 

The work to translate this body of knowledge into English proceeds,

but it proceeds slowly. The work of learning to read and understand

classical medical Chinese is taken up by a growing number of individuals, but

this is a slow process as well.

 

There will be no quick solution to the real situation here.

 

Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of intellectual

and ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is perhaps

best described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, by

Stevie Wonder. " When you believe in things that you don't

understand, then you suffer. "

 

In the Dao De Jing, it says, " To know, yet appear not to, is

best. To not know yet appear to is illness. "

 

It seems to me that the path of medicine, be it traditionally

Chinese or modernly Western, has as one of its most basic

and stringent requirements that those who follow it be

possessed of the intellectual courage and insight to know

the difference between knowing something and not knowing it.

 

The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before they

get ill. And the oldest medical wisdom reminds us, Physician,

heal thyself.

 

If we cannot comply with these most fundamental requirements,

what meaning do the advanced refinements have?

 

The demands of daily life include that we administer

aid to those who need it, but this is no reason to

avoid or tolerate remaining ignorant of the basic

issues that form our character as a profession and

the substance of our practice.

 

It is simply a long, hard job. If the thorough

study and updating of the medical literature

were not vital to the processes of Chinese

medical education and practice, why have the

Chinese been doing so for 2,000 years?

 

Is there really anyone on this list who could

defend a position which states in essence that

patients of American (or other non-Chinese)

practitioners of Chinese medicine do not deserve

to be treated by individuals who are as well

educated as their Chinese counterparts?

 

On what basis do people who do not read

and understand Chinese medical classics

go about deciding what to use from this

tradition and what to discard?

 

 

Just a few questions that recent discussions

on the list have jogged to mind.

 

Ken Rose

 

 

 

 

 

 

> One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in the

West,

> is that there is a vast body of case history literature in Chinese, both

> modern and classical, which has not yet been translated. I think this

> would clarify a lot of the issues that are being discussed here.

>

>

 

is this situation being rectified now? is there much diffeence between

modern medical chinese and that of the classical writings? [excuse

ignorance].

 

Andrew

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

 

 

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Share on other sites

This is the public record of the subject. It forms an integralpart of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity, efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and practice of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the limits of such claims, but they do represent the basis

 

 

>>>>>>>And that is were the beauty of the scientific method comes on. I do not care what you say you know or care where you found it or which interpretation you agree with. All I have to do is look objectively at your outcome

thank you very much. If you know of a great place to go in China please let me know. From what I have seen in a large TCM hospital with some famously classically trained DR I am still not as impressed as many seem to be. TCM is great has a lot to offer. We have tones to learn. And this is probably true in China as well. But we need to look at the average clinic of modernly trained TCM Dr and OBJECTIVELY evauate outcomes. That is were religion end and science begins.

alon

 

-

yulong

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00 PM

Re: Re: re: literature

 

Andrew,Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the lawbut it is always excusable in the process of education.In fact, it is a primary prerequisite to education andtherefore intelligence.I would say that there is no need for you to ask to beexcused for being ignorant of the difference between modernmedical Chinese and the language of the classics, but your questionseems to fill a very real need...for me at least.I've been trying to follow the recent thread on...well, I reallycan't put my finger on the subject of the thread, and suddenlyyour question appeared and seemed to point the way towardssomething that I've wanted to say.And it all has to do with education and intelligence.I'll start by responding to your question.Modern medical Chinese is as different from classicalChinese as modern medical English is from Old English.I only mean that in terms of an order of magnitudecomparison. I am not making points about linguistics, per se. The textbooks that Chinese students of Chinesemedicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing, includethe ancient text, translations into modern Chinese, andextensive interpretations and exegesis of the material.Students in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in factat the lower level trade schools and secondary schools thatspecialize in TCM education as well) study courses inancient Chinese medical language and texts. Typicallythis course is one semester long, although there arethose students who specialize in the medical classicsand go on to devote many years to the study. There isa PhD program in Chinese medical classics at ChengduUniversity of TCM, for example.Students in the Chinese schools acquire the modernvocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year longeducation leading to basic certification, as theyfollow courses in basic theory, diagnosis, acupuncture,tui na, herbal medicine, pharmacology, and so on, learning the nomenclature of these subjects in duecourse.The point is that without special training or translationsinto modern Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese medicine cannot access and thus acquire the data contained in the medical classics. Recognizing the vital importance of these data, those who design currciula in the Chinese schools alwaysinclude this course in ancient Chinese medical language,Yi Gu Wen.This leads me to the more general issue of educationand intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in earlier poststhat we who study, teach, practice, and research Chinesemedicine in the West do so at a tremendous disadvantageif we do not acquire the skills necessary for studyingin the Chinese language. I'm well aware of the range ofopinions and resulting debate about whether or not thisreally matters. But I have yet to come in contact withany expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine fromany part of the world that does not acknowledge its debtto the Chinese traditions of the past whence the subjectemerged.The very simple truth is that if one is interested inknowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is allabout, one had better look in the medical classics wherethe subject has been chronicled and archived for more than2,000 years. This is the public record of the subject. It forms an integralpart of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity, efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and practice of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the limits of such claims, but they do represent the basis.There is, of course, a deep and strong oral transmission,rather a whole dimension of the oral traditions of medicinein Chinese history. So that the literary traditions arenot the only fundamental repository of Chinese medicalintelligence. But they are indispensable.Unfortunately for students who do not read and understand Chinese, and this means the classical Chinese in which these medical classics were written, this knowledge is beyond reach.The work to translate this body of knowledge into English proceeds,but it proceeds slowly. The work of learning to read and understandclassical medical Chinese is taken up by a growing number of individuals, but this is a slow process as well.There will be no quick solution to the real situation here.Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of intellectualand ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is perhapsbest described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, byStevie Wonder. "When you believe in things that you don'tunderstand, then you suffer."In the Dao De Jing, it says, "To know, yet appear not to, isbest. To not know yet appear to is illness."It seems to me that the path of medicine, be it traditionallyChinese or modernly Western, has as one of its most basicand stringent requirements that those who follow it bepossessed of the intellectual courage and insight to knowthe difference between knowing something and not knowing it.The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before theyget ill. And the oldest medical wisdom reminds us, Physician,heal thyself.If we cannot comply with these most fundamental requirements,what meaning do the advanced refinements have?The demands of daily life include that we administeraid to those who need it, but this is no reason toavoid or tolerate remaining ignorant of the basicissues that form our character as a profession andthe substance of our practice.It is simply a long, hard job. If the thoroughstudy and updating of the medical literaturewere not vital to the processes of Chinesemedical education and practice, why have theChinese been doing so for 2,000 years?Is there really anyone on this list who coulddefend a position which states in essence thatpatients of American (or other non-Chinese)practitioners of Chinese medicine do not deserveto be treated by individuals who are as welleducated as their Chinese counterparts?On what basis do people who do not readand understand Chinese medical classicsgo about deciding what to use from thistradition and what to discard?Just a few questions that recent discussionson the list have jogged to mind.Ken Rose> One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in theWest,> is that there is a vast body of case history literature in Chinese, both> modern and classical, which has not yet been translated. I think this> would clarify a lot of the issues that are being discussed here.>> is this situation being rectified now? is there much diffeence betweenmodern medical chinese and that of the classical writings? [excuseignorance].AndrewChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.http://www..orgThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Original Message -----

