food intolerances and herbs

[Guest guest]

I've had an interesting case come in to student clinic the other day and am

wondering if anyone here could offer some pointers.

A man (52) with severe intolerances to gluten, sugar, and lactose came in for

herbal treatment, presenting with Spleen and Stomach Xu and Cold, and Kidney

Yang Xu as his major patterns. Symptoms included:

All began approx. 10 years ago after a bout of dysentry when travelling.

Cyclic bouts of diarreah that are not necessarily related to food.

Diareah and abdominal pain (LH upper side) after eating either sugar or gluten,

different kinds of pain for either (he can differentiate).

Diareah contains undigested food and is accompanied by foggy head, inability to

concentrate, fatigue, weakness in legs, dry itchy eyes, borborygmy, pain,

bloating.

Better with warmth, low back pain, fatigue sets in each day around 3:30-4:00,

sleeps okay, constantly craves sugar (can't eat fruit), yellowish tint to the

skin (xu).

My main query is what herbs *can* we use for this man!? has anyone had any

relevant experience who would like to share?

In the first week we gave him a formula consisting of:

Dang Shen

Gan Jiang

Bai Zhu

Fu Ling

Wu Zhu Yu

Shan Zha

Du Zhong

Xu Duan

Suan Zao Ren

Chen Pi

Gu Ya

he had a sugar kind of reaction within hours of taking this formula, took it for

2 days to check and it put him out for about another 3. Now we have sorted

through the herbs removing and replacing any herbs with known sucrose and

fructose content (source text: Bensky) but havn't heard back yet.

I don't like being in a position where I cannot properly differentiate whether

the herbs will cause a reaction, and would really appreciate some feedback from

others who have been in this situation. Thankyou very much,

Nicole.

 

___________

For the most comprehensive Traditional Healthcare information

on the Web, visit http://www.acupuncture.com today!

[Guest guest]

Nicole:

 

I've seen similar reactions in patients and students with these

patterns and similar herbal formulas. You should consider the

patient's condition and symptoms in the context of 5-Elements. When

Earth and Water are very deficient and cold, then liver, even when

there are no overt symptoms, should be considered excessive by

comparison (see Chapter 70 of the Suwen for this kind of modeling).

The yellowness of the skin and low back pain also raises some

suspicion of liver's involvement. If the liver pulse showed *any*

stress---wiriness, stagnation, or damp heat---in this situation or

was unsupported by the yin water element, it could easily trigger

this type of response by your herbal formula. When patients are this

weak or chronic, their energy is unstable and it takes very little to

trigger a reaction.

 

Looking at your herbal formula: Wu zhu yu because it warms the liver

and is reinforced by kidney yang and liver tonification herbs can

create a strong 5-element wood movement either upward or toward the

pancreas. Pancreas and adrenals are on a kind of teeter-tauter. When

the function of one rises the other declines, partly in regulating

the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Simulation to

the adrenals (kidney yang) and liver by the herbal formula can easily

suppress pancreatic function and throw the patient into hypoglycemia

and possibly adrenal exhaustion. Similar to the way coffee

overstimulates then exhausts a person (overstimulation by caffeine,

bitter oils stimulate gall bladder but dry up liver yin, and bitter

taste exhausts spleen).

 

Hope this is of some help. Without examine the pulses in detail, it's

difficult to say for certain; but your case is not unusual.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Nicole Wallis <nicole@a...>

wrote:

> I've had an interesting case come in to student clinic the other

day and am wondering if anyone here could offer some pointers.

> A man (52) with severe intolerances to gluten, sugar, and lactose

came in for herbal treatment, presenting with Spleen and Stomach Xu

and Cold, and Kidney Yang Xu as his major patterns. Symptoms

included:

> All began approx. 10 years ago after a bout of dysentry when

travelling.

> Cyclic bouts of diarreah that are not necessarily related to food.

> Diareah and abdominal pain (LH upper side) after eating either

sugar or gluten, different kinds of pain for either (he can

differentiate).

