Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 In regard to selling six months of treatment, this would be much more easily accomplished if we had a better grasp of prognosis within a TCM paradigm. This is rarely discussed, if at all. In school the extent of prognosis seems to be, "we can try 6-8 treatments and see how it goes..."if other modalities of healing are getting results in six months or three months, then this gives us some competition. If it takes us seven months, maybe this is not to the best treatment for the patient, or maybe it is because of lack of side effects people prefer us, but statistically we fare less ... this is data, data is power, and power serves the patient. If Western medicine can produce results/a cure (whatever that may be) (let's say) 70% of the time (arbitrary disease), how do we feel comfortable saying that we can produce equal or better?If one can only get the patient to stay for three treatments something is wrong... or if they feel absolutely nothing for six months something seems definitely wrong -- either with the treatment or the medicine. If the patient feels no results they will leave. If the medicine cannot promise a result statistically they might also leave. If the medicine is not right for that case, then they should leave. If the silver-tongued homeopath (mentioned below) "steals" a patient, let them, that is their prerogative. And if they're treatment works, great the patient feels better, if not and your treatment was better, they will come back.TCM is becoming acknowledged in this country, for two major reasons, 1) it is beating placebo and helping people statistically, 2) people are looking for a new kind of medicine. The more we can show that TCM is that kind of medicine the stronger our profession will be. If I can say that 65 percent of people will get better with this treatment, this is power. Is it possible? I do not know...The solution I see: more clinical trials, private practitioners can try to beat placebo or other modalities, as mentioned in my previous post, but schools seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...-- P.s. --> how to sell six months of treatments? Why not take one day a week and treat for research? Offer extremely low rates for a three-month period, or even for free... just an idea...> Heiko reminisced:>> >>>He never regarded his failures as failures,they just didn't have enough> treatment.<<<>> You know, I'd like to get some opinions on this. How do you sell six> months of treatments where the patient may feel absolutely no difference> until that 7th month?>> I'm lucky if I can get three treatments out of a patient without them> running off with some smooth-talking chiro or silver-tongued homeopath.>> We're all taught how to treat patients and every once in a while, I get> a significant success. But nobody has ever addressed what to do in the> face of medicinal failure. I'm a mature person and I can generally keep> things in perspective, but I can't help but wonder if there's something> that I can do to keep my patients through those tough long term cases.>> Sincerely,> --> Al Stone L.Ac.> <AlStone> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com>> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a> variety of professional services, including board approved online> continuing education.>> http://www..org> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 The solution I see: more clinical trials, private practitioners can try to beat placebo or other modalities, as mentioned in my previous post, but schools seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...>>>>>right on alon - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 3:30 PM RE: Re:Jason/failures - prognosis! In regard to selling six months of treatment, this would be much more easily accomplished if we had a better grasp of prognosis within a TCM paradigm. This is rarely discussed, if at all. In school the extent of prognosis seems to be, "we can try 6-8 treatments and see how it goes..."if other modalities of healing are getting results in six months or three months, then this gives us some competition. If it takes us seven months, maybe this is not to the best treatment for the patient, or maybe it is because of lack of side effects people prefer us, but statistically we fare less ... this is data, data is power, and power serves the patient. If Western medicine can produce results/a cure (whatever that may be) (let's say) 70% of the time (arbitrary disease), how do we feel comfortable saying that we can produce equal or better?If one can only get the patient to stay for three treatments something is wrong... or if they feel absolutely nothing for six months something seems definitely wrong -- either with the treatment or the medicine. If the patient feels no results they will leave. If the medicine cannot promise a result statistically they might also leave. If the medicine is not right for that case, then they should leave. If the silver-tongued homeopath (mentioned below) "steals" a patient, let them, that is their prerogative. And if they're treatment works, great the patient feels better, if not and your treatment was better, they will come back.TCM is becoming acknowledged in this country, for two major reasons, 1) it is beating placebo and helping people statistically, 2) people are looking for a new kind of medicine. The more we can show that TCM is that kind of medicine the stronger our profession will be. If I can say that 65 percent of people will get better with this treatment, this is power. Is it possible? I do not know...The solution I see: more clinical trials, private practitioners can try to beat placebo or other modalities, as mentioned in my previous post, but schools seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...