Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 I don't think anyone mentioned this yet. My understanding is that one of the more common side-effects of this herbal formula is gynecomastia, possibly a worthwhile trade in exchange for a decrease in morbidity and mortality from prostate cancer. One would expect this response, I suppose, given that some of the herbs must act as phytoestrogens, probably binding on androgen receptor sites on the prostate. One wonders if there would be any loss of masculine secondary sex characteristics if taken over an extended period? There was a 20/20 or 48 hour news show on television that I caught part of that interviewed a physician/researcher who was investigating the use of PC-SPES using a double blind model. According to his comments, his lab was demonstrating clear efficacy of the formula. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what the show was or the date. I think I was at the gym, running on a treadmill, acting like a hamster, watching the news, so I had no opportunity to write down any of the information at the time. Jeff _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 on 10/30/00 6:47 AM, Jeff Gould at jeffgould wrote: > I don't think anyone mentioned this yet. > > My understanding is that one of the more common side-effects of this herbal > formula is gynecomastia, possibly a worthwhile trade in exchange for a > decrease in morbidity and mortality from prostate cancer. One would expect > this response, I suppose, given that some of the herbs must act as > phytoestrogens, probably binding on androgen receptor sites on the prostate. > One wonders if there would be any loss of masculine secondary sex > characteristics if taken over an extended period? Again, one has to wonder if the formula has any pharmaceuticals in it, and if it would work otherwise? Or if it is being taken by men either in combination with or after hormone therapy? One of the serious drawbacks of Lupron therapy is that, while it may slow down development of the prostate cancer, it also is a form of chemical castration. Often after discontinuing therapy, the cancer begins growing again much more rapidly than before. One wonders, again, if that would be the case with PC-SPECS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 on 10/30/00 8:43 AM, at wrote: I went to pulse seminar were Dr. Zhang wei yen (who saw 100's of patients a day in Taiwan) would walk around the room, feel pulses for 5-10 sec., sometimes ask a question or two, and prescribe these poly-formulas... (3-5 regular formulas in one).. The interesting thing was that it seemed very symptom based. For example, peptic ulcer (st and lv heat), duodenal ulcer (st and lv heat) & gastritis (st heat) would get [qing feng di lian tang+jia wei wu bei san + wu wei gu, zhe bai mu, bai ji] chronic nephritis (kid fire) (long dan xie gan tang + qing feng di lian tang + ba zheng san + shui ding xiang _ xian feng cao + ba wei di huang wan) He is very very successful, uses pulse, uses Chinese herbal formulas, and is differentiating the patient on some level .... IS this ? The critical key here is Dr Zhang's clinical experience. . . .he has obviously developed a system that works for him in his environment and with his patients, and a combination method of prescriptions as well. It is certainly not my place to criticize him or what he does. However, to teach pulses in this way may be difficult, because the average student needs, in my opinion, much more time to grasp the pulse of an individual patient. Also, it depends on the level of differentiation one wants to do. With some patients, I need much more time (i.e. with complex patterns), some less. It depends on the patient, how long I've seen them, and their problem(s). Yes, of course this is Chinese medicine. He is using pulse and pattern differentiation, just adapted for his clinical practice. Interestingly my 1st examples located below this msg. were all taken straight from the jingui (golden chamber)---> it seems to me that in the classic texts there are many examples of " symptomatic " diagnosis/ tx, where the underlying condition or pattern diagnosis is not even mentioned... although, when discussing/analyzing the text/formula one will say, for example, " oh...the formula contains fu zi, there is interior cold/yang deficiency " etc.... extracting a pattern from the herb choice. is it possible that originally classic texts contained symptomatic treatment through herbs, not treating the root/whole picture...is this TCM? or did these authors not need to write the patterns, because they were understood? Is pattern differentiation a semi-modern creation? It really depends on how strong or subtle the particular symptom or pattern is, and how complex, chronic it is, especially with transmuted patterns. And, yes, herb prescriptions match patterns, and sometimes that is all one needs to do. . . .you see a xiao chai hu tang patient, you give the prescription. finally, I am actually quite amazed at the Western diagnostic system...can we say that our system is holistic and the western system is not(diagnostically)?especially in lieu of their newly found interconnectedness, that seems to have infiltrated the western system. For example pyschoneuroendroimmunilogy. (Which by the way, when we previously were talking about the endocrine level of the pulse, what does that mean? Western medicine is constantly redefining what endocrine actually means...) Their dx. system is amazing, sometimes containing a complete picture and sometimes not... PNI is hardly what I would call mainstream biomedicine at this point. But, yes, it is fascinating, and there is a lot of interesting stuff going on there. This is why I am adamant that we all work together to study and practice Chinese medicine more in depth. Both are lifetime studies and dedications. can we use parts of the western diagnostic system in TCM framework? Why are we so hesitant? They do in China... correct? Why can't we mix? The problem seems to be doing it well. While, of course, I refer to biomedical data regularly, I am trying to do Chinese medicine well. I used to be much more eclectic, but now I want to deepen and broaden my CM knowledge more. I'm