Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 I have some questions regarding herbs. Please excuse my ignorance. My training in Chinese herbs involved memorizing chinese pin yin names/characters and not botanical names. I'm looking at a formula from one of Bob Flaws' books that calls for " herba ephedrae sinesis " which I assume is Ma Huang? And another herb called " Gelatinum cornu cervi " which I assume is e jiao. These botanical names differ slightly from the ones in Bensky's book. Any explanation? Thanks, Julie _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 In a message dated 10/10/00 10:38:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rockymtnacupt writes: << I'm looking at a formula from one of Bob Flaws' books that calls for " herba ephedrae sinesis " which I assume is Ma Huang? And another herb called " Gelatinum cornu cervi " which I assume is e jiao. These botanical names differ slightly from the ones in Bensky's book. Any explanation? >> " Sinensis " above just refers to the fact that the Ma Huang is the Chinese species of Ephedra. There is a great book you might like called Gardener's Latin, which explains how to interpret the latin names of genus, species, parts of plants, etc. Look more carefully at Bensky. E Jiao is Gelatinum Corii Asini, and Lu Jiao Jiao is Gelatinum Cornu Cervi. These words all come from the botanical or zoological names of the substances being used. At our school we teach pinyin and latin so that students have an idea how to interpret the names. Good luck in your learning. Julie (Chambers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 cornu cervi>>>Lu Rong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 Cornu cervi parvum=Lu Rong Cornu cervi gelatinum= Lu Jiao Jiao alonmarcus [alonmarcus]Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: [botanical names cornu cervi>>>Lu RongChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 Botanical Latin, the world standard for referring to species, is not pharmaceutical Latin. Pharmaceutical Latin appends the name of the part used, but often leaves off the binomial which designates the species. I believe the addition of the adjective requires grammatical changes to the noun, so that the botanical " panax " becomes " panicis. " So although " Herba Ephedrae " in Bensky is given as the proper name for Ma Huang, an American might be tempted to use Ephedra nevadensis, Mormon Tea, instead of Ephedra sinica and the two other species listed. And the formula wouldn't work as it should because there are many different ephedras with very different properties. A pet peeve of mine....Pharmaecutical Latin is little used outside of Chinese medicine. I'd far rather say the " branch of Cinnamomum cassia Blume " than " Ramulus Cinnamomi cassiae. " All the research and botanical literature on herbs is done using botanical Latin and when students don't know that Ma Huang is Ephedra sinica, they won't have access to important information or worse yet will assume it applies to local ephedras. (Or that the Ci wu jia form of Wu jia pi is Siberian Ginseng, Elutherococcus senticosus, since we are using an outdated form of the pharmaceutical Latin with Acanthopanacis). And we saw what happened when the FDA went to ban herbs based upon Pinyin instead of botanical Latin and Mu Tong in all of its benign forms was banned instead of just Aristolochia manshuriensis. Let's teach botanical Latin and change the national exams! Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are. " --Malcolm Forbes ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 In a message dated 10/10/00 3:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: << A pet peeve of mine....Pharmaecutical Latin is little used outside of Chinese medicine. I'd far rather say the " branch of Cinnamomum cassia Blume " than " Ramulus Cinnamomi cassiae. " All the research and botanical literature on herbs is done using botanical Latin and when students don't know that Ma Huang is Ephedra sinica, >> Karen, what exactly is your pet peeve? Do you want pharmaceutcal latin to be used, or not? and why? Your passionate reply somehow clouded your actual point -- for me, at least. Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 I want botanical Latin to be used. Pharmaceutical Latin is an artifact that only clouds the issue and is not the Latin used by the rest of the world. Without the binomial, which is lacking in the pharmaceutical Latin of our MMs, we don't know the species. And we don't know the species with Pinyin either. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are. " --Malcolm Forbes ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 In a message dated 10/11/00 4:43:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: << I want botanical Latin to be used. Pharmaceutical Latin is an artifact that only clouds the issue and is not the Latin used by the rest of the world. Without the binomial, which is lacking in the pharmaceutical Latin of our MMs, we don't know the species. And we don't know the species with Pinyin either. >> Karen, I see your point now. But in most cases (in Bensky), the pharmaceutical latin DOES include the binomial. And when it does not, isn't that because several species may be used as the same herb, and then Bensky attempts to clarify the choices? By the way, how do we ever know for sure what species we are using? I can't tell from the labelling on the packages I receive from my supplier. Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 , Karen S Vaughan < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > > Let's teach botanical Latin and change the national exams! I couldn't agree more. The issue of botanical latin is also crucial to avoiding the use of incorrect species that have the same pinyin name. FYI, most ban xia in the US and europe is not pinellia, but a typhonium species. Most sheng ma is not cimicifuga, but a serrulata species. Despite this, these herbs are referred to as tuber pinellia and rhizoma cimicifuga by herb suppliers. However, no botanist would even consider identifying the former herb as pinellia ternata. By raising our standards to conform to modern scientific nomenclature, we will be able to avoid the unscrupulous actions of some importers who have chosen to ignore this issue. Springwind herbs can provide details on these issues. but suffice it to say, there are serious clinical ramifications from these nonstandard substitutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 In a message dated 10/11/00 6:22:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: << Do any of the schools require botany for herbal OM degrees? >> We require botany, and the state of CA requires it, but most local schools that I know of teach " Botany and Intro to Herbs " , whereas we have a separate Botany class. Some at my school wanted to eliminate it, but I fought to keep it in, and we have a great Botany teacher. But I never knew what Todd says, about Ban Xia not being Pinellia, and so on...how could we know, I entreat you to tell me! Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 In a message dated 10/10/00 3:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: << I believe the addition of the adjective requires grammatical changes to the noun, so that the botanical " panax " becomes " panicis. " >> The reason for the grammatical changes to the noun have to do with the genitive case (or " possessive " if you will)....so Cortex Moutan Radicis means bark OF THE root of Moutan...I don't mind those grammatical changes, but I agree with you, Karen, that simply saying, " Bark of the root of _______ _______ (binomial) " is the clearest, most accurate way of identifying herbs. What can we, as educators, do? Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 Sometimes Bensky has binomials. But look at ma huang, where there are literally thousands of ephederae which are unsuitable. Or wu jia pi where the genus is listed as acanthopanacis (acanthopanax) instead of elutherococcus. If we don't insist upon botanical accuracy from our suppliers and support those who provide it, we'll keep getting into the clinical ramifications mentioned. (Think aristolochia mu tong substituted for akebia mu tong). Not to mention further FDA interventions. (And I won't get into the annoyance of trying to identify herbs in school and getting the correct botanical name wrong because neither the instructors nor their assistants could tell the botanical Latin from a misspelling of pharmaceutical Latin.) Do any of the schools require botany for herbal OM degrees? Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side by side - to take us around the unknown curve. " - Lillian Smith ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 Julie, > What can we, as educators, do? Well, no sooner do we move the discussion of terminology and related topics to another location than the herbalists find themselves embroiled in the terminology issue. I suggest that the answer to your simple and direct question is a long and involved one. Having recognized such a problem, which is, I submit for everyone's consideration, simply a sub-set of the larger set of issues related to translation and terminology, the next step is figuring out what to do. I'd suggest that a responsible approach would be to map out the whole territory of terminology related to herbs and create a comprehensive overview of all the specific issues that need to be addressed in a solution. Trying to solve bits and pieces of the puzzle will not be satisfactory, I believe. Perhaps a study group should be formed to undertake the actual work. The first task would be to get a clear grasp of the order of magnitude of the work to be done. I believe it is a big job, rather than a little job. This is precisely the sort of work that I envision taking place within the confines of an online archive of Chinese medical literature. I invite you to come on over to the ChineseMedicine.net list where we're discussing this very topic. Ken- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2000 Report Share Posted October 11, 2000 I'll drink to that, Ken. on 10/11/00 9:41 PM, Ken Rose at cosmic.dragon wrote: > Julie, > >> What can we, as educators, do? > > Well, no sooner do we move the discussion of terminology and > related topics to another location than the herbalists find themselves > embroiled in the terminology issue. > > I suggest that the answer to your simple and direct question is > a long and involved one. Having recognized such a problem, > which is, I submit for everyone's consideration, simply a sub-set > of the larger set of issues related to translation and terminology, > the next step is figuring out what to do. > > I'd suggest that a responsible approach would be to map out > the whole territory of terminology related to herbs and create > a comprehensive overview of all the specific issues that need > to be addressed in a solution. > > Trying to solve bits and pieces of the puzzle will not be satisfactory, > I believe. Perhaps a study group should be formed to undertake > the actual work. The first task would be to get a clear grasp of the > order of magnitude of the work to be done. I believe it is a big > job, rather than a little job. > > This is precisely the sort of work that I envision taking place > within the confines of an online archive of Chinese medical > literature. I invite you to come on over to the ChineseMedicine.net > list where we're discussing this very topic. > > Ken- > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> > Get FREE long-distance phone calls on Tellme! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2000 Report Share Posted October 12, 2000 What is the address for subscribing to the ChineseMedicine list?? - Ken Rose Wednesday, October 11, 2000 9:41 PM Re: Re: [botanical names Julie,> What can we, as educators, do?Well, no sooner do we move the discussion of terminology andrelated topics to another location than the herbalists find themselvesembroiled in the terminology issue.I suggest that the answer to your simple and direct question isa long and involved one. Having recognized such a problem,which is, I submit for everyone's consideration, simply a sub-setof the larger set of issues related to translation and terminology,the next step is figuring out what to do.I'd suggest that a responsible approach would be to map outthe whole territory of terminology related to herbs and createa comprehensive overview of all the specific issues that needto be addressed in a solution.Trying to solve bits and pieces of the puzzle will not be satisfactory,I believe. Perhaps a study group should be formed to undertakethe actual work. The first task would be to get a clear grasp of theorder of magnitude of the work to be done. I believe it is a bigjob, rather than a little job.This is precisely the sort of work that I envision taking placewithin the confines of an online archive of Chinese medicalliterature. I invite you to come on over to the ChineseMedicine.netlist where we're discussing this very topic.Ken-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2000 Report Share Posted October 12, 2000 Catherine (and any others who may be interested to join) To to ChineseMedicine.net list go to: //ChineseMedicinenet Ken What is the address for subscribing to the ChineseMedicine list?? - Ken Rose Wednesday, October 11, 2000 9:41 PM Re: Re: [botanical names Julie,> What can we, as educators, do?Well, no sooner do we move the discussion of terminology andrelated topics to another location than the herbalists find themselvesembroiled in the terminology issue.I suggest that the answer to your simple and direct question isa long and involved one. Having recognized such a problem,which is, I submit for everyone's consideration, simply a sub-setof the larger set of issues related to translation and terminology,the next step is figuring out what to do.I'd suggest that a responsible approach would be to map outthe whole territory of terminology related to herbs and createa comprehensive overview of all the specific issues that needto be addressed in a solution.Trying to solve bits and pieces of the puzzle will not be satisfactory,I believe. Perhaps a study group should be formed to undertakethe actual work. The first task would be to get a clear grasp of theorder of magnitude of the work to be done. I believe it is a bigjob, rather than a little job.This is precisely the sort of work that I envision taking placewithin the confines of an online archive of Chinese medicalliterature. I invite you to come on over to the ChineseMedicine.netlist where we're discussing this very topic.Ken-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2000 Report Share Posted October 12, 2000 whats in the list? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2000 Report Share Posted October 16, 2000 This is an important objective, and one that needs to be addressed. Oriental Medicine uses outdated language and it is academically honest and future-thinking to start to address this issue. It is a change that will take a number of years, if not a decade or more to change, but that is certainly not a reason to put it off any longer. David Molony In a message dated 10/10/00 6:52:18 PM, creationsgarden writes: << Botanical Latin, the world standard for referring to species, is not pharmaceutical Latin. Pharmaceutical Latin appends the name of the part used, but often leaves off the binomial which designates the species. I believe the addition of the adjective requires grammatical changes to the noun, so that the botanical " panax " becomes " panicis. " So although " Herba Ephedrae " in Bensky is given as the proper name for Ma Huang, an American might be tempted to use Ephedra nevadensis, Mormon Tea, instead of Ephedra sinica and the two other species listed. And the formula wouldn't work as it should because there are many different ephedras with very different properties. A pet peeve of mine....Pharmaecutical Latin is little used outside of Chinese medicine. I'd far rather say the " branch of Cinnamomum cassia Blume " than " Ramulus Cinnamomi cassiae. " All the research and botanical literature on herbs is done using botanical Latin and when students don't know that Ma Huang is Ephedra sinica, they won't have access to important information or worse yet will assume it applies to local ephedras. (Or that the Ci wu jia form of Wu jia pi is Siberian Ginseng, Elutherococcus senticosus, since we are using an outdated form of the pharmaceutical Latin with Acanthopanacis). And we saw what happened when the FDA went to ban herbs based upon Pinyin instead of botanical Latin and Mu Tong in all of its benign forms was banned instead of just Aristolochia manshuriensis. Let's teach botanical Latin and change the national exams! Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.