yulong

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00 PM

Re: Re: re: literature

 

Andrew,Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the lawbut it is always excusable in the process of education.In fact, it is a primary prerequisite to education andtherefore intelligence.I would say that there is no need for you to ask to beexcused for being ignorant of the difference between modernmedical Chinese and the language of the classics, but your questionseems to fill a very real need...for me at least.I've been trying to follow the recent thread on...well, I reallycan't put my finger on the subject of the thread, and suddenlyyour question appeared and seemed to point the way towardssomething that I've wanted to say.And it all has to do with education and intelligence.I'll start by responding to your question.Modern medical Chinese is as different from classicalChinese as modern medical English is from Old English.I only mean that in terms of an order of magnitudecomparison. I am not making points about linguistics, per se. The textbooks that Chinese students of Chinesemedicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing, includethe ancient text, translations into modern Chinese, andextensive interpretations and exegesis of the material.Students in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in factat the lower level trade schools and secondary schools thatspecialize in TCM education as well) study courses inancient Chinese medical language and texts. Typicallythis course is one semester long, although there arethose students who specialize in the medical classicsand go on to devote many years to the study. There isa PhD program in Chinese medical classics at ChengduUniversity of TCM, for example.Students in the Chinese schools acquire the modernvocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year longeducation leading to basic certification, as theyfollow courses in basic theory, diagnosis, acupuncture,tui na, herbal medicine, pharmacology, and so on, learning the nomenclature of these subjects in duecourse.The point is that without special training or translationsinto modern Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese medicine cannot access and thus acquire the data contained in the medical classics. Recognizing the vital importance of these data, those who design currciula in the Chinese schools alwaysinclude this course in ancient Chinese medical language,Yi Gu Wen.This leads me to the more general issue of educationand intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in earlier poststhat we who study, teach, practice, and research Chinesemedicine in the West do so at a tremendous disadvantageif we do not acquire the skills necessary for studyingin the Chinese language. I'm well aware of the range ofopinions and resulting debate about whether or not thisreally matters. But I have yet to come in contact withany expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine fromany part of the world that does not acknowledge its debtto the Chinese traditions of the past whence the subjectemerged.The very simple truth is that if one is interested inknowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is allabout, one had better look in the medical classics wherethe subject has been chronicled and archived for more than2,000 years. This is the public record of the subject. It forms an integralpart of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity, efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and practice of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the limits of such claims, but they do represent the basis.There is, of course, a deep and strong oral transmission,rather a whole dimension of the oral traditions of medicinein Chinese history. So that the literary traditions arenot the only fundamental repository of Chinese medicalintelligence. But they are indispensable.Unfortunately for students who do not read and understand Chinese, and this means the classical Chinese in which these medical classics were written, this knowledge is beyond reach.The work to translate this body of knowledge into English proceeds,but it proceeds slowly. The work of learning to read and understandclassical medical Chinese is taken up by a growing number of individuals, but this is a slow process as well.There will be no quick solution to the real situation here.Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of intellectualand ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is perhapsbest described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, byStevie Wonder. "When you believe in things that you don'tunderstand, then you suffer."In the Dao De Jing, it says, "To know, yet appear not to, isbest. To not know yet appear to is illness."It seems to me that the path of medicine, be it traditionallyChinese or modernly Western, has as one of its most basicand stringent requirements that those who follow it bepossessed of the intellectual courage and insight to knowthe difference between knowing something and not knowing it.The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before theyget ill. And the oldest medical wisdom reminds us, Physician,heal thyself.If we cannot comply with these most fundamental requirements,what meaning do the advanced refinements have?The demands of daily life include that we administeraid to those who need it, but this is no reason toavoid or tolerate remaining ignorant of the basicissues that form our character as a profession andthe substance of our practice.It is simply a long, hard job. If the thoroughstudy and updating of the medical literaturewere not vital to the processes of Chinesemedical education and practice, why have theChinese been doing so for 2,000 years?Is there really anyone on this list who coulddefend a position which states in essence thatpatients of American (or other non-Chinese)practitioners of Chinese medicine do not deserveto be treated by individuals who are as welleducated as their Chinese counterparts?On what basis do people who do not readand understand Chinese medical classicsgo about deciding what to use from thistradition and what to discard?Just a few questions that recent discussionson the list have jogged to mind.Ken Rose> One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in theWest,> is that there is a vast body of case history literature in Chinese, both> modern and classical, which has not yet been translated. I think this> would clarify a lot of the issues that are being discussed here.>> is this situation being rectified now? is there much diffeence betweenmodern medical chinese and that of the classical writings? [excuseignorance].AndrewChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.http://www..orgThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

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Alon,

 

I continue to be somewhat mystified by this

thread. It seems as if there's an argument

of some sort taking place, but I'll be darned

if I can figure out exactly who is arguing

what.

 

I certainly do not disagree with the notion

that we need to see the emergence of sound

clinical trials in adequate quantities to

satisfy the needs of medical researchers,

doctors, insurance companies, regulators,

policy makers, and the general public.

