PC-SPES

[Guest guest]

Richard

Z'ev mentioned 4 patterns .....commonly though it would be easy to have a

mixture of 2 or more of them and then more complicated patterns on top or

under that.

Thats why I find it hard to believe that a simple formula of 6-10 herbs will

be the panacea for prostate cancer.

Just having a quick look at that PC thing ,I'd suspect that people with

chronic diarreah wouldn't fare too well.

 

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

[Guest guest]

Well, the media's all a buzz about a promising new prostate cancer

herbal medicine called " PC-SPES " .

 

You can read all about it at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_994000/994227.stm

 

I'm curious though. In the LA Times article

(http://www.latimes.com/news/reports/china/news/20001021/t000100530.html

it mentioned that this formula has been used for thousands of years.

I'm not familiar with this formula, does anybody recognize it? (minus of

course, the Saw palmetto)

 

Here's the formula:

 

Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)

Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)

Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)

Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)

Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)

Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)

Rabdosia rebescens

Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

 

>From what I've read, (http://www.ecpcp.org/pcspes.html) it seems that

these herbs were chosen for their biomedical actions and not their

traditional functions. Any comments from the peanut (Arachis hypogaea) gallery?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I've been using it since Feb00, after 6 months of triple hormone blockade.

PSA='undetectible' and all is well. Check the web site at: www.pcspes.com.

Cheers,

R. Kavalar

 

-

" Al Stone " <alstone

" Chinese Herbal Medicine "

Saturday, October 28, 2000 7:54 PM

PC-SPES

 

 

> Well, the media's all a buzz about a promising new prostate cancer

> herbal medicine called " PC-SPES " .

>

> You can read all about it at:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_994000/994227.stm

>

> I'm curious though. In the LA Times article

> (http://www.latimes.com/news/reports/china/news/20001021/t000100530.html

> it mentioned that this formula has been used for thousands of years.

> I'm not familiar with this formula, does anybody recognize it? (minus of

> course, the Saw palmetto)

>

> Here's the formula:

>

> Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)

> Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)

> Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)

> Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)

> Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)

> Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)

> Rabdosia rebescens

> Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

>

> >From what I've read, (http://www.ecpcp.org/pcspes.html) it seems that

> these herbs were chosen for their biomedical actions and not their

> traditional functions. Any comments from the peanut (Arachis hypogaea)

gallery?

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thousands of years, right.

 

I don't think this is a 'traditional formula' by any stretch. Apparently,

the studies show some unpleasant side effects. . . .it would indicate that

the combination of medicinals here is far from ideal. The structure of

this prescription is hardly 'traditional'.

 

 

 

>

> I'm curious though. In the LA Times article

> (http://www.latimes.com/news/reports/china/news/20001021/t000100530.html

> it mentioned that this formula has been used for thousands of years.

> I'm not familiar with this formula, does anybody recognize it? (minus of

> course, the Saw palmetto)

>

> Here's the formula:

>

> Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)

> Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)

> Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)

> Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)

> Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)

> Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)

> Rabdosia rebescens

> Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

>

>> From what I've read, (http://www.ecpcp.org/pcspes.html) it seems that

> these herbs were chosen for their biomedical actions and not their

> traditional functions. Any comments from the peanut (Arachis hypogaea)

> gallery?

[Guest guest]

Hi,

O.K., so what's you're alternative for prostate cancer!!! I know this

works.

Cheers,

R. Kavalar

 

-

" " <zrosenberg

 

Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:02 PM

Re: PC-SPES

 

 

> Thousands of years, right.

>

> I don't think this is a 'traditional formula' by any stretch. Apparently,

> the studies show some unpleasant side effects. . . .it would indicate that

> the combination of medicinals here is far from ideal. The structure of

> this prescription is hardly 'traditional'.

>

>

>

> >

> > I'm curious though. In the LA Times article

> > (http://www.latimes.com/news/reports/china/news/20001021/t000100530.html

> > it mentioned that this formula has been used for thousands of years.

