Guest guest Posted October 20, 2000 Report Share Posted October 20, 2000 Jason The formula you used .. liu jun zi tang - pills, decoction. liu jun zi tang + huang bai bu zhong yi qi tang - decoction. er miai san - decoction. si ni san - decoction. are all warming ,the si ni san has chai hu which is drying etc,the huang bai may still not be enough to cool the 6 gentleman .Even though er miao san is in theory balanced ,the cang zhu is obviously (in my opinion) still too warm and drying in this case. I suspect there is some kind of damp pathogen ,probably warm as well ,stuck in the legs in the thigh muscles .The coating is thick/sl greasy and has some red prickles etc .Sounds like some damp and heat to me.She eats late at night ......I think would generate stasis and therfore extra damp.I relise there are other qi xu signs etc .I can't think of a base formula but I would try something along the lines of ze xie,yi yi ren,tong cao,mu tong,fu ling pi ,to move damp via diuresis and maybe a few herbs like su ye ,bo he and maybe pei lan to disperse pathogen through the exterior. I would be inteested what the others would have to say. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2000 Report Share Posted October 22, 2000 Jason >I am wondering what damp stuck in the thigh muscles is and how one treats it specifically? Could one assume it is similar to leg qi? After reading Clavey's book and all the wierd and wonderfull ways damp and phlegm can present themselves I just thought that damp (and heat) in this case has got stuck in the thigh.I can't say why ,why does sometimes damp get caught in the right wrist .........it just does.Specific treatment in this case is not able to be done (if done by me!) because its a complicated case with over lapping zang fu stuff.I would try the gentle diuretics and see if they aggravate.A few packets wouldn't be draining .If it aggravates then we think of something else. Has anybody else read this case...Peter Borten,Z'ev ..... Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 OK we have talked about yin fire,gu ,purging etc I think what Jason wants is an actual formula that he can presribe to his patient with the hot legs. Do we have any other takers?Otherwise his patient's damp is going to get more damp. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Heiko, Thanx for the response, I agree with the damp (heat) pathogen (lingering) idea... Although... I am wondering what damp stuck in the thigh muscles is and how one treats it specifically? Could one assume it is similar to leg qi? The only reluctance to using so many drainers is that she is very xu, and cold (that is why the choice in the fx.'s) I tried to balance it as much as possible, 1st just trying to allow the body to take care of the damp on it's own (with 6 gents), then tried to pull it up and ton. spleen w/ bu zhong.. thinking the d-h was pouring down into the legs (btw this helped her chief complaint tremendously)...Then tried to keep it as simple as possible with er miao san (attacking the lower jiao and still supporting sp)... then... I thought si ni san was the only cool fx. that might still be tolerated. But it was not. One thing to mention is that the hot legs are present even without herbs, but very mild. The herbs just aggravate it to an unbearable level. Any other ideas? - > Jason > The formula you used > . > liu jun zi tang - pills, decoction. > liu jun zi tang + huang bai > bu zhong yi qi tang - decoction. > er miai san - decoction. > si ni san - decoction. > > are all warming ,the si ni san has chai hu which is drying > etc,the huang bai > may still not be enough to cool the 6 gentleman .Even though er > miao san is > in theory balanced ,the cang zhu is obviously (in my opinion) > still too warm > and drying in this case. > I suspect there is some kind of damp pathogen ,probably warm as > well ,stuck > in the legs in the thigh muscles .The coating is thick/sl greasy and has > some red prickles etc .Sounds like some damp and heat to me.She eats late > at night ......I think would generate stasis and therfore extra damp.I > relise there are other qi xu signs etc .I can't think of a base > formula but > I would try something along the lines of ze xie,yi yi ren,tong cao,mu > tong,fu ling pi ,to move damp via diuresis and maybe a few herbs > like su ye > ,bo he and maybe pei lan to disperse pathogen through the exterior. > I would be inteested what the others would have to say. > > > Heiko Lade > Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist > 2 Jenkins St. > Green Island, Dunedin > New Zealand > Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 > http://www.lade.com/heiko > Email: heiko > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a > variety of professional services, including board approved online > continuing education. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Jason yi yi ren and fu ling/shen are often used by Chinese in simple home remedy soups eg cook with beef or pork and she could have a bowel with her meal. If she reacts to that ....... Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2000 Report Share Posted October 25, 2000 The only reluctance to using so many drainers is that she is very xu, andcold (that is why the choice in the fx.'s) I tried to balance it as much aspossible, 1st just trying to allow the body to take care of the damp on it'sown (with 6 gents), then tried to pull it up and ton. spleen w/ bu zhong >>>Remember that unresolved excess results in deficiency. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Well to interject on this fine conversation... 1) some interesting ideas have been expressed, thanx everyone... I will try to summarize the fine suggestions (for everyone and myself) a) todd - focus more on clearing d-h while treating all mutually engendering pathomechanisms and up the doses b) alon - tx the DAMP 1st and foremost c) heiko - gentle diuretics (and watch for aggravation) d) ruth - treat the mental (ala chai hu) i.e. chai hu jia long gu mu li tang e) Z'ev - address entire pattern at once 2) Increasing the doses in the formulas of the formulas given might aggravate the legs (although I do go pretty high, especially at 1st)-- because of this complication I tried to only pick simple formulas (for example, er miao san - and I even tried huang bai with bai zhu) -- so at this point treating the whole pattern, unless there is a severely different treatment approach/formula, I am wary of. So ... I am unclear on how to clear more d-h and treat the root in a simple matter. Specific examples would be helpful, but at this point I'm going to do another two herb combo to see how she reacts -- something mild (yi yi ren and fu ling (or fu shen)) what do you all think? - > > heiko [heiko] > Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:16 AM > > Re: HOT Legz cont > > > OK we have talked about yin fire,gu ,purging etc > I think what Jason wants is an actual formula that he can presribe to his > patient with the hot legs. > Do we have any other takers?Otherwise his patient's damp is going to get > more damp. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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