-- P.s. --> how to sell six months of treatments? Why not take one day a week and treat for research? Offer extremely low rates for a three-month period, or even for free... just an idea...> Heiko reminisced:>> >>>He never regarded his failures as failures,they just didn't have enough> treatment.<<<>> You know, I'd like to get some opinions on this. How do you sell six> months of treatments where the patient may feel absolutely no difference> until that 7th month?>> I'm lucky if I can get three treatments out of a patient without them> running off with some smooth-talking chiro or silver-tongued homeopath.>> We're all taught how to treat patients and every once in a while, I get> a significant success. But nobody has ever addressed what to do in the> face of medicinal failure. I'm a mature person and I can generally keep> things in perspective, but I can't help but wonder if there's something> that I can do to keep my patients through those tough long term cases.>> Sincerely,> --> Al Stone L.Ac.> <AlStone> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com>> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a> variety of professional services, including board approved online> continuing education.>> http://www..org> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...>>>where did this discussion start. This is the first post I received - alonmarcus Tuesday, September 19, 2000 5:38 PM Re: Re:Jason/failures - prognosis! The solution I see: more clinical trials, private practitioners can try to beat placebo or other modalities, as mentioned in my previous post, but schools seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...>>>>>right on alon - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 3:30 PM RE: Re:Jason/failures - prognosis! In regard to selling six months of treatment, this would be much more easily accomplished if we had a better grasp of prognosis within a TCM paradigm. This is rarely discussed, if at all. In school the extent of prognosis seems to be, "we can try 6-8 treatments and see how it goes..."if other modalities of healing are getting results in six months or three months, then this gives us some competition. If it takes us seven months, maybe this is not to the best treatment for the patient, or maybe it is because of lack of side effects people prefer us, but statistically we fare less ... this is data, data is power, and power serves the patient. If Western medicine can produce results/a cure (whatever that may be) (let's say) 70% of the time (arbitrary disease), how do we feel comfortable saying that we can produce equal or better?If one can only get the patient to stay for three treatments something is wrong... or if they feel absolutely nothing for six months something seems definitely wrong -- either with the treatment or the medicine. If the patient feels no results they will leave. If the medicine cannot promise a result statistically they might also leave. If the medicine is not right for that case, then they should leave. If the silver-tongued homeopath (mentioned below) "steals" a patient, let them, that is their prerogative. And if they're treatment works, great the patient feels better, if not and your treatment was better, they will come back.TCM is becoming acknowledged in this country, for two major reasons, 1) it is beating placebo and helping people statistically, 2) people are looking for a new kind of medicine. The more we can show that TCM is that kind of medicine the stronger our profession will be. If I can say that 65 percent of people will get better with this treatment, this is power. Is it possible? I do not know...The solution I see: more clinical trials, private practitioners can try to beat placebo or other modalities, as mentioned in my previous post, but schools seem to be the best place for research. I personally do not see enough research being conducted in our school system. What are we scared of? Are we afraid that our medicine will not be as good as we believe? Why do so many people denied that research as possible for a TCM modality? China is doing research... The classic authors obviously did their own research to come up with affective treatments... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas...-- P.s. --> how to sell six months of treatments? Why not take one day a week and treat for research? Offer extremely low rates for a three-month period, or even for free... just an idea...> Heiko reminisced:>> >>>He never regarded his failures as failures,they just didn't have enough> treatment.<<<>> You know, I'd like to get some opinions on this. How do you sell six> months of treatments where the patient may feel absolutely no difference> until that 7th month?>> I'm lucky if I can get three treatments out of a patient without them> running off with some smooth-talking chiro or silver-tongued homeopath.