not saying I am for or against this, and I personally like a complete pattern diagnosis... but I think there are many ways to go about this medicine... And some times, in my limited amount of study, it seems that western dx. is so much more complete and necessary... Then you should perhaps study biomedicine more. Or consider a career in Western medicine. So who knows is PC-specs works, it might be amazing and might not make sense to your personal understanding of medicine. Why dismiss anything so fast? Yes it may contain foreign matter or not... until proven lets explore all possibilities especially since we CANNOT cure this disease, and maybe it helps 40% - and our system only helps 30%. Then we might be able to learn and apply some kind of new differential system and raise that number to 60%? Chinese medicine in the past has always changed, I am personally open to anything... but still very discriminate... I don't know if I agree with your statistics, Jason. And I know that iatrogenesis in Chinese medicine means poor diagnosis and treatment. And we don't know if the 'cure' from PC-SPECS is more than short-term. I also worry that there may be longer term discoveries about such formulas that are negative, and cast a negative light on our profession. Today's panacea is tomorrow's scandal. To use such prescriptions is to experiment with our patients' health. I personally don't want that responsibility if I cannot rely on the principles and data that already exist in Chinese medicine. -JAson Balalck alonmarcus [alonmarcus] Monday, October 30, 2000 7:38 AM Re: Re: PC-SPES If he looked at the pulse and tongue, he must have been doing some form of bian zheng, even if you couldn't follow his logic. otherwise, why bother? did he give the same rx to all patients with the same disease? If not, he must have been making differential assessment of patients. It may not be TCM, but its still bianzheng and I think that is what Zev was referring to. >>>>When taking the pulse he did not seem to really pay a lot of attention. he just laid his finger on one position w/out checking different depths. He only took the pulse on one side. Some one side sometimes the other ( I think depending were his pen and patient chart/little book was on the table). I was told that he basically used about 100 formulas and that nobody could make any sense of how and for what they were used alon on 10/29/00 10:00 PM, at wrote: > I am curious... if a patient comes in with a set of symptoms (i.e. abdominal > distention with constipation/ fullness) and then one prescribes lets say, > hou po, da huang, & zhi shi? is this TCM? This is pattern diagnosis, no? liu jing bian zheng/six channel pattern diagnosis. We would apply the Shang Han Lun criteria of yang ming bowel repletion, and then you could use those medicinals.. . . .although what you are describing is quite simplified. You would be more accurate if you felt for a sunken tense pulse, were more precise as to the abdominal diagnosis, and saw a yellow tongue coat. > Or someone who had acute arthritis - has an acute attack (li jie) with > paralysis of the extremities and pain in joints and is given fu zi, huang > qi, ma huang, bai shao, zhi gan cao?? This is more problematic. . . .without a more complete diagnosis, you run a risk in using such medicinals as fu zi. . .. if there are signs of repletion heat. > IS this TCM? If so, incomplete TCM. eGroups Sponsor Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 Zev wrote: " Again, one has to wonder if the formula has any pharmaceuticals in it, and if it would work otherwise? " Oridonine is a compound that was isolated from Robdosia rubescence as a pharmaceutical antitumor agent for the treatment of esophogeal cancer. I don't know if the isolated form is in the " herbal " product. Stephen [zrosenberg] Monday, October 30, 2000 12:37 PM Re: PC-SPES Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 My understanding is that one of the more common side-effects of this herbal formula is gynecomastia, possibly a worthwhile trade in exchange for a decrease in morbidity and mortality from prostate cancer >>I wander what can be added to it to avoid this affect w/out affecting efficacy alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 So who knows is PC-specs works, it might be amazing and might not make sense to your personal understanding of medicine. Why dismiss anything so fast? Yes it may contain foreign matter or not... until proven lets explore all possibilities especially since we CANNOT cure this disease, and maybe it helps 40% - and our system only helps 30%. Then we might be able to learn and apply some kind of new differential system and raise that number to 60%? Chinese medicine in the past has always changed, I am personally open to anything... but still very discriminate... >>>>My Point exactly. Also to say that western medicine does not use pattern discrimination is to totally miss-understand it. Is thyroid regulation a Yin Yang s/s complex and treatment? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 Again, one has to wonder if the formula has any pharmaceuticals in it, andif it would work otherwise? Or if it is being taken by men either incombination with or after hormone therapy?One of the serious drawbacks of Lupron therapy is that, while it may slowdown development of the prostate cancer, it also is a form of chemicalcastration. Often after discontinuing therapy, the cancer begins growingagain much more rapidly than before. One wonders, again, if that would bethe case with PC-SPECS.>>>>I also wander. Does anybody know if the formula was independently tested Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2000 Report Share Posted October 31, 2000 The formula has been analyzed at Rutgers and at a lab in California and both researchers have not found pharmaceuticals. However it probably has very high concentration phytosterols and isolates from the herbs. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " The unfortunate thing about this world is that the good habits are much easier to give up than the bad ones. " W. Somerset Maugham ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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