> Diareah contains undigested food and is accompanied by foggy head,

inability to concentrate, fatigue, weakness in legs, dry itchy eyes,

borborygmy, pain, bloating.

> Better with warmth, low back pain, fatigue sets in each day around

3:30-4:00, sleeps okay, constantly craves sugar (can't eat fruit),

yellowish tint to the skin (xu).

> My main query is what herbs *can* we use for this man!? has anyone

had any relevant experience who would like to share?

> In the first week we gave him a formula consisting of:

> Dang Shen

> Gan Jiang

> Bai Zhu

> Fu Ling

> Wu Zhu Yu

> Shan Zha

> Du Zhong

> Xu Duan

> Suan Zao Ren

> Chen Pi

> Gu Ya

> he had a sugar kind of reaction within hours of taking this

formula, took it for 2 days to check and it put him out for about

another 3. Now we have sorted through the herbs removing and

replacing any herbs with known sucrose and fructose content (source

text: Bensky) but havn't heard back yet.

> I don't like being in a position where I cannot properly

differentiate whether the herbs will cause a reaction, and would

really appreciate some feedback from others who have been in this

situation. Thankyou very much,

> Nicole.

>

> ___________

> For the most comprehensive Traditional Healthcare information

> on the Web, visit http://www.acupuncture.com today!

[Guest guest]

Hi Nichol:

 

I am this person myself and so the Universe sends me many people like this

to help. But, first let me tell you that, because I like to use both

Western and Eastern herbs and have no interest in learning Chinese, I have

not emphasized pin yin -- I use the pharm. language. I don't have time to

look up translations for your formula so I will just state what I use.

 

First, the cause: At this time all fruit, fruit juices and cold foods

should be avoided while the " middle " is being warmed -- the digestion being

tonified. Veggies should be lightly steamed with a little grated ginger in

them. A nice " pleasure tea " with cinnamon, fresh ginger, cloves and dried

orange peels -- even a pinch of allspice -- would be nice This could be

sweetened, if necessary, with a little honey or, better, use stevia or agave

cactus syrup if available. Rice could be used but should be browned in a

dry skillet before using and only small amounts.

 

Instead of salads-as-usual, such a person could benefit from a bowl of

chopped parsley, watercress, (home) sprouted fennugrek, raphani, lentils,

sunflower seeds and little beans (especially adzuki) all mixed together with

chopped avocado. Sprinkle with shredded Nori seaweed. Use a

ginger/mustard/olive oil/garlic dressing. Yummy. At mealtimes a cup of miso

soup.

 

Lightly broiled animal foods, avoid dairy products and sugars

 

Later, a few of the " violating foods " can be introduced but the person can

not resume dietary self-abuse or the problem will just reoccur

 

Institute deep breathing exercises to rejuvenate the digestion. Vitamin B

complex is a must. 200 mg chromium with meals.

 

As a basic medicinal tea, the 6 Gents as primary (substitute A. Alba with

Canzu) with Cardamom, Cinnamon and Fennel and Morinda as secondaries. And,

to get rid of any intestinal parasites, use an extract of Black Walnut Hulls

 

Beverly Coleman, MPH, Dipl. Ac

acupuncturist, herbalist, nutritionist

(520) 204-9233; fax (520) 204-2027

wellness

www.beverlycoleman.com

[Guest guest]

>

> James Ramholz [OMJournal]

> Wednesday, October 18, 2000 11:12 PM

>

> Re: food intolerances and herbs

>

 

>

> Looking at your herbal formula: Wu zhu yu because it warms the liver

> and is reinforced by kidney yang and liver tonification herbs can

> create a strong 5-element wood movement either upward or toward the

> pancreas. Pancreas and adrenals are on a kind of teeter-tauter. When

> the function of one rises the other declines, partly in regulating

> the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Simulation to

> the adrenals (kidney yang) and liver by the herbal formula can easily

> suppress pancreatic function and throw the patient into hypoglycemia

> and possibly adrenal exhaustion.