 

I don't recall what your experience in China

has been, if you've mentioned it before.

All I can say is that it's too bad that you

weren't impressed. I've always been impressed

with the operation of clinics in the hospital

attached to the TCM university in Chengdu and

never hesitate to recommend it as a worthwhile

place to go for people who want to experience Chinese

medicine functioning at high volume. Sure

they have weaknesses and areas that need to

be improved upon. China is a Third World country

with a population of some 900 million peasants.

There's an awful lot of sick and injured people

and pitifully little money to go around.

But the throughput of patients is enormous in

the clinics that I'm familiar with and the quality

of care is very good overall.

 

But one really big difference in China is that

people who study and practice Chinese medicine

are able to read the literature and can thus

rely upon their own evaluation of source materials

to develop understanding and skill.

 

If you weren't impressed with what you saw in

China, where did you develop the idea that

TCM is great?

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

>>>>>>>And that is were the beauty of

the scientific method comes on. I do not care what you say you know or care

where you found it or which interpretation you agree with. All I have to do is

look objectively at your outcome

thank you very much. If you know of a great

place to go in China please let me know. From what I have seen in a large TCM

hospital with some famously classically trained DR I am still not as impressed

as many seem to be. TCM is great has a lot to

offer. We have tones to learn. And this is probably true in China as well. But

we need to look at the average clinic of modernly trained TCM Dr and

OBJECTIVELY evauate outcomes. That is were religion end and science

begins.

alon

 

-

<A TARGET= " Link " title=yulong

href= " yulong " >yulong</A>

<A TARGET= " Link "

title=

href= " " > </A>

 

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00

PM

Re: Re:

re: literature

 

>

>

<P>Andrew,

>

> Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the

law

> but it is always excusable in the process of education.

> In fact,

it is a primary prerequisite to education and

> therefore

intelligence.

>

> I would say that there is no need for you to ask to

be

> excused for being ignorant of the difference between modern

> medical

Chinese and the language of the classics, but your question

> seems to fill

a very real need...for me at least.

>

> I've been trying to follow the

recent thread on...well, I really

> can't put my finger on the subject of

the thread, and suddenly

> your question appeared and seemed to point the

way towards

> something that I've wanted to say.

>

> And it all has to

do with education and intelligence.

>

> I'll start by responding to your

question.

>

> Modern medical Chinese is as different from

classical

> Chinese as modern medical English is from Old English.

>

> I

only mean that in terms of an order of magnitude

> comparison. I am not

making points about linguistics,

> per se. The textbooks that Chinese

students of Chinese

> medicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing,

include

> the ancient text, translations into modern Chinese,

and

> extensive interpretations and exegesis of the

material.

>

> Students in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in

fact

> at the lower level trade schools and secondary schools

that

> specialize in TCM education as well) study courses in

> ancient

Chinese medical language and texts. Typically

> this course is one semester

long, although there are

> those students who specialize in the medical

classics

> and go on to devote many years to the study. There is

> a PhD

program in Chinese medical classics at Chengdu

> University of TCM, for

example.

>

> Students in the Chinese schools acquire the

modern

> vocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year long

> education

leading to basic certification, as they

> follow courses in basic theory,

diagnosis, acupuncture,

> tui na, herbal medicine, pharmacology, and so on,

 

> learning the nomenclature of these subjects in due

> course.

>

> The

point is that without special training or translations

> into modern

Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese

> medicine cannot access and

thus acquire the data contained

> in the medical classics. Recognizing the

vital importance of these data, those who design currciula in the Chinese

schools always

> include this course in ancient Chinese medical

language,

> Yi Gu Wen.

>

> This leads me to the more general issue of

education

> and intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in earlier posts

> that

we who study, teach, practice, and research Chinese

> medicine in the West

do so at a tremendous disadvantage

> if we do not acquire the skills

necessary for studying

> in the Chinese language. I'm well aware of the

range of

> opinions and resulting debate about whether or not

this

> really matters. But I have yet to come in contact with

> any

expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine from

> any part of the

world that does not acknowledge its debt

> to the Chinese traditions of the

past whence the subject

> emerged.

>

> The very simple truth is that if

one is interested in

> knowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is

all

> about, one had better look in the medical classics where

> the

subject has been chronicled and archived for more than

> 2,000 years.

 

>

> This is the public record of the subject. It forms an

integral

> part of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity,

 

> efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and

> practice

of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the limits of

such claims, but they do represent the basis.

>

> There is, of course, a

deep and strong oral transmission,

> rather a whole dimension of the oral

traditions of medicine

> in Chinese history. So that the literary

traditions are

> not the only fundamental repository of Chinese

medical

> intelligence. But they are indispensable.

>

> Unfortunately

for students who do not read and understand Chinese,

> and this means the

classical Chinese in which these medical

> classics were written, this

knowledge is beyond reach.

>

> The work to translate this body of

knowledge into English proceeds,

> but it proceeds slowly. The work of

learning to read and understand

> classical medical Chinese is taken up by

a growing number of individuals, but this is a slow process as

well.

>

> There will be no quick solution to the real situation

here.

>

> Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of

intellectual

> and ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is

perhaps

> best described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, by

> Stevie

Wonder. " When you believe in things that you don't

> understand, then you

suffer. "

>

> In the Dao De Jing, it says, " To know, yet appear not to,

is

> best. To not know yet appear to is illness. "

>

> It seems to me

that the path of medicine, be it traditionally

> Chinese or modernly

Western, has as one of its most basic

> and stringent requirements that

those who follow it be

> possessed of the intellectual courage and insight

to know

> the difference between knowing something and not knowing

it.

>

> The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before they

> get

ill. And the oldest medical wisdom reminds us, Physician,

> heal

thyself.

>

> If we cannot comply with these most fundamental

requirements,

> what meaning do the advanced refinements have?

>

> The

demands of daily life include that we administer

> aid to those who need

it, but this is no reason to

> avoid or tolerate remaining ignorant of the

basic

> issues that form our character as a profession and

> the substance

of our practice.

>

> It is simply a long, hard job. If the

thorough

> study and updating of the medical literature

> were not vital

to the processes of Chinese

> medical education and practice, why have

the

> Chinese been doing so for 2,000 years?

