GB removal...

[Guest guest]

I inquired about this previously, but wanted to ask again... What is the

success of Chinese herbs in preventing gall-bladder removal (once attacks

have occurred, and surgery is 'supposedly warranted')... Also does anyone

have any good resources for the pro's & con's for GB removal, from a western

and TCM perspective.

 

-

[Guest guest]

I don't know about the success of preventing GB removal. My Ac missed my

nearly asymptomatic gall bladder disease, as did my MD and both were seen

a few days before the operation for other matters. I had done a

prophylaptic gall bladder protocol- Planetary's Stone Free- for a month

during the year prior (based solely on demographic succeptibility).

 

The advantages? The end of the most excruciating short-term pain,

vomiting and diarrhea that I had ever experienced. (Couldn't keep water

down and it was clear to me exactly where the blockage was.) Removal of

a gangrenous organ- I am suprised that that hadn't shown up in the

pulses.

 

Disadvantages- impaired fat metabolism. More loose stools, especially

after meals with much quantity or fat. (Maybe that's an advantage!)

Same Spleen qi xu, Kidney issues as before. Haven't noticed any more or

less Liver sx.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

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easier to give up than the bad ones. " W. Somerset Maugham

 

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[Guest guest]

, Karen S Vaughan <

creationsgarden@j...> wrote:

 

> Disadvantages- impaired fat metabolism. More loose stools, especially

> after meals with much quantity or fat. (Maybe that's an advantage!)

> Same Spleen qi xu, Kidney issues as before. Haven't noticed any more or

> less Liver sx.

>

 

I think one would definitely want to avoid GB removal. However, in

Karen's case, it seems like it was too late. However, acute

cholecystitis can be treated with herbs effectively. Stones are more

difficult to deal with, but a combination of herbs like ji nei jin, da

huang, jin qian cao and jin sha teng can sometimes work. However the

da huang is crucial and patient can expect diarrhea in the process.

Its not TCM, but allopathy. And the doses must be upper end of the

range for the herbs. After the acute is resolved in a few days,

continue with a modified rx that addresses the entire patient. I have

never seen patents work for this condition and most patients are too

far gone by the time they present. Also, one can never be sure it was

the herbs that did the trick unless you have before and after

ultrasound. A last word about this approach. In an paper by Nigel

Wiseman I read this weekend, he notes that allopathic disease treatment

is well represented in the classical chinese literature. Our bias

towards holistic organ and channel balancing is only one part of the

tradition and allopathy has its respected place.

 

[Guest guest]

>At 5:20 AM +0000 11/13/00, wrote:

>>In an paper by Nigel

>>Wiseman I read this weekend, he notes that allopathic disease treatment

>>is well represented in the classical chinese literature. Our bias

>>towards holistic organ and channel balancing is only one part of the

>>tradition and allopathy has its respected place.

----

 

This is news? Don't you think Chinese herb treatment relies heavily

on the allopathic principle, whether pattern identification is used

or not?

[Guest guest]

on 11/13/00 8:48 AM, Rory Kerr at rorykerr wrote:

 

>

>> At 5:20 AM +0000 11/13/00, wrote:

>>> In an paper by Nigel

>>> Wiseman I read this weekend, he notes that allopathic disease treatment

>>> is well represented in the classical chinese literature. Our bias

>>> towards holistic organ and channel balancing is only one part of the

>>> tradition and allopathy has its respected place.

> ----

>

> This is news? Don't you think Chinese herb treatment relies heavily

> on the allopathic principle, whether pattern identification is used

> or not?

>

My understanding that " employing toxic medicinals to treat disease toxin " is

the limit of allopathic ideas in Chinese medical treatment. And this method

is used in a very limited fashion. Unless you consider the Nei Jing

statement of fact " if cold, warm it, if warm, cool it " allopathic. The

idea of purely symptomatic treatment may appear so on the surface, as in

using da huang for gall bladder disease, but on examination you will see

that the presentation has to match a repletion heat pattern. You wouldn't

use da huang prescriptions in a vacuity cold/damp gall bladder pattern, and

if you did, the results wouldn't be good. The idea of iatrogenesis is still

considered bad medicine in Chinese medicine.

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 9:53 AM -0800 11/13/00, wrote:

>>My understanding that " employing toxic medicinals to treat disease toxin " is

>>the limit of allopathic ideas in Chinese medical treatment. And this method

>>is used in a very limited fashion. Unless you consider the Nei Jing

>>statement of fact " if cold, warm it, if warm, cool it " allopathic.

--

I'd say such a statement conforms with the allopathic principle, at

least as I understand it.

 

>>The idea of purely symptomatic treatment may appear so on the surface, as in

>>using da huang for gall bladder disease, but on examination you will see

>>that the presentation has to match a repletion heat pattern. You wouldn't

>>use da huang prescriptions in a vacuity cold/damp gall bladder pattern, and

>>if you did, the results wouldn't be good.

--

Right, but da huang as a treatment for a cold damp pattern doesn't

conform to the allopathic principle. If its given for a repletion

heat pattern it does. As I understand, the notion of allopathy does

not have to do with treating symptoms, but with treating in a way

that opposes the pathogen or disease process. So an antibiotic is

given for strep not because of the symptom of sore throat, but

because the antibiotic counteracts the bacteria causing the

infection. Couldn't you say that the identification of S pyogenes is

something like pattern identification? Perhaps I'm wrong about this.

 

 

>> The idea of iatrogenesis is still

>>considered bad medicine in Chinese medicine.

---

 

Is tolerance of iatrogenesis a necessary part of allopathy, or is it

more related to the culture of Western medicine?

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

> My understanding that " employing toxic medicinals to treat disease toxin " is

> the limit of allopathic ideas in Chinese medical treatment.