 

1st- Excuse my ignorance - does wu zhu yu really a warm the liver? or just

released constraint from the liver channel? If it is releasing constraint

does this increase movement towards the pancreas? What exactly is meant by

pancreas? What aspect of pancreas? My western knowledge is limited, but I

consider many aspects of the pancreas very similar to spleen yang. In TCM

if one tonifies kidney yang (adrenals) does this not benefit spleen yang?

I'm unsure how this formula is decreasing pancreatic function? I cannot see

this formula focusing on the liver or tonifying liver (yang?).., and

tonifying kidney yang (to me) does not mean tonifying liver (yang?) Could

you please explain in a little more detail?

 

As far as the formula is concerned

Dang Shen

Gan Jiang

Bai Zhu

Fu Ling

Wu Zhu Yu

Shan Zha

Du Zhong

Xu Duan

Suan Zao Ren

Chen Pi

Gu Ya

 

some of the herbs look a little strange (i.e. suan zao ren, du zhong, xu

duan)? maybe leave out the suan zao ren and if you want a kid yang maybe bu

gu zhi? but that is just me. Also how much food stagnation is present

(shan zha etc...) why exactly wu zhu yu? What us the treatment priciple

here?

Could you just keep it simple and see how he reacts with a formula like

regulate the middle pill (li zhong wan)

maybe this has obviously been explored, but what about parasites?

just some ideas...

 

-

[Guest guest]

Wu zhu yu is pungent, bitter, hot, and slightly toxic; one of the

meridians it goes to is the liver meridian. It is contraindicated for

persons who are yin deficient or have excess fire for these reasons.

It can stimulate blood pressure (liver). So, it can create an upward

movement in some people. If used raw, it should be stir-baked to

reverse the upward flow of stomach and liver qi.

 

The liver (wind) movement, when overstimulated, can go in any

direction. It is often involved many complicated patterns. The

symptoms Nicole mentioned sounded like hypoglycemia (sudden or sharp

drop in spleen yang or function). In pulse diagnosis, the pancreas is

found at the endocrine level of earth element. The sudden decrease in

pancreatic function is due to the teeter-tauter effect between the

adrenals and pancreas. Tonifying kidney yang can support spleen yang

when the energies mix well, but the effect I'm describing from taking

the formula is caused by a strong movement from kidney (adrenals can

be found at the endocrine level of the Water element) toward liver;

then the liver movement goes toward earth. It's not an uncommon

pattern in weak or chronically ill patients when stimulated the way

the formula suggests.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, <@o...>

wrote:

>

>

> >

> > James Ramholz [OMJournal@m...]

> > Wednesday, October 18, 2000 11:12 PM

> >

> > Re: food intolerances and herbs

> >

>

> >

> > Looking at your herbal formula: Wu zhu yu because it warms the

liver

> > and is reinforced by kidney yang and liver tonification herbs can

> > create a strong 5-element wood movement either upward or toward

the

> > pancreas. Pancreas and adrenals are on a kind of teeter-tauter.

When

> > the function of one rises the other declines, partly in regulating

> > the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Simulation to

> > the adrenals (kidney yang) and liver by the herbal formula can

easily

> > suppress pancreatic function and throw the patient into

hypoglycemia

> > and possibly adrenal exhaustion.

>

> 1st- Excuse my ignorance - does wu zhu yu really a warm the liver?

or just

> released constraint from the liver channel? If it is releasing

constraint

> does this increase movement towards the pancreas? What exactly is

meant by

> pancreas? What aspect of pancreas? My western knowledge is

limited, but I

> consider many aspects of the pancreas very similar to spleen yang.

In TCM

> if one tonifies kidney yang (adrenals) does this not benefit spleen

yang?

> I'm unsure how this formula is decreasing pancreatic function? I

cannot see

> this formula focusing on the liver or tonifying liver (yang?).., and

> tonifying kidney yang (to me) does not mean tonifying liver (yang?)