> > I'm not familiar with this formula, does anybody recognize it? (minus of

> > course, the Saw palmetto)

> >

> > Here's the formula:

> >

> > Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)

> > Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)

> > Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)

> > Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)

> > Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)

> > Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)

> > Rabdosia rebescens

> > Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

> >

> >> From what I've read, (http://www.ecpcp.org/pcspes.html) it seems that

> > these herbs were chosen for their biomedical actions and not their

> > traditional functions. Any comments from the peanut (Arachis hypogaea)

> > gallery?

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

on 10/28/00 7:06 PM, Richard Kavalar at rkavalar wrote:

 

> Hi,

> O.K., so what's you're alternative for prostate cancer!!! I know this

> works.

> Cheers,

> R. Kavalar

>

1)Whatever PC-SPES is, this isn't Chinese medicine. So, discussing it here

doesn't make much sense.

2) Using Chinese herbs (with some non-Chinese herbs) is not Chinese

medicine. Pattern differentiation is Chinese medicine

3) There is no substitute for differentiation of patterns of patients with

prostate cancer, and then choosing appropriate prescriptions. If one

analyzes the ingredients, one can determine which patients the prescription

is appropriate for. However, this prescription has little rhyme or reason,

is not combined according to the principles of Chinese medicine, and

therefore would be good reason for some skepticism for its claims.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I would still like to know what approach and components you use for prostate

cancer. There must be some range of ingredients.

Cheers,

R. kavalar

 

-

" " <zrosenberg

 

Sunday, October 29, 2000 12:02 AM

Re: PC-SPES

 

 

> on 10/28/00 7:06 PM, Richard Kavalar at rkavalar wrote:

>

> > Hi,

> > O.K., so what's you're alternative for prostate cancer!!! I know this

> > works.

> > Cheers,

> > R. Kavalar

> >

> 1)Whatever PC-SPES is, this isn't Chinese medicine. So, discussing it

here

> doesn't make much sense.

> 2) Using Chinese herbs (with some non-Chinese herbs) is not Chinese

> medicine. Pattern differentiation is Chinese medicine

> 3) There is no substitute for differentiation of patterns of patients with

> prostate cancer, and then choosing appropriate prescriptions. If one

> analyzes the ingredients, one can determine which patients the

prescription

> is appropriate for. However, this prescription has little rhyme or

reason,

> is not combined according to the principles of Chinese medicine, and

> therefore would be good reason for some skepticism for its claims.

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

 

> 1)Whatever PC-SPES is, this isn't Chinese medicine. So, discussing it here

> doesn't make much sense.

 

Actually,the dicussion of non-TCM use of chinese herbs is an acceptable

topic for this list. However, the discussion must necessarily focus on

biomedical and pharmacological concepts. TCM theory may be used to

critique or explain the possible validity of the approach. The downside

of PC-spes is that its side effect profile is similar (though less

severe) to agents like Lupron and that it is probably a mixture of

purified herb components, rather than crude herbs themselves. It is

definitely a western medical approach to chinese herbology. I would

suspect that if it were used by a large number of people, we would have

reports of mounting problems. Allopathy inherently causes side

effects, regardless of the substances chosen. This is common in

naturopathic medicine, for example.

 

for previous CHA discussion on this topic, see

/messagesearch/?query=PC-SPES

 

there is no single TCM approach to prostate cancer, nor is there

adequate research to support TCM as effective in this illness. given

that this disease may be terminal, it may make sense to use Pc-spes in

some cases.

 

[Guest guest]

on 10/28/00 9:15 PM, Richard Kavalar at rkavalar wrote:

 

> Hello,

> I would still like to know what approach and components you use for prostate

> cancer. There must be some range of ingredients.

> Cheers,

> R. kavalar

>

 

Dear Richard,

I have treated a number of prostate cancer PATIENTS, but not as the sole

caretaker without other methods being used, either biomedicine or

alternative. It is difficult to treat cancer patients in America without

integrated treatment, both politically and practically. I am glad you have

had good results with your regimen. . . .however, to isolate the effects of

PC-SPES would be difficult, since you started after hormone therapy. Most

prostate cancer patients have a similar story; results from combination

methods.