>> We're all taught how to treat patients and every once in a while, I get> a significant success. But nobody has ever addressed what to do in the> face of medicinal failure. I'm a mature person and I can generally keep> things in perspective, but I can't help but wonder if there's something> that I can do to keep my patients through those tough long term cases.>> Sincerely,> --> Al Stone L.Ac.> <AlStone> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com>> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a> variety of professional services, including board approved online> continuing education.>> http://www..org> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 In regard to selling six months of treatment, this would be much more easily accomplished if we had a better grasp of prognosis within a TCM paradigm. This is rarely discussed, if at all. In school the extent of prognosis seems to be, " we can try 6-8 treatments and see how it goes... " This is not prognosis. . . .this is groping in the dark. if other modalities of healing are getting results in six months or three months, then this gives us some competition. If it takes us seven months, maybe this is not to the best treatment for the patient, or maybe it is because of lack of side effects people prefer us, but statistically we fare less ... this is data, data is power, and power serves the patient. If Western medicine can produce results/a cure (whatever that may be) (let's say) 70% of the time (arbitrary disease), how do we feel comfortable saying that we can produce equal or better? Of course, here it is important to understand what 'cure' means, just as one has to define what 'remission' is. If one can only get the patient to stay for three treatments something is wrong... or if they feel absolutely nothing for six months something seems definitely wrong -- either with the treatment or the medicine. If the patient feels no results they will leave. If the medicine cannot promise a result statistically they might also leave. If the medicine is not right for that case, then they should leave. If the silver-tongued homeopath (mentioned below) " steals " a patient, let them, that is their prerogative. And if they're treatment works, great the patient feels better, if not and your treatment was better, they will come back. One of the sources of this dilemma is the need to put more emphasis on learning pulse diagnosis. . . .our most important tool in diagnosis, prognosis, and determining etiology. The Nan Jing and Bin Hu Mai Xue, both available in English, have a lot of material that would be helpful. Also, studying Li Dong-yuan's Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach, Zhu Dan-xi's " Heart and Essence of Dan-xi's Method of Treatment " , Liu Yi-ren's " Heart Transmission of Medicine " and other classical internal medicine texts will teach you about how to manage complex disorders which have a longer course of contraction, treatment and cure. Without this information, we truly are in the dark. A typical TCM school education in the West simply doesn't prepare one to treat difficult and complex illnesses, and how to manage them over long periods. ... since we have modern diseases, modern techniques, modern environment, modern medicinals etc., we must re-evaluate the concepts and theories, of the past, and methods of the present to prove to people of today that our system is valuable, if we want to grow successfully... enough preaching, these are just some ideas... I am not so sure that there are such great differences with 'modern diseases'. . . .I have found most of my useful information for modern diseases in classical works. For example, one has to reframe, say, anorexia, in the realm of internal emotional damage to spleen and stomach, take note of the symptoms (loss of taste, weight, appetite, fatigue, weak limbs, etc.), and then chart out a course to build up the spleen and stomach with diet, herbs and councelling. There is lots for us to do, and lots of source material to help us do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 I think of a couple of passages from those darned classics that pertain to this thread. The Nei Jing advises that we treat patients before they get sick. People who are treated in this fashion do not need to be convinced of anything. They pay their doctors to keep them healthy. The same passage points out that it is far more effective to educate people before they become unruly than to try and rule them after they are rebelling. Centuries later, Sun Si Miao, reflecting on the wisdom of his ancestors, remarked that it was a very poor idea to treat any patient who did not believe that he or she could benefit from the treatment. How do we bring about this kind of human environment in our field? That's a good question. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 > > Centuries later, Sun Si Miao, reflecting on > the wisdom of his ancestors, remarked that it > was a very poor idea to treat any patient > who did not believe that he or she could > benefit from the treatment. > > How do we bring about this kind of human > environment in our field? > > That's a good question. > I personally wouldn't waste my time or my patient's time if they did not have the motivation to believe they could benefit from the treatment. It is my job, however, to diagnose, prognose, and determine realistic expectations from treatment so there also is not undue disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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