Could

> you please explain in a little more detail?

>

> As far as the formula is concerned

> Dang Shen

> Gan Jiang

> Bai Zhu

> Fu Ling

> Wu Zhu Yu

> Shan Zha

> Du Zhong

> Xu Duan

> Suan Zao Ren

> Chen Pi

> Gu Ya

>

> some of the herbs look a little strange (i.e. suan zao ren, du

zhong, xu

> duan)? maybe leave out the suan zao ren and if you want a kid yang

maybe bu

> gu zhi? but that is just me. Also how much food stagnation is

present

> (shan zha etc...) why exactly wu zhu yu? What us the treatment

priciple

> here?

> Could you just keep it simple and see how he reacts with a formula

like

> regulate the middle pill (li zhong wan)

> maybe this has obviously been explored, but what about parasites?

> just some ideas...

>

> -

[Guest guest]

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> In pulse diagnosis, the pancreas is

> found at the endocrine level of earth element.

 

Oops. You lost me on that one.

 

Endocrine level? Deep?

Earth element? Middle position on the right side?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

>

> James Ramholz [OMJournal]

> Thursday, October 19, 2000 9:07 PM

>

> Re: food intolerances and herbs

>

>

> Wu zhu yu is pungent, bitter, hot, and slightly toxic; one of the

> meridians it goes to is the liver meridian. It is contraindicated for

> persons who are yin deficient or have excess fire for these reasons.

> It can stimulate blood pressure (liver).

 

I am wondering about this blood pressure factor?

1) where is this sourced?

2) I personally think the function of 'relieving lv constraint in liver

channel' (bensky), 'smoothing the liver' (One of my teachers from china) or

even 'warming lv channel' is much different that stimulating blood pressure

(lv yang rising ???) (which is NOT a direct correlation with blood

pressure..) I do not understand 'blood pressure (liver)' Bensky also

mentions about using it topically to lower blood pressure almost immediately

(12-24 hours)...

 

So, it can create an upward

> movement in some people.

 

Well, I have no idea, but because of its anti-st rebellion fx it seems to

mostly move down. Also, my teacher from china mentions that it 'moves things

down'. But anything hot I assume can go up...? and it is acrid. therefore,

I wonder about it's use in the formula for this patient???

Side Note: traditionally it is used with huang lian to treat Liver FIRE

(causing lv-st dish.)...

 

If used raw, it should be stir-baked to

> reverse the upward flow of stomach and liver qi.

 

question: what is normally found in pharmacies? The raw? and are you saying

if it is not stir-baked it does something else, does not descend rebel st

qi...?

 

>

> The liver (wind) movement, when overstimulated, can go in any

> direction. It is often involved many complicated patterns.

 

I am missing the wind symptoms here?? and again how it is stimulated...

 

The

> symptoms Nicole mentioned sounded like hypoglycemia (sudden or sharp

> drop in spleen yang or function).

 

would pain and diarrhea immediately after eating a food necessarily be a

sudden drop in sp yang fx? and can one directly correlate hypoglycemia with

spleen yang xu?

 

 

In pulse diagnosis, the pancreas is

> found at the endocrine level of earth element. The sudden decrease in

> pancreatic function is due to the teeter-tauter effect between the

> adrenals and pancreas. Tonifying kidney yang can support spleen yang

> when the energies mix well, but the effect I'm describing from taking

> the formula is caused by a strong movement from kidney (adrenals can

> be found at the endocrine level of the Water element) toward liver;

> then the liver movement goes toward earth. It's not an uncommon

> pattern in weak or chronically ill patients when stimulated the way

> the formula suggests.

 

I am unsure exactly what that means, It is beyond my knowledge of pulses,

but I am still unsure how that formula is stimulating liver to attack earth?

(because of stimulating kin. yang??) I am unfamiliar with this mechanism.

We must also remember to treat lv -> earth (or to prevent) one must tonify

earth, and this formula does this. I am confused on this one...