No matter who or what I treat, I will use pattern diagnosis and choose a

formula accordingly. Also, there are many possible stages and

transformations of patterns with prostate cancer. The reason I am adamant

about this is because of the nature of this group (Chinese Herbal Medicine).

This site is designed for professional practitioners of Chinese herbal

medicine. Therefore there are important criteria to be emphasized. If you

are speaking as a patient who is seeking channels of information, I

understand. If you are looking to treat others, however, the criteria must

apply here.

 

To generalize, a few patterns that may apply:

 

1) liver/gall bladder fire with damp-heat in the lower burner. Choose long

dan xie gan tang

2) gao lin/unctuous strangury (cloudy painful urinary disfunction), kidney

qi vacuity with inability to separate clear from turbid. Choose bei xie fen

qing yin

3) xue lin/blood strangury or damp-heat in the bladder. Choose ba zheng

san.

4) wind/cold attack to tai yang entering the bladder. Choose wu ling san.

 

 

There are many others of which there is not room here to mention. I hope

this gives you some idea of the possibilities.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I wander if these are the only ingredients. The testosterone suppression of PC-Seps is quite remarkable

alon

 

 

Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)> Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)> Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)> Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)> Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)> Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)> Rabdosia rebescens> Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

[Guest guest]

Using Chinese herbs (with some non-Chinese herbs) is not Chinesemedicine. Pattern differentiation is Chinese medicine>>>>So what you are saying is that

1. OM can not change or develop

2. All family, or other traditions, that do not follow (TCM) pattern discrimination are not CM.

alon

[Guest guest]

on 10/29/00 8:10 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

Using Chinese herbs (with some non-Chinese herbs) is not Chinese

medicine. Pattern differentiation is Chinese medicine

>>>>So what you are saying is that

1. OM can not change or develop

2. All family, or other traditions, that do not follow (TCM) pattern discrimination are not CM.

alon

 

Using any treatment modality, if it can be understood by yin yang, wu xing, liu jing, wei qi ying xue, jing luo, or zang fu pattern diagnosis can be incorporated in TCM, whether east west north or south. It simply takes time, clinical experience and peer review to do so. Many western herbs will, in time, be incorporated into CM practice. However, to just put saw palmetto, an herb with a good history in the West for genitourinary disorders, without understanding its nature according to Chinese medical theory, into a chaotic prescription with Chinese medicinals not only doesn't make sense, we do not know its possible interactions with the other medicines in the prescription. This makes no sense, professionally or ethically. Why should we approve anything that comes along, just because it has 'Chinese herbs' in it? What about 'Herbal Ecstasy'? That has 'Chinese herbs' in it, too. We shouldn't play on lay people's inate desire to get well with ready-made hype.

 

I don't know of any eastern medical tradition that doesn't use yin and yang or its derivatives. . . (maybe Yoshimasu Todo's herbal school in Japan?). what are you thinking of here, Alon?

 

 

[Guest guest]

> I think its great (especially for those helped, of course) that someone has

been able to do the studies. It is strange that after all this good work we have

done (3000 years of TCM) that it comes out in this " vitamin of the week "

publicity. But you gotta give them credit for

> the research, the results, the trials. It seems to be a small company,

right?... perhaps with Asian backing so I hope my formula for ___________ does

just as well. ;-)

 

I think its a pretty good formula, TCM wise, that will fit a lot of patients,

its not for everyone. Now we can offer our own PC-Spes-like formulas to our

patients and the patients will have a frame of reference and studies to back it

up.

 

But does anyone know what this is?

Rabdosia rebescens

[Guest guest]

, " L.Ac. " <

taiqi@t...> wrote:

 

>

> I think its a pretty good formula, TCM wise, that will fit a lot of patients,

its not for everyone.