>

> Is there really anyone

on this list who could

> defend a position which states in essence

that

> patients of American (or other non-Chinese)

> practitioners of

Chinese medicine do not deserve

> to be treated by individuals who are as

well

> educated as their Chinese counterparts?

>

> On what basis do

people who do not read

> and understand Chinese medical classics

> go

about deciding what to use from this

> tradition and what to

discard?

>

>

> Just a few questions that recent discussions

> on the

list have jogged to mind.

>

> Ken Rose

>

One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in

the

> West,

> > is that there is a vast body of case history literature

in Chinese, both

> > modern and classical, which has not yet been

translated.   I think this

> > would clarify a lot of the

issues that are being discussed here.

> >

> > Z'ev

Rosenberg

>

> is this situation being rectified now? is there much

diffeence between

> modern medical chinese and that of the classical

writings? [excuse

> ignorance].

>

> Andrew

>

>

> The Chinese Herb

Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners,

matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese

Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</A>

>

>

>

> The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</A>

 

> Original Message -----

<A TARGET= " Link " title=yulong

href= " yulong " >yulong</A>

<A TARGET= " Link "

title=

href= " " > </A>

 

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00

PM

Re: Re: re:

literature

 

>

>

<P>Andrew,

>

> Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the

law

> but it is always excusable in the process of education.

> In fact, it

is a primary prerequisite to education and

> therefore intelligence.

>

> I

would say that there is no need for you to ask to be

> excused for being

ignorant of the difference between modern

> medical Chinese and the language

of the classics, but your question

> seems to fill a very real need...for me

at least.

>

> I've been trying to follow the recent thread on...well, I

really

> can't put my finger on the subject of the thread, and

suddenly

> your question appeared and seemed to point the way

towards

> something that I've wanted to say.

>

> And it all has to do with

education and intelligence.

>

> I'll start by responding to your

question.

>

> Modern medical Chinese is as different from

classical

> Chinese as modern medical English is from Old English.

>

> I

only mean that in terms of an order of magnitude

> comparison. I am not

making points about linguistics,

> per se. The textbooks that Chinese

students of Chinese

> medicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing,

include

> the ancient text, translations into modern Chinese,

and

> extensive interpretations and exegesis of the material.

>

> Students

in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in fact

> at the lower level

trade schools and secondary schools that

> specialize in TCM education as

well) study courses in

> ancient Chinese medical language and texts.

Typically

> this course is one semester long, although there are

> those

students who specialize in the medical classics

> and go on to devote many

years to the study. There is

> a PhD program in Chinese medical classics at

Chengdu

> University of TCM, for example.

>

> Students in the Chinese

schools acquire the modern

> vocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year

long

> education leading to basic certification, as they

> follow courses in

basic theory, diagnosis, acupuncture,

> tui na, herbal medicine,

pharmacology, and so on,

> learning the nomenclature of these subjects in

due

> course.

>

> The point is that without special training or

translations

> into modern Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese

 

> medicine cannot access and thus acquire the data contained

> in the

medical classics. Recognizing the vital importance of these data, those who

design currciula in the Chinese schools always

> include this course in

ancient Chinese medical language,

> Yi Gu Wen.

>

> This leads me to the

more general issue of education

> and intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in

earlier posts

> that we who study, teach, practice, and research

Chinese

> medicine in the West do so at a tremendous disadvantage

> if we do

not acquire the skills necessary for studying

> in the Chinese language. I'm

well aware of the range of

> opinions and resulting debate about whether or

not this

> really matters. But I have yet to come in contact with

> any

expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine from

> any part of the world

that does not acknowledge its debt

> to the Chinese traditions of the past

whence the subject

> emerged.

>

> The very simple truth is that if one is

interested in

> knowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is

all

> about, one had better look in the medical classics where

> the subject

has been chronicled and archived for more than

> 2,000 years.

>

> This is

the public record of the subject. It forms an integral

> part of the basis of

all claims of authenticity, validity,

> efficacy, etc. that are made with

respect to the study and

> practice of Chinese medicine. The medical

classics by no means describe the limits of such claims, but they do represent

the basis.

>

> There is, of course, a deep and strong oral

transmission,

> rather a whole dimension of the oral traditions of

medicine

> in Chinese history. So that the literary traditions are

> not the

only fundamental repository of Chinese medical

> intelligence. But they are

indispensable.

>

> Unfortunately for students who do not read and

understand Chinese,

> and this means the classical Chinese in which these

medical

> classics were written, this knowledge is beyond reach.

>

> The

work to translate this body of knowledge into English proceeds,

> but it

proceeds slowly. The work of learning to read and understand

> classical

medical Chinese is taken up by a growing number of individuals, but this is a

slow process as well.

>

> There will be no quick solution to the real

situation here.

>

> Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of

intellectual

> and ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is

perhaps

> best described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, by

> Stevie

Wonder. " When you believe in things that you don't

> understand, then you

suffer. "

>

> In the Dao De Jing, it says, " To know, yet appear not to,

is

> best. To not know yet appear to is illness. "

>

> It seems to me that

the path of medicine, be it traditionally

> Chinese or modernly Western, has

as one of its most basic

> and stringent requirements that those who follow

it be

> possessed of the intellectual courage and insight to know

> the

difference between knowing something and not knowing it.

>

> The Nei Jing

advises that we treat patients before they

> get ill. And the oldest medical

wisdom reminds us, Physician,

> heal thyself.

>

> If we cannot comply with

these most fundamental requirements,

> what meaning do the advanced

refinements have?

>

> The demands of daily life include that we

administer

> aid to those who need it, but this is no reason to

> avoid or

tolerate remaining ignorant of the basic

> issues that form our character as

a profession and

> the substance of our practice.

>

> It is simply a long,

hard job. If the thorough

> study and updating of the medical

literature

> were not vital to the processes of Chinese

> medical education

and practice, why have the

> Chinese been doing so for 2,000 years?

>

> Is

there really anyone on this list who could

> defend a position which states

in essence that

> patients of American (or other

non-Chinese)

> practitioners of Chinese medicine do not deserve

> to be

treated by individuals who are as well

> educated as their Chinese

counterparts?

>

> On what basis do people who do not read

> and understand

Chinese medical classics

> go about deciding what to use from

this

> tradition and what to discard?