 

-

[Guest guest]

If I remember correctly there is an "e-group" dedicated to the complexities

of pulse analysis. People who wish to discuss this further may want to

check that discussion list out.

>>>James Ramholz wrote:

Pancreas and spleen and not clearly distinguished

but belong to

earth. In the Nan Ching, each pulse position can be divided into

three levels. The boundary between the deepest third and the middle

third is the endocrine level; so pancreas, being an endocrine gland,

is at that level in the earth position.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pancreas and spleen and not clearly distinguished but belong to

earth. In the Nan Ching, each pulse position can be divided into

three levels. The boundary between the deepest third and the middle

third is the endocrine level; so pancreas, being an endocrine gland,

is at that level in the earth position.

 

Using the ideas from the Nan Ching, we can look not just at a

general reading of a jiao but at very specific things in each jiao.

For example, from the pulse alone, we can distinguish if a patient

has breast cancer or lung cancer when examining the right distal

position. If you only use the material from Li Shi Zhen regarding the

qualities of a pulse , you miss most of the picture. Using the

concepts of the Nan Ching with the material from the Li Shi zhen you

can often see problems before symptoms occur.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

>

> James Ramholz wrote:

>

> > In pulse diagnosis, the pancreas is

> > found at the endocrine level of earth element.

>

> Oops. You lost me on that one.

>

> Endocrine level? Deep?

> Earth element? Middle position on the right side?

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone@B...>

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

James Ramholz wrote:

>

> Pancreas and spleen and not clearly distinguished but belong to

> earth. In the Nan Ching, each pulse position can be divided into

> three levels. The boundary between the deepest third and the middle

> third is the endocrine level; so pancreas, being an endocrine gland,

> is at that level in the earth position.

 

Blurring the line between Spleen and Pancreas is perfectly cool with me,

but where in the Nan Ching does the concept of " endicrine " arise? I'm

not looking for a verse number, I'm just curious as to your logic on this.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

The Nan Ching discusses three different levels. The interpretation

regarding the endocrine system comes from the Dong Han pulse

diagnosis system.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

> In , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> Blurring the line between Spleen and Pancreas is perfectly cool

> with me, but where in the Nan Ching does the concept of " endocrine "

> arise? I'm not looking for a verse number, I'm just curious as to

> your logic on this.

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone@B...>

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

The boundary between the deepest third and the middle third is the endocrine level;

>>>>Where is endocrine mentioned in the Nan Ching?

alon

[Guest guest]

The endocrine system isn't mentioned in the Nan Ching. The

interpretation of the Nan Ching is from the Dong Han pulse diagnosis

system which incorporates the Nan Ching material with the Li Shi zhen

as its basic perspective. The classics aren't the final authority of

what can be know; they are a starting point.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> The boundary between the deepest third and the middle

> third is the endocrine level;

> >>>>Where is endocrine mentioned in the Nan Ching?

> alon

[Guest guest]

, Nicole Wallis <nicole@a...>

wrote:

> I've had an interesting case come in to student clinic the other

day and am wondering if anyone here could offer some pointers.

> A man (52) with severe intolerances to gluten, sugar,...

 

> Now we have sorted through the herbs removing and replacing any

herbs with known sucrose and fructose content (source text: Bensky)

but

> havn't heard back yet.

 

 

I would be curious how sugar intolerance was determined? NAET,

muscle

testing, vegatesting. As everyone knows, sugar does not cause an

allergic response like gluten does. Only substances of a sufficient

complexity and molecular weight can cause a true allergy. Most of

these are proteins, like gluten. Lactose intolerance is due to the

deficiency of the enzyme that cleaves the lactose molecule. This

enzyme is produced in almost all humans, yet those who give up dairy

early in life (like right after weaning) often lose this capacity.

However, it is not possible to lose the capacity to absorb fructose,

because fructose is a monosaccharide, meaning it does not need to be

cleaved to be absorbed.