 

it does seem to address certain relevant tx principles for tx of

prostate cancer, such as clear dampheat toxin (huang qin, gan cao, qing

dai), as well as move blood (san qi) and supplement qi (ling zhi)

 

Now we can offer our own PC-Spes-like formulas to our patients and the

patients will have a frame of reference and studies to back it up.

 

however, i still think it may contain undisclosed drugs or be made from

isolated herbal constituents as it is used at very low dosage

 

[Guest guest]

It seems that they are using very highly concentrated herbal extracts,

possibly with isolated phytosterols. Researchers at Rutgers who are

studying this formula say that there is no estradiol or other estrogens.

But the concentration puts it in drug rather than herbal categories.

 

Rabdosia rebescens Dong Ling Cao

Common Name: Rabdosia

Part Used: the aerial part of the herb

Energy and Flavors: Not known

Type of Cancer: It has been successfully used for esophageal cancers,

breast and prostate cancer.

 

Article assessing efficacy (positive) at:

Int J Oncol 2000 Oct;17(4):729-36

Chinese herbal mixture PC SPES in treatment of prostate cancer.

Darzynkiewicz Z, Traganos F, Wu JM, Chen S

Brander Cancer Research Institute at NYMC, Hawthorne, NY 10532, USA.

 

Michael Tierra 's take on the formula is:

Clears damp heat from the lower warmer (pelvic cavity) and the liver

with rabdosia, scutellaria baical, and isatis, chrysanthemum remove

inflammation and treat cancer with these herbs as well; Move blood with

tienchi ginseng, tonify the normal (righteous qi) with ganoderma, nourish

the prostate with saw palmetto (also relieve inflammation), harmonize

(alleviate reactions against the combination or other idiosyncratic

reactions) with licorice root.

 

Not customized, and more drug than herbal, but this may give some

guidance on applicability. Underlying deficiencies, etc. still need to

be addressed.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side

by side - to take us around the unknown curve. " - Lillian Smith

 

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 07:57:34 -0800 <alonmarcus writes:

>------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C0417D.E5B2ED80

>Content-Type: text/plain;

> charset= " iso-8859-1 "

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

>I wander if these are the only ingredients. The testosterone

>suppression of=

> PC-Seps is quite remarkable

>alon

>

>

>Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)

>> Glycyrrhiza glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)

>> Panax pseudo-ginseng (san qi)

>> Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)

>> Scutellaria baicalensis (huang qin)

>> Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)

>> Rabdosia rebescens

>> Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)

>

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C0417D.E5B2ED80

>Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN " >

><HTML><HEAD>

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><META content= " MSHTML 5.50.4134.600 " name=GENERATOR>

><STYLE></STYLE>

></HEAD>

><BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I wander if these are the only

>ingredients. The

>testosterone suppression of PC-Seps is quite remarkable</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>alon</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT face= " Courier New " ></FONT> & nbsp;</DIV>

><DIV><FONT face= " Courier New " ></FONT> & nbsp;</DIV>

><DIV><FONT face= " Courier New " >Isatis indigotica (da qing ye)<BR> & gt;

>Glycyrrhiza

>glabra and Glycyrrhiza uralensis (gan cao)<BR> & gt; Panax

>pseudo-ginseng (san

>qi)<BR> & gt; Ganoderma lucidum (ling zhi)<BR> & gt; Scutellaria

>baicalensis (huang

>qin)<BR> & gt; Dendranthema (chrysanthemum)<BR> & gt; Rabdosia

>rebescens<BR> & gt; Saw

>palmetto (Serenoa repens)</FONT><BR></DIV>

><br>

>

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>healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

>academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

>of professional services, including board approved online continuing

>education.<BR>

><BR>

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[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

> Thousands of years, right.

>

> I don't think this is a 'traditional formula' by any stretch.

Apparently,

> the studies show some unpleasant side effects. . . .

 

My suspicion is that the journalist confused the fact that while the

herbs themselves may have been used for thousands of years, the

formula certainly hasn't been. I think that underscores our need to

educate journalists about the differences between herbs and formulas.