>

>

> Just a few questions that

recent discussions

> on the list have jogged to mind.

>

> Ken

Rose

> One of the serious gaps we have, in

our clinical practice in the

> West,

> > is that there is a vast body of

case history literature in Chinese, both

> > modern and classical, which

has not yet been translated.   I think this

> > would clarify a

lot of the issues that are being discussed here.

> >

> > Z'ev

Rosenberg

>

> is this situation being rectified now? is there much

diffeence between

> modern medical chinese and that of the classical

writings? [excuse

> ignorance].

>

> Andrew

>

>

> The Chinese Herb

Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners,

matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese

Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board

approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</A>

>

>

>

> The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</A>

 

>

>

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

<A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</A>

>

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Share on other sites

> One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in the

West,

> is that there is a vast body of case history literature in Chinese, both

> modern and classical, which has not yet been translated. I think this

> would clarify a lot of the issues that are being discussed here.

>

>

 

is this situation being rectified now? is there much diffeence between

modern medical chinese and that of the classical writings? [excuse

ignorance].

 

Andrew

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Share on other sites

If you weren't impressed with what you saw in

China, where did you develop the idea that

TCM is great?

>>>There is great things within the medicine as well as a lot of boll in my

opinion. I am not saying all I saw was negative. But for me it is always a

game of numbers and when I looked backward at the hundreds of cases I

followed it was generally disappointing. I like many of the tools in OM and

adapted them in my practice. Nothing is black and white

alon

-

<yulong

 

Sunday, September 17, 2000 10:37 PM

Re: Re: Re: re: literature

 

 

 

Alon,

 

I continue to be somewhat mystified by this

thread. It seems as if there's an argument

of some sort taking place, but I'll be darned

if I can figure out exactly who is arguing

what.

 

I certainly do not disagree with the notion

that we need to see the emergence of sound

clinical trials in adequate quantities to

satisfy the needs of medical researchers,

doctors, insurance companies, regulators,

policy makers, and the general public.

 

I don't recall what your experience in China

has been, if you've mentioned it before.

All I can say is that it's too bad that you

weren't impressed. I've always been impressed

with the operation of clinics in the hospital

attached to the TCM university in Chengdu and

never hesitate to recommend it as a worthwhile

place to go for people who want to experience Chinese

medicine functioning at high volume. Sure

they have weaknesses and areas that need to

be improved upon. China is a Third World country

with a population of some 900 million peasants.

There's an awful lot of sick and injured people

and pitifully little money to go around.

But the throughput of patients is enormous in

the clinics that I'm familiar with and the quality

of care is very good overall.

 

But one really big difference in China is that

people who study and practice Chinese medicine

are able to read the literature and can thus

rely upon their own evaluation of source materials

to develop understanding and skill.

 

If you weren't impressed with what you saw in

China, where did you develop the idea that

TCM is great?

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

>>>>>>>And that is were the beauty of

the scientific method comes on. I do not care what you say you know or

care

where you found it or which interpretation you agree with. All I have to

do is

look objectively at your outcome

thank you very much. If you know of a great

place to go in China please let me know. From what I have seen in a large

TCM

hospital with some famously classically trained DR I am still not as

impressed

as many seem to be. TCM is great has a lot to

offer. We have tones to learn. And this is probably true in China as well.

But

we need to look at the average clinic of modernly trained TCM Dr and

OBJECTIVELY evauate outcomes. That is were religion end and science

begins.

alon

 

-

<A TARGET= " Link " title=yulong

href= " yulong " >yulong</A>

<A TARGET= " Link "

title=

 

href= " " > <

/A>

 

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00

PM

Re: Re:

re: literature

 

>

>

<P>Andrew,

>

> Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the

law

> but it is always excusable in the process of education.

> In fact,

it is a primary prerequisite to education and

> therefore

intelligence.

>

> I would say that there is no need for you to ask to

be

> excused for being ignorant of the difference between modern

> medical

Chinese and the language of the classics, but your question

> seems to fill

a very real need...for me at least.

>

> I've been trying to follow the

recent thread on...well, I really

> can't put my finger on the subject of

the thread, and suddenly

> your question appeared and seemed to point the

way towards

> something that I've wanted to say.

>

> And it all has to

do with education and intelligence.

>

> I'll start by responding to your

question.

>

> Modern medical Chinese is as different from

classical

> Chinese as modern medical English is from Old English.

>

> I

only mean that in terms of an order of magnitude

> comparison. I am not

making points about linguistics,

> per se. The textbooks that Chinese

students of Chinese

> medicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing,

include

> the ancient text, translations into modern Chinese,

and

> extensive interpretations and exegesis of the

material.

>

> Students in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in

fact

> at the lower level trade schools and secondary schools

that

> specialize in TCM education as well) study courses in

> ancient

Chinese medical language and texts. Typically

> this course is one semester

long, although there are

> those students who specialize in the medical

classics

> and go on to devote many years to the study. There is

> a PhD

program in Chinese medical classics at Chengdu

> University of TCM, for

example.

>

> Students in the Chinese schools acquire the

modern

> vocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year long

> education

leading to basic certification, as they

> follow courses in basic theory,

diagnosis, acupuncture,

> tui na, herbal medicine, pharmacology, and so on,

 

> learning the nomenclature of these subjects in due

> course.

>

> The

point is that without special training or translations

> into modern

Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese

> medicine cannot access and

thus acquire the data contained

> in the medical classics. Recognizing the

vital importance of these data, those who design currciula in the

Chinese

schools always

> include this course in ancient Chinese medical

language,

> Yi Gu Wen.

>

> This leads me to the more general issue of

education

> and intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in earlier posts

> that

we who study, teach, practice, and research Chinese

> medicine in the West

do so at a tremendous disadvantage

> if we do not acquire the skills

necessary for studying

> in the Chinese language. I'm well aware of the

range of

> opinions and resulting debate about whether or not

this

> really matters. But I have yet to come in contact with

> any

expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine from

> any part of the

world that does not acknowledge its debt

> to the Chinese traditions of the

past whence the subject

> emerged.

>

> The very simple truth is that if

one is interested in

> knowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is

all

> about, one had better look in the medical classics where

> the

subject has been chronicled and archived for more than

> 2,000 years.

