Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 If he looked at the pulse and tongue, he must have been doing some form of bian zheng, even if you couldn't follow his logic. otherwise, why bother? did he give the same rx to all patients with the same disease? If not, he must have been making differential assessment of patients. It may not be TCM, but its still bianzheng and I think that is what Zev was referring to.>>>>When taking the pulse he did not seem to really pay a lot of attention. he just laid his finger on one position w/out checking different depths. He only took the pulse on one side. Some one side sometimes the other ( I think depending were his pen and patient chart/little book was on the table). I was told that he basically used about 100 formulas and that nobody could make any sense of how and for what they were used alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 I strongly resent your dismissive attitude that somehow we shouldn't discuss the nuances of treatment and medical philsophy in order to seek out better ways to heal our patients, which is what we are studying this medicine for. You are too quick to use terms such as dogmatic, and harsh in your expression. >>>What I have a difficult time with is dismissing an apparently helpful use of Chinese herbal medicine because it does not jive with our OM believes. To me that is dogmatic. I certainly do not have any trouble with discussing or trying to improve on what seams to be a helpful formula alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 There may be a logic to his method, a tradition that he studied. . ..just like the physician you mentioned who was in the Zhang Zhi-he tradition of purgation >>>His methods have alluded the entire hospital, including my teacher who was the head of internal medicine in the hospital. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 Do you have any notes or copies of the old Dr's formulas (herbal or acupuncture) to show as example?>>>I will try do dig some up. It has been over 15 yr alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 I went to pulse seminar were Dr. Zhang wei yen (who saw 100's of patients a day in Taiwan) would walk around the room, feel pulses for 5-10 sec., sometimes ask a question or two, and prescribe these poly-formulas... (3-5 regular formulas in one).. The interesting thing was that it seemed very symptom based. For example, peptic ulcer (st and lv heat), duodenal ulcer (st and lv heat) & gastritis (st heat) would get [qing feng di lian tang+jia wei wu bei san + wu wei gu, zhe bai mu, bai ji] chronic nephritis (kid fire) (long dan xie gan tang + qing feng di lian tang + ba zheng san + shui ding xiang _ xian feng cao + ba wei di huang wan) He is very very successful, uses pulse, uses Chinese herbal formulas, and is differentiating the patient on some level .... IS this ? Interestingly my 1st examples located below this msg. were all taken straight from the jingui (golden chamber)---> it seems to me that in the classic texts there are many examples of "symptomatic" diagnosis/ tx, where the underlying condition or pattern diagnosis is not even mentioned... although, when discussing/analyzing the text/formula one will say, for example,"oh...the formula contains fu zi, there is interior cold/yang deficiency" etc.... extracting a pattern from the herb choice. is it possible that originally classic texts contained symptomatic treatment through herbs, not treating the root/whole picture...is this TCM? or did these authors not need to write the patterns, because they were understood? Is pattern differentiation a semi-modern creation? finally, I am actually quite amazed at the Western diagnostic system...can we say that our system is holistic and the western system is not(diagnostically)?especially in lieu of their newly found interconnectedness, that seems to have infiltrated the western system. For example pyschoneuroendroimmunilogy. (Which by the way, when we previously were talking about the endocrine level of the pulse, what does that mean? Western medicine is constantly redefining what endocrine actually means...) Their dx. system is amazing, sometimes containing a complete picture and sometimes not... can we use parts of the western diagnostic system in TCM framework? Why are we so hesitant? They do in China... correct? Why can't we mix? I'm not saying I am for or against this, and I personally like a complete pattern diagnosis... but I think there are many ways to go about this medicine... And some times, in my limited amount of study, it seems that western dx. is so much more complete and necessary... So who knows is PC-specs works, it might be amazing and might not make sense to your personal understanding of medicine. Why dismiss anything so fast? Yes it may contain foreign matter or not... until proven lets explore all possibilities especially since we CANNOT cure this disease, and maybe it helps 40% - and our system only helps 30%. Then we might be able to learn and apply some kind of new differential system and raise that number to 60%? Chinese medicine in the past has always changed, I am personally open to anything... but still very discriminate... -JAson Balalck alonmarcus [alonmarcus]Monday, October 30, 2000 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Re: PC-SPES If he looked at the pulse and tongue, he must have been doing some form of bian zheng, even if you couldn't follow his logic. otherwise, why bother? did he give the same rx to all patients with the same disease? If not, he must have been making differential assessment of patients. It may not be TCM, but its still bianzheng and I think that is what Zev was referring to.>>>>When taking the pulse he did not seem to really pay a lot of attention. he just laid his finger on one position w/out checking different depths. He only took the pulse on one side. Some one side sometimes the other ( I think depending were his pen and patient chart/little book was on the table). I was told that he basically used about 100 formulas and that nobody could make any sense of how and for what they were used alon on 10/29/00 10:00 PM, at wrote: > I am curious... if a patient comes in with a set of symptoms (i.e. abdominal > distention with constipation/ fullness) and then one prescribes lets say, > hou po, da huang, & zhi shi? is this TCM? This is pattern diagnosis, no? liu jing bian zheng/six channel pattern diagnosis. We would apply the Shang Han Lun criteria of yang ming bowel repletion, and then you could use those medicinals.. . . .although what you are describing is quite simplified. You would be more accurate if you felt for a sunken tense pulse, were more precise as to the abdominal diagnosis, and saw a yellow tongue coat. > Or someone who had acute arthritis - has an acute attack (li jie) with > paralysis of the extremities and pain in joints and is given fu zi, huang > qi, ma huang, bai shao, zhi gan cao?? This is more problematic. . . .without a more complete diagnosis, you run a risk in using such medicinals as fu zi. . .. if there are signs of repletion heat. > IS this TCM? If so, incomplete TCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.