They're pretty clueless and very powerful - a dangerous combo with

dangerous side effects -- the blind leading the blind.

 

Other than nipple tenderness, what other " unpleasant side effects "

are you referring to, and what are your sources for your information?

 

Toni

[Guest guest]

, tnarins@o... wrote:

 

>

> My suspicion is that the journalist confused the fact that while the

> herbs themselves may have been used for thousands of years, the

> formula certainly hasn't been. I think that underscores our need to

> educate journalists about the differences between herbs and formulas.

> They're pretty clueless and very powerful - a dangerous combo with

> dangerous side effects -- the blind leading the blind.

 

I suppose one of the questions that is begged here is whether anyone

has had good success controlling prostate cancer using the TCM

bianzheng method. Edythe vickers in Portland, OR, who is Subhuti

dharmananda's wife and a px for about 15 years apparently has, but I

don't know anyone else who has. So unless we can treat this

effectively using our method, no sense throwing rocks in a glass house.

 

As for whether individualized therapy is better than allopathic use of

herbs, cheack out the only double blind study ever published in JAMA on

the subject, which was IBS. the results are mixed. the link is

http://www.usyd.edu.au/su/exterel/news/990429News/29.4.irritable.html

 

todd

>

>

[Guest guest]

don't know of any eastern medical tradition that doesn't use yin and yang or its derivatives. . . (maybe Yoshimasu Todo's herbal school in Japan?). what are you thinking of here, Alon? >>>In the hospital I worked there was an 80yr old Dr that practiced some kind of family tradition. He saw 300 pt before lunch time (8am-12). No body was allowed to study with him (that is he does not allow anybody to follow him for extended times), including the Chinese Dr in our hospital. Unlike all the other family trained Dr in the hospital he was never forced to go through additional formal training. I was able to spend 1 hr per day with him. He never asks any questions of the patients. They just tell him their main complaint, he takes their pulse for less than 5 seconds asks to look at their tongue (but half the time did not raise his eyes to actually look at the tongue) and then prescribe a formula of a minimum of 20 herbs (some as large as 40 herbs). The formulas did not make any sense at all. From what I saw they never matched the tongue, they never made sense for the chief complain. No body has any ide what he's doing. He had a great reputation. The doctors I studied with said they tried, but could not, make any sense after analyzing hundreds of formulas.

Is this CM?

alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

The formulas did not make any sense at all. From what I saw they never

matched the tongue, they never made sense for the chief complain. No

body has any ide what he's doing. He had a great reputation. The

doctors I studied with said they tried, but could not, make any sense

after analyzing hundreds of formulas.

> Is this CM?

> alon

 

If he looked at the pulse and tongue, he must have been doing some form

of bian zheng, even if you couldn't follow his logic. otherwise, why

bother? did he give the same rx to all patients with the same disease?

If not, he must have been making differential assessment of patients.

It may not be TCM, but its still bianzheng and I think that is what

Zev was referring to.

 

[Guest guest]

So unless we can treat this effectively using our method, no sense throwing rocks in a glass house.

>>>>That is the bottom line, all else is just dogmatic talk

alon

[Guest guest]

<<I suppose one of the questions that is begged here is whether anyone

has had good success controlling prostate cancer using the TCM

bianzheng method. ...So unless we can treat this effectively using our

method, no sense throwing rocks in a glass house.>>

 

Planetary's Saw Palmetto Prostate formula has also demonstrated the

ability to lower PSA values as within two months of use in one man

diagnosed with Prostate cancer, reported by Shasta Tierra.

 

But this raises the question of whether we can adapt to using bianzheng

diagnosis to complement effective allopathic treatments, be they with

drugs or herbal pharmaceuticals like PC-SPES. If we can get a decent

sense of the energetics of pharmaceuticals *and* do bianzheng diagnosis,

we can complement the energetics and customize tx to build up the

underlying issues.

 

I'd really like to find a good book on the energetics of western

pharmaceuticals.....