 

I look at it this way. Allopathy is defined as a method of treating

disease with remedies that produce effects different from those caused

by the disease itself. Often times, that would be the opposite thing.

With this definition I think that TCM allopathic medicine.

 

We treat cold with hot, heat with cold, stagnation with activators and

deficiencies with tonification.

 

Employing toxic materials to treat toxins is more homeopathic I think.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

> Employing toxic materials to treat toxins is more homeopathic I think.

 

Al,

The wild card with this is that both allopathic and homeopathic medicine

use toxic medicinals to treat disease toxin, at least some of the time.

Modern chemotherapy (not just in cancer treatment, but in using chemical

agents as medicines) began with Paul Erlich's use of chemical dyes to kill

bacteria. Homeopathic medicine, which uses succussed and triturated

medicinal substances, does not use physical doses to cure disease. The

principle of the simillimum, using a medicinal substance that produces

diseases symptoms ('drug disease') that matches the disease being treated

after dilution, succussion and trituration is the basis of the system.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

" if cold, warm it, if warm, cool it " allopathic.

> --

> I'd say such a statement conforms with the allopathic principle, at

> least as I understand it....As I understand, the notion of allopathy does not

have to do with treating symptoms, but with treating in a way

> that opposes the pathogen or disease process. So an antibiotic is

> given for strep not because of the symptom of sore throat, but

> because the antibiotic counteracts the bacteria causing the

> infection. Couldn't you say that the identification of S pyogenes is

> something like pattern identification?

 

Rory

 

I guess it depends how you define allopathic. Allopathy was actually

coined by hahnemann according to my oxford dictionary. It actually

refers to any approach other than homeopathy. I think the term

heteropathy or antipathy more closely defines the general rule in TCM,

which is treating with opposites. Killing a bacteria is not the same

as clearing heat, as one is disease oriented and the other is still

pattern based. So allopathy may address " root " causes in its own

context, but I wouldn't call those roots patterns or syndromes (zheng).

they seem to conform more to the chinese term bing (disease). Even if

one identifies a given bacteria, pattern based TCM would still go a

step further to determine whether one should treat windheat, wind cold,

taiyang, shaoyang, yang ming, etc. Many herbs in all these formulae

have antibacterial properties, so patterns must be of a different

quality than merely the disease they include.

>

Zev wrote,

 

You wouldn't use da huang prescriptions in a vacuity cold/damp gall

bladder pattern, and if you did, the results wouldn't be good.

 

z'ev

 

actually it was my point that one might use a method to avoid GB

removal that actually ignores pattern dx (and this was certainly

wiseman's point, as well; he was clearly distinguishing a pure bian

zheng approach from a narrow bian bing method without any

differentiation at all; he said both are represented in chinese medical

literature and he used the term allopathy to describe the latter). If

the patient is looking at permanent removal of an organ involved in

digestion, I think short term herbal iatrogenesis beats the hell out of

permanent surgical iatrogenesis.

 

While I have limited access to the chinese literature, clinical

abstracts from china show a very good success rate with da huang in GB

disease, regardless of pattern (reported by ITM). so the results are

actually quite good. I also need to point out that most of the

research from china has been very successful and almost always disease

oriented, not pattern oriented. So allopathic methods can yield short

term benefit in many cases. Perhaps bian zheng would be better in

these cases, but that is purely speculation. Recent evidence by alain

bensoousan on IBS sems to confirm this with allopathic style herbal

treatment show to be MORE effective in the short term and bian zheng

style more effective in the long term.

 

see http://www.wholehealthmd.com/news/viewarticle/0,1513,675,00.html

 

Short term allopathic iatrogenesis can easily be remedied. Trying to

save a GB using an untested bian zheng approach when a relatively safe

bian bing approach has very high success rates does not seem warranted.

Similarly, I would rather risk antibiotic iatrogenesis if my child

spiked a 107 fever with meningitis rather than screw around trying to

nail the pattern. Allopathy has its place, especially when surgery or

death is the alternative.

 

[Guest guest]

I don't know of before and after ultrasound for Chinese herbal tx for

gallstones- perhaps there is something in the untranslated literature.

 

I do know that ultrasound has confirmed removal of gallstones in a number

of cases of western olive oil and lemon juice gall bladder flushes

(preferably preceeded by gallstone softening tx- radishes, raw apple

juice and sometimes Epsom salts.)

 

I vote with preventative tx, but you should know that the disease can be

apparently asymptomatic. (I can retrospectively think of only three

cases of indigestion over as many years which would have been

attributable to cholecystitis-but I attributed them to food poisoning at

the time.) Look for sx in people over 40 with lower burner heat

accumulations.

 

Weisman says that stone strangury can be treated with du sheng san, jin

qian cao, jin nei jin and dong kui zi.

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" The unfortunate thing about this world is that the good habits are much

easier to give up than the bad ones. " W. Somerset Maugham

 

______________

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[Guest guest]

on 11/13/00 9:14 PM, at wrote:

 

> , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

>

> " if cold, warm it, if warm, cool it " allopathic.

>> --

>> I'd say such a statement conforms with the allopathic principle, at

>> least as I understand it....As I understand, the notion of allopathy does not

>> have to do with treating symptoms, but with treating in a way

>> that opposes the pathogen or disease process. So an antibiotic is

>> given for strep not because of the symptom of sore throat, but

>> because the antibiotic counteracts the bacteria causing the

>> infection. Couldn't you say that the identification of S pyogenes is

>> something like pattern identification?

>

> Rory

>

> I guess it depends how you define allopathic. Allopathy was actually

> coined by hahnemann according to my oxford dictionary. It actually

> refers