Guest guest Posted October 30, 2000 Report Share Posted October 30, 2000 I'm up for it. Doing this would actually be fun and very interesting. You're right of course, we should expect some divergence of opinion and perspectives. When I do clinical supervision at CSTCM, in Denver, I'm always amazed at how students think and come to their conclusions; it's like I never said anything in class. But patients get better anyway. And I'm sure it was same situation when I was the student: the look of fear in my teacher's eyes when I picked up needles for the first time and said, " Let me do a treatment. " In fact, it took him about 20 years to finally say (to someone else, not to me) that I was doing it correctly. But what would be more interesting is to find out how much our perpectives have in common and where they overlap. Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > (whether 12, 30 or 324) > >>>>I am willing to wager my home that no two people will agree on 1 patient 324 pulses are you? Lets do it > alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2000 Report Share Posted October 31, 2000 I'm up for it. Doing this would actually be fun and very interesting. You're right of course, we should expect some divergence of opinion and perspectives. When I do clinical supervision at CSTCM, in Denver, I'm always amazed at how students think and come to their conclusions; it's like I never said anything in class. But patients get better anyway. >>>That brings to question if it makes any difference. How would you like to set up the wager. Do you have 2 practitioners that are capable. I would have to choose the patient. To rule out any impropriety I will have the patient medical history as well as current complaints written out. Both of the practitioners must agree on the pulse as well as the patient history and condition. Is this expectable Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2000 Report Share Posted October 31, 2000 You can bring any of your patients either to my office (T, Th, F)or to the school in Denver (W and some Saturdays). We'll compare notes. Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I'm up for it. Doing this would actually be fun and very interesting. > You're right of course, we should expect some divergence of opinion > and perspectives. When I do clinical supervision at CSTCM, in Denver, > I'm always amazed at how students think and come to their > conclusions; it's like I never said anything in class. But patients > get better anyway. > >>>That brings to question if it makes any difference. > How would you like to set up the wager. Do you have 2 practitioners that are capable. I would have to choose the patient. To rule out any impropriety I will have the patient medical history as well as current complaints written out. Both of the practitioners must agree on the pulse as well as the patient history and condition. Is this expectable > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 You can bring any of your patients either to my office (T, Th, F)or to the school in Denver (W and some Saturdays). We'll compare notes. >>>That would be great on a personal level, as it would be nice to meet some of you guys (by the way I am going to be I the AAOM national meeting next week) but I think we would need to do this in a more formal setting. You see, I am so convinced that it is impossible for any two practitioners to be consistent on any physical examination procedure of this complexity that I am trying to make a point alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 You can bring any of your patients either to my office (T, Th, F)or to the school in Denver (W and some Saturdays). We'll compare notes. >>>That would be great on a personal level, as it would be nice to meet some of you guys (by the way I am going to be I the AAOM national meeting next week) but I think we would need to do this in a more formal setting. You see, I am so convinced that it is impossible for any two practitioners to be consistent on any physical examination procedure of this complexity that I am trying to make a point alon ---- Hi Alon, I'd say from experience that it is unusual, but not impossible. I studied pulse for several years with Leon Hammer. We would take a patient's pulse separately and make a separate record, and then compare our notes. Bear in mind that we typically recorded ~40 findings on each patient's pulse. I'd say we were in accord 95% of the time as to the major overall qualities, and perhaps >80% on the minor details; these differences were usually ones of personal style rather than disagreement, and we could usually reconcile the differences very easily when we compared notes. In the pulse seminars I teach, by the end of the weekend the participants are largely in agreement on the common qualities felt on individuals, eg xian, xi ruo, xu, shi, ... These groups are made up of people with experience ranging from zero to decades, and backgrounds in China, North America, and those trained only in biomedicine as well as those only in Chinese medicine. Whether this agreement would still be there one month later in another matter, but with consistent, persistent, training, and a strong commitment by the student, I believe consensus is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 I can appreciate your point. There are only several other persons in my pulse diagnosis system that I can even speak with because no one else put in the work. But now that I've been teaching for a little while, some of my students can at least follow when I point things out. That's why I always find it intriguing to discuss cases with older or advanced practitioners in other systems and with different skills. But don't you think that, at least within your own practice style, you and your students can converse and diagnosis simialrly? Or have you not had time to cultivate students because there hasn't been the opportunity or your work is too eclectic? Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > You can bring any of your patients either to my office (T, Th, F)or > to the school in Denver (W and some Saturdays). We'll compare notes. > > >>>That would be great on a personal level, as it would be nice to meet some of you guys (by the way I am going to be I the AAOM national meeting next week) but I think we would need to do this in a more formal setting. You see, I am so convinced that it is impossible for any two practitioners to be consistent on any physical examination procedure of this complexity that I am trying to make a point > alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 Rory, Are you currently teaching anywhere in the northeast? Ann Brameier In the pulse seminars I teach, by the end of the weekend the participants are largely in agreement on the common qualities felt on individuals, eg xian, xi ruo, xu, shi, ... These groups are made up of people with experience ranging from zero to decades, and backgrounds in China, North America, and those trained only in biomedicine as well as those only in Chinese medicine. Whether this agreement would still be there one month later in another matter, but with consistent, persistent, training, and a strong commitment by the student, I believe consensus is possible.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2000 Report Share Posted November 3, 2000 I'd say from experience that it is unusual, but not impossible. I studied pulse for several years with Leon Hammer. We would take a patient's pulse separately and make a separate record, and then compare our notes. Bear in mind that we typically recorded ~40 findings on each patient's pulse. I'd say we were in accord 95% of the time as to the major overall qualities, and perhaps >80% on the minor details; these differences were usually ones of personal style rather than disagreement, and we could usually reconcile the differences very easily when we compared notes. >>>>Hi Rory I did not know you were on line. I heard this but I would really like to see this done on sick patients in a true blind fashion. If you have some time for lunch to talk about this let me know alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2000 Report Share Posted November 3, 2000 But don't you think that, at least within your own practice style, you and your students can converse and diagnosis simialrly? Or have you not had time to cultivate students because there hasn't been the opportunity or your work is too eclectic?>>>>Absolutely. But we always need to keep things in perspective and be careful of drawing conclusion. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2000 Report Share Posted November 3, 2000 >Rory, >Are you currently teaching anywhere in the northeast? >Ann Brameier > -- NESA, every few months or so. Next probably in June. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2000 Report Share Posted November 3, 2000 Alon Marcus wrote: >>>>Hi Rory I did not know you were on line. I heard this but I would really like to see this done on sick patients in a true blind fashion. If you have some time for lunch to talk about this let me know alon ---- Sounds good. I'll have my people call your people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 Bensky refers to specific positional weakness in th eChi position under Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. Specific classical referances to the use of herbs for balancing pulse confirmations are not aplenty, however, there are ample lineages currently flourishing that render such specific strategies. One example from my experience and heavily influenced by ten years in the Shen/Hammer system is a slippery pulse found on both sides in the Guan position. This speaks to a process of Dampness collecting in the middle burner that must be confirmed through corroborating signs and symptoms.....if so....it can be treated with reasonable confidence. If this finding is only on the right Guan, the first and most likely issue I am considering is food stagnation. If it is in the right Guan, food stagnation is ceratainly not my consideration. This demonstrates fundamental logical assumptions that must drive clinicl thinking and construction of treatment plans. Will Morris Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 Will, see if there is a wrap around box for your text. The last message came through in my office and ended up on the far side of my bedroom. Will wrote: If this finding is only on the right Guan, the first and most likely issue I am considering is food stagnation. If it is in the right Guan, food stagnation is ceratainly not my consideration. Will, it can't be food stagnation or the pulse doesn't confirm it? doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2000 Report Share Posted November 5, 2000 > > Will [will] > Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:53 PM > > Re: Herbal pulses and Tx > > > One example from my experience and heavily influenced by ten > years in the Shen/Hammer system is a slippery pulse found on both > sides in the Guan position. This speaks to a process of Dampness > collecting in the middle burner that must be confirmed through > corroborating signs and symptoms.....if so....it can be treated > with reasonable confidence. If this finding is only on the right > Guan, the first and most likely issue I am considering is food > stagnation. If it is in the right Guan, food stagnation is > ceratainly not my consideration. latter = left guan? or both left and right guan? This demonstrates fundamental > logical assumptions that must drive clinicl thinking and > construction of treatment plans. > > Will Morris > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2000 Report Share Posted November 5, 2000 This demonstrates fundamental > logical assumptions that must drive clinicl thinking and > construction of treatment plans.>>>>>>>>>>>>and if the pulse is different and Bo He wan is still helpful is it not food stag alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2000 Report Share Posted November 6, 2000 Sounds good. I'll have my people call your people. >>>My new number is 452-5034 alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.