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" The unfortunate thing about this world is that the good habits are much

easier to give up than the bad ones. " W. Somerset Maugham

 

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[Guest guest]

, Karen S Vaughan <

creationsgarden@j...> wrote:

 

>

> I'd really like to find a good book on the energetics of western

> pharmaceuticals.....

 

 

i think flaws has done some good work in this area, as has Zev

[Guest guest]

on 10/29/00 8:20 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

So unless we can treat this

effectively using our method, no sense throwing rocks in a glass house.

>>>>That is the bottom line, all else is just dogmatic talk

alon

 

eGroups Sponsor

Sorry, Alon,

Nobody has THE cure for prostate cancer, or any other type of cancer, for that matter. This doesn't mean that sometimes a treatment or combination of treatment methods cannot bring a cure. But it is difficult to come up with an absolutely reproduceable cure.

I strongly resent your dismissive attitude that somehow we shouldn't discuss the nuances of treatment and medical philsophy in order to seek out better ways to heal our patients, which is what we are studying this medicine for. You are too quick to use terms such as dogmatic, and harsh in your expression.

 

 

[Guest guest]

on 10/29/00 8:03 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

don't know of any eastern medical tradition that doesn't use yin and yang or its derivatives. . . (maybe Yoshimasu Todo's herbal school in Japan?). what are you thinking of here, Alon?

 

>>>In the hospital I worked there was an 80yr old Dr that practiced some kind of family tradition. He saw 300 pt before lunch time (8am-12). No body was allowed to study with him (that is he does not allow anybody to follow him for extended times), including the Chinese Dr in our hospital. Unlike all the other family trained Dr in the hospital he was never forced to go through additional formal training. I was able to spend 1 hr per day with him. He never asks any questions of the patients. They just tell him their main complaint, he takes their pulse for less than 5 seconds asks to look at their tongue (but half the time did not raise his eyes to actually look at the tongue) and then prescribe a formula of a minimum of 20 herbs (some as large as 40 herbs). The formulas did not make any sense at all. From what I saw they never matched the tongue, they never made sense for the chief complain. No body has any ide what he's doing. He had a great reputation. The doctors I studied with said they tried, but could not, make any sense after analyzing hundreds of formulas.

Is this CM?

alon

 

 

This is difficult to discuss, criticize or defend, Alon.

 

In a literate medical tradition, like Chinese medicine, there has to be some way to make a clinical record, discussion or explanation about the work of a physician. You are asking us to rely on your individual appraisal of one doctor's treatment, and trust that as 'the truth'. Your description says nothing about his knowledge of Chinese medical theory, pattern diagnosis, or anything else. There are no examples of his prescriptions, his cases, or anything else. There may be a logic to his method, a tradition that he studied. . ..just like the physician you mentioned who was in the Zhang Zhi-he tradition of purgation.

 

I couldn't say if this was TCM. . . . .but certainly, CM.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you have any notes or copies of the old Dr's formulas (herbal or

acupuncture) to show as example?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

> In the hospital I worked there was an 80yr old Dr that practiced

some kind of

> family tradition. He saw 300 pt before lunch time (8am-12). No body

was

> allowed to study with him (that is he does not allow anybody to

follow him

> for extended times), including the Chinese Dr in our hospital.

Unlike all

> the other family trained Dr in the hospital he was never forced to

go

> through additional formal training. I was able to spend 1 hr per

day with

> him. He never asks any questions of the patients. They just tell

him their

> main complaint, he takes their pulse for less than 5 seconds asks

to look

> at their tongue (but half the time did not raise his eyes to

actually look

> at the tongue) and then prescribe a formula of a minimum of 20

herbs (some

> as large as 40 herbs). The formulas did not make any sense at all.

From what

> I saw they never matched the tongue, they never made sense for the

chief

> complain. No body has any ide what he's doing. He had a great

reputation.

> The doctors I studied with said they tried, but could not, make any

sense

> after analyzing hundreds of formulas.

> Is this CM?

> alon

>