 

>

> This is the public record of the subject. It forms an

integral

> part of the basis of all claims of authenticity, validity,

 

> efficacy, etc. that are made with respect to the study and

> practice

of Chinese medicine. The medical classics by no means describe the

limits of

such claims, but they do represent the basis.

>

> There is, of course, a

deep and strong oral transmission,

> rather a whole dimension of the oral

traditions of medicine

> in Chinese history. So that the literary

traditions are

> not the only fundamental repository of Chinese

medical

> intelligence. But they are indispensable.

>

> Unfortunately

for students who do not read and understand Chinese,

> and this means the

classical Chinese in which these medical

> classics were written, this

knowledge is beyond reach.

>

> The work to translate this body of

knowledge into English proceeds,

> but it proceeds slowly. The work of

learning to read and understand

> classical medical Chinese is taken up by

a growing number of individuals, but this is a slow process as

well.

>

> There will be no quick solution to the real situation

here.

>

> Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of

intellectual

> and ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is

perhaps

> best described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, by

> Stevie

Wonder. " When you believe in things that you don't

> understand, then you

suffer. "

>

> In the Dao De Jing, it says, " To know, yet appear not to,

is

> best. To not know yet appear to is illness. "

>

> It seems to me

that the path of medicine, be it traditionally

> Chinese or modernly

Western, has as one of its most basic

> and stringent requirements that

those who follow it be

> possessed of the intellectual courage and insight

to know

> the difference between knowing something and not knowing

it.

>

> The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before they

> get

ill. And the oldest medical wisdom reminds us, Physician,

> heal

thyself.

>

> If we cannot comply with these most fundamental

requirements,

> what meaning do the advanced refinements have?

>

> The

demands of daily life include that we administer

> aid to those who need

it, but this is no reason to

> avoid or tolerate remaining ignorant of the

basic

> issues that form our character as a profession and

> the substance

of our practice.

>

> It is simply a long, hard job. If the

thorough

> study and updating of the medical literature

> were not vital

to the processes of Chinese

> medical education and practice, why have

the

> Chinese been doing so for 2,000 years?

>

> Is there really anyone

on this list who could

> defend a position which states in essence

that

> patients of American (or other non-Chinese)

> practitioners of

Chinese medicine do not deserve

> to be treated by individuals who are as

well

> educated as their Chinese counterparts?

>

> On what basis do

people who do not read

> and understand Chinese medical classics

> go

about deciding what to use from this

> tradition and what to

discard?

>

>

> Just a few questions that recent discussions

> on the

list have jogged to mind.

>

> Ken Rose

>

One of the serious gaps we have, in our clinical practice in

the

> West,

> > is that there is a vast body of case history literature

in Chinese, both

> > modern and classical, which has not yet been

translated. I think this

> > would clarify a lot of the

issues that are being discussed here.

> >

> > Z'ev

Rosenberg

>

> is this situation being rectified now? is there much

diffeence between

> modern medical chinese and that of the classical

writings? [excuse

> ignorance].

>

> Andrew

>

>

> The Chinese Herb

Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners,

matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese

Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

 

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</

A>

>

>

>

> The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

 

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</

A>

 

> Original Message -----

<A TARGET= " Link " title=yulong

href= " yulong " >yulong</A>

<A TARGET= " Link "

title=

 

href= " " > <

/A>

 

Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:00

PM

Re: Re: re:

literature

 

>

>

<P>Andrew,

>

> Ignorance may not be an excuse in the eyes of the

law

> but it is always excusable in the process of education.

> In fact, it

is a primary prerequisite to education and

> therefore intelligence.

>

> I

would say that there is no need for you to ask to be

> excused for being

ignorant of the difference between modern

> medical Chinese and the language

of the classics, but your question

> seems to fill a very real need...for me

at least.

>

> I've been trying to follow the recent thread on...well, I

really

> can't put my finger on the subject of the thread, and

suddenly

> your question appeared and seemed to point the way

towards

> something that I've wanted to say.

>

> And it all has to do with

education and intelligence.

>

> I'll start by responding to your

question.

>

> Modern medical Chinese is as different from

classical

> Chinese as modern medical English is from Old English.

>

> I

only mean that in terms of an order of magnitude

> comparison. I am not

making points about linguistics,

> per se. The textbooks that Chinese

students of Chinese

> medicine use to study, for example the Nei Jing,

include

> the ancient text, translations into modern Chinese,

and

> extensive interpretations and exegesis of the material.

>

> Students

in China at the TCM colleges and universities (in fact

> at the lower level

trade schools and secondary schools that

> specialize in TCM education as

well) study courses in

> ancient Chinese medical language and texts.

Typically

> this course is one semester long, although there are

> those

students who specialize in the medical classics

> and go on to devote many

years to the study. There is

> a PhD program in Chinese medical classics at

Chengdu

> University of TCM, for example.

>

> Students in the Chinese

schools acquire the modern

> vocabulary throughout their 4-5 (or more) year

long

> education leading to basic certification, as they

> follow courses in

basic theory, diagnosis, acupuncture,

> tui na, herbal medicine,

pharmacology, and so on,

> learning the nomenclature of these subjects in

due

> course.

>

> The point is that without special training or

translations

> into modern Chinese langauge, Chinese students of Chinese

 

> medicine cannot access and thus acquire the data contained

> in the

medical classics. Recognizing the vital importance of these data, those

who

design currciula in the Chinese schools always

> include this course in

ancient Chinese medical language,

> Yi Gu Wen.

>

> This leads me to the

more general issue of education

> and intelligence. Z'ev has pointed out in

earlier posts

> that we who study, teach, practice, and research

Chinese

> medicine in the West do so at a tremendous disadvantage

> if we do

not acquire the skills necessary for studying

> in the Chinese language. I'm

well aware of the range of

> opinions and resulting debate about whether or

not this

> really matters. But I have yet to come in contact with

> any

expression or manifestation of Chinese medicine from

> any part of the world

that does not acknowledge its debt

> to the Chinese traditions of the past

whence the subject

> emerged.

>

> The very simple truth is that if one is

interested in

> knowing and understanding what Chinese medicine is

all

> about, one had better look in the medical classics where

> the subject

has been chronicled and archived for more than

> 2,000 years.