 

Sucrose is a disaccharide, meaning an deficiency of sucrase could

conceivably lead to sucrose intolerance. However, unlike dairy, it

is

very unlikely that many humans stop using sucrose containing foods

early in life. Unlike a true allergy which can be caused by

excessive

exposure to a protein, a suagr intolerance is prevented by continuous

exposure. This does not only mean white sugar, but also common foods

that are high in sucrose, such as carrots. Carrots are typically

used

as baby food and then are one of the favorite vegetables worldwide

for

all peoples. So a true sucrose intolerance, analogous to a lactose

intolerance, is generally considered a biological impossibility for

humans.

 

In addition, I believe most vegetable matter contains at least small

amounts of sucrose or fructose, as plants use these same substances

to

transfer energy. So it would be unlikely to find a completely " sugar-

free " formula in this regard, even if these are not listed as chief

components in bensky. So called Sugar intolerance is more likely due

to

problems with pancreas or insulin. However, sugars cannot be

avoided.

Glucose is in our blood all the time. So the solution is not to

avoid

naturally occurring sugars, but rather regulate the physiological

problems that interfere with assimilation. Having said all that, I

have seen plenty of patients who react to most foods and also most

herbs. Since acupuncture has been well documented in china to

favorably

impact blood sugar, perhaps this is a case where the patient is

unable

to take herbs, but needs extensive acupuncture first. Studies from

china indicate daily treatment for a month to get sustained

regulation,

even in type 2 diabetic patients.

 

If anyone wants to pursue the discussion of acupuncture for this

purpose, please to acupunctureguild

 

finally, the patient's reaction maybe due to the wrong dx and rx.

you

indicated, " Diarrhea contains undigested food and is accompanied by

foggy head, inability to concentrate, fatigue, weakness in legs, dry

itchy eyes, borborygmy, pain, bloating, Better with warmth, low back

pain, fatigue. " Since dysentary was the initiator, you may be

overlooking a pathogenic factor. Your rx includes herbs to disperse

food accumulation and cold stagnation. However, this symptom complex

could also be due to damp or dampheat. According to Steven Clavey,

damp or dampheat also can cause low back pain and may both be

relieved

by warmth (dampheat if damp is prominent and impeding circulation of

yang qi).

 

I didn't catch any pulse or tongue signs in your presentation

(perhaps

my oversight), but if the tongue coat is thick and greasy and the

pulse

is NOT slow, deep and weak, I would not be jumping to yang xu as the

chief pattern. Dampheat is almost ubiquitous in chronic digestive

problems, in my opinion, due to the fact that all pathogens transform

to heat. spleen xu is also likely in most chronic cases, so I do not

mean to rule out the vacuity. It is my understanding that internal

cold pathogens only linger untransformed if yang is severely damaged.

 

this would mean that the patient would present with very overt signs

of

yang xu, not vague ones. also, the contraction of the original

pathogen at age 42 also makes severe yang xu unlikely unless the

patient has a serious illness like AIDS. According to the theory of

mutual engenderment of pathology, the only way to treat a chronic

illness successfully is to identify and treat all the

pathomechanisms.

Thus, a different formula might yield different results that have

nothing to do with sugar content at all.

 

Personally, I will not treat patients who insist that I modify my

formulae based upon so-called intolerances, unless they have been

determined by valid reproducible testing methods (which means no

patients waving pendulums in my pharmacy!).

 

[Guest guest]

What is the addresse for this e group on pulse

Ty

 

-

L.Ac.

Friday, October 20, 2000 02:13 AM

Re: Re: food intolerances and herbs

If I remember correctly there is an "e-group" dedicated to the complexities of pulse analysis. People who wish to discuss this further may want to check that discussion list out. >>>James Ramholz wrote: Pancreas and spleen and not clearly distinguished but belong to earth. In the Nan Ching, each pulse position can be divided into three levels. The boundary between the deepest third and the middle third is the endocrine level; so pancreas, being an endocrine gland, is at that level in the earth position. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.