>

> This is

the public record of the subject. It forms an integral

> part of the basis of

all claims of authenticity, validity,

> efficacy, etc. that are made with

respect to the study and

> practice of Chinese medicine. The medical

classics by no means describe the limits of such claims, but they do

represent

the basis.

>

> There is, of course, a deep and strong oral

transmission,

> rather a whole dimension of the oral traditions of

medicine

> in Chinese history. So that the literary traditions are

> not the

only fundamental repository of Chinese medical

> intelligence. But they are

indispensable.

>

> Unfortunately for students who do not read and

understand Chinese,

> and this means the classical Chinese in which these

medical

> classics were written, this knowledge is beyond reach.

>

> The

work to translate this body of knowledge into English proceeds,

> but it

proceeds slowly. The work of learning to read and understand

> classical

medical Chinese is taken up by a growing number of individuals, but this

is a

slow process as well.

>

> There will be no quick solution to the real

situation here.

>

> Meanwhile I believe that it behooves people of

intellectual

> and ethical integrity to avoid the trap that is

perhaps

> best described in lyrics to the song, Superstition, by

> Stevie

Wonder. " When you believe in things that you don't

> understand, then you

suffer. "

>

> In the Dao De Jing, it says, " To know, yet appear not to,

is

> best. To not know yet appear to is illness. "

>

> It seems to me that

the path of medicine, be it traditionally

> Chinese or modernly Western, has

as one of its most basic

> and stringent requirements that those who follow

it be

> possessed of the intellectual courage and insight to know

> the

difference between knowing something and not knowing it.

>

> The Nei Jing

advises that we treat patients before they

> get ill. And the oldest medical

wisdom reminds us, Physician,

> heal thyself.

>

> If we cannot comply with

these most fundamental requirements,

> what meaning do the advanced

refinements have?

>

> The demands of daily life include that we

administer

> aid to those who need it, but this is no reason to

> avoid or

tolerate remaining ignorant of the basic

> issues that form our character as

a profession and

> the substance of our practice.

>

> It is simply a long,

hard job. If the thorough

> study and updating of the medical

literature

> were not vital to the processes of Chinese

> medical education

and practice, why have the

> Chinese been doing so for 2,000 years?

>

> Is

there really anyone on this list who could

> defend a position which states

in essence that

> patients of American (or other

non-Chinese)

> practitioners of Chinese medicine do not deserve

> to be

treated by individuals who are as well

> educated as their Chinese

counterparts?

>

> On what basis do people who do not read

> and understand

Chinese medical classics

> go about deciding what to use from

this

> tradition and what to discard?

>

>

> Just a few questions that

recent discussions

> on the list have jogged to mind.

>

> Ken

Rose

> One of the serious gaps we have, in

our clinical practice in the

> West,

> > is that there is a vast body of

case history literature in Chinese, both

> > modern and classical, which

has not yet been translated. I think this

> > would clarify a

lot of the issues that are being discussed here.

> >

> > Z'ev

Rosenberg

>

> is this situation being rectified now? is there much

diffeence between

> modern medical chinese and that of the classical

writings? [excuse

> ignorance].

>

> Andrew

>

>

> The Chinese Herb

Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners,

matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese

Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board

approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

 

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</

A>

>

>

>

> The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

> <A TARGET= " Link "

 

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</

A>

 

>

>

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

<A TARGET= " Link "

href= " http://www..org " >http://www..org</

A>

>

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What exactly where the #'s? Just to point out, it is my understanding, that

in P-Drug research, all that they try to do it beat placebo, if they beat it

by .5-1% then the product is usable, (which then is approximately 31%

success rate)...

BTW - again I will mention that arnica (homeopathic remedy) in the latest

meta-analysis did not even beat placebo.

Any valid therapy (if valid) should be able to beat placebo, I am unsure

how one can rationalize its validity if it can't. (Given that the study is

well designed)...

 

-

 

> If you weren't impressed with what you saw in

> China, where did you develop the idea that

> TCM is great?

> >>>There is great things within the medicine as well as a lot of

> boll in my

> opinion. I am not saying all I saw was negative. But for me it is always a

> game of numbers and when I looked backward at the hundreds of cases I

> followed it was generally disappointing. I like many of the tools

> in OM and

> adapted them in my practice. Nothing is black and white

> alon

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Jason,

I think that one study doesn't negate 200 years of using a remedy to

treat disease, in both animals and humans. Also, the study has to be

designed in homeopathy according to a very specific symptom pattern, called

rubrics, not symptomatically. To say that 'homeopathy doesn't work' based

on such a flawed study is just the kind of brush-off I am worried about with

Chinese medicine with poorly designed, so-called 'objective' studies.

 

 

>

> What exactly where the #'s? Just to point out, it is my understanding, that

> in P-Drug research, all that they try to do it beat placebo, if they beat it

> by .5-1% then the product is usable, (which then is approximately 31%

> success rate)...

> BTW - again I will mention that arnica (homeopathic remedy) in the latest

> meta-analysis did not even beat placebo.

> Any valid therapy (if valid) should be able to beat placebo, I am unsure

> how one can rationalize its validity if it can't. (Given that the study is

> well designed)...

>

> -

>

>

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NEver once said that homeopathy does not work...

 

-JAson

 

(SEE NEXT POST)

 

 

> Jason,

> I think that one study doesn't negate 200 years of using a remedy to

> treat disease, in both animals and humans. Also, the study has to be

> designed in homeopathy according to a very specific symptom

> pattern, called

> rubrics, not symptomatically. To say that 'homeopathy doesn't work' based

> on such a flawed study is just the kind of brush-off I am worried

> about with

> Chinese medicine with poorly designed, so-called 'objective' studies.

>

>

> >

> > What exactly where the #'s? Just to point out, it is my

> understanding, that

> > in P-Drug research, all that they try to do it beat placebo, if

> they beat it

> > by .5-1% then the product is usable, (which then is approximately 31%

> > success rate)...

> > BTW - again I will mention that arnica (homeopathic remedy) in

> the latest

> > meta-analysis did not even beat placebo.

> > Any valid therapy (if valid) should be able to beat placebo, I

> am unsure

> > how one can rationalize its validity if it can't. (Given that

> the study is

> > well designed)...

> >

> > -

> >

> >

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

> variety of professional services, including board approved online

> continuing education.

>

>

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> Jason,

> I think that one study doesn't negate 200 years of using a remedy to

> treat disease, in both animals and humans. Also, the study has to be

> designed in homeopathy according to a very specific symptom

> pattern, called

> rubrics, not symptomatically. To say that 'homeopathy doesn't work' based

> on such a flawed study is just the kind of brush-off I am worried

> about with

> Chinese medicine with poorly designed, so-called 'objective' studies.

>

>

 

 

 

A Meta-Analysis is all current 'non-flawed' studies combined into one

statistical analysis/ report. They are proving to be the most reliable

means to prove efficacy for therapies, drugs etc., for obvious reasons. The

beauty is that they are not looking at one report (which could have any

number of errors, alterations, or blatant fabrications.

 

So.. it did not beat placebo, does this mean anything? I don't know? But

200 years of use does not mean anything to me, physicians used mercury

baths, for who know how many years, and it was killing people left and

right, and it still took years to stop its use. sugar pills harm no one.

I say lets see some studies... Lets see practitioners go against Western

stats, or better yet just try to beat the placebo. Drugs have to, and do,

why can't we? Can't we have 1 practitioner do anything he wants to try to

beat it (herbs, acu, snake oil, chants) or whatever. Get 50 asthma patients

test them at the beginning and see how they are doing in 6 months, 1 year..?

Then there will be no complaints about individualized treatments. Better

yet just use acupuncture, and start with 10 patients. NOTE: sham acu points

faired as well as NADA protocol in one study.

 

How come we rarely hear that any therapy did not work for a given the

disease pattern? How come we only hear of the successes? (A perfect

example is Miriam Lee's book) Is it our ego that is getting in the way out

our patients health? I have already caught myself doing this. I was

writing down all these formulas that have worked for various situations. I

then questioned: where are the formulas that have not worked? Studies are

known to many times be flawed (many times data fabrications exist) because

of monetary and/or egotistical concerns. I see that anecdotal evidence can

be filled with this same type of flaw. We want our system to work? why?

 

As far as Z'ev's comment about rubrics, I am unsure that this is relevant in

the meta-analysis. Arnica was being tested for trauma, and the way that it

is prescribed, correct me if I am wrong, is for symptomatic relief. You

have a trauma, you take arnica, it heals quicker, (i.e. swelling goes down

etc.) -- this seems pretty cut and dry, especially since arnica is the most

popular homeopathic remedy in use (this is an anecdotal statistic) --

although it definitely is the most tested homeopathic remedy.

 

FACT: acupuncture (or herbs) is not BEST for EVERYTHING! so what is it best

at? I do not know? We should be compelled to find out... I am. Isn't it

in the best interest of our patients to do what is best for them. If

homeopathy is better at treating anxiety than herbs should we not refer them

out?

 

200 years? -- is this really that long? I believe that there are numerous

errors in TCM, that went on much longer than 200 years before they were

resolved. Something that has zero studies does not mean that it works!

Something that has 100 studies does not mean that it works! I question

everything, and currently I do not recommend homeopathy to anyone. I do not

disbelieve in it. Although, if there are studies that I am unaware of that

are rigorous, complete and prove that a certain homeopathic remedy is

efficacious for (fill in the blank), then by all means let me know, I would

like to read them (plural).

 

Final note: these are modern times, modern diseases (hopefully no argument)

Western TCM -- is a modern medicine, it is not practiced anywhere near the

classic literature/times

-- for example, modern herbal preparations: extracts, tinctures, strange

preparation methods for pills, different variety of plants, pesticides, etc.

-- how come in China past and present many practitioners would never

needle during lightning? Yet I personally know many who do not mind.

 

So we have a modern era (diseases and treatment procedures and substances)

this combination is not time-tested, theory is theory is theory is

theory...

we do not know what works and what doesn't: the nei jing does not tell us

this, the shan hun lun / jin gui does not tell us this. If so i would like

to see where... We have ideas of what has worked in the past to hopefully

give us insight into the present. How many practitioners prepare formulas

the same way that Dr. Zhang Zhong Jing recommended? or follow all the

instructions he gives? Are the instructions just there for fun? who

knows.. Enough babble.......

 

-

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on 9/18/00 9:48 PM, at wrote:

 

> sham acu points

> faired as well as NADA protocol in one study.

Not surprising. . . .no pattern diagnosis, no TCM diagnosis at all, using a

modern auricular system that is not originally part of Chinese medicine.

 

 

>How come we rarely hear that any therapy did not work for a given the

>disease pattern? How come we only hear of the successes? (A perfect

>example is Miriam Lee's book) Is it our ego that is getting in the way out

>our patients health? I have already caught myself doing this. I was

>writing down all these formulas that have worked for various situations. I

>then questioned: where are the formulas that have not worked? Studies are

>known to many times be flawed (many times data fabrications exist) because

>of monetary and/or egotistical concerns. I see that anecdotal evidence can

>be filled with this same type of flaw. We want our system to work? why?

 

Actually, there are many case histories you can find in the classical

literature of screwups. . . .. this failure denial seems to be part of the

modern literature, or a lack of followup on cases. The Shang Han Lun is

largely concerned with erroneous treatment of wind/cold patterns by

precipitation, excessive use of sweating, or using moxa inappropriately.

Chip Chace's book on case histories (unfortunately out of print), and one of

his past articles deals with his own case screwups. I have tried to give

some of my own in classes as well.

 

The more you study, the more you uncover. Medicine is a vast sea, and we

are divers looking for pearls. If you are looking for something, you will

usually find it if you keep searching.

 

 

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> Jason,

> I think that one study doesn't negate 200 years of using a remedy to

> treat disease, in both animals and humans. Also, the study has to be

> designed in homeopathy according to a very specific symptom pattern,

called

> rubrics, not symptomatically.

 

a few studies have appeared in the Lancet confirming effectiveness of

homeopathy, using double-blind placebo trials. The latest one was done

through Edinburgh uni i think. its not really a matter of dispute anymore,

just a case of reading the literature.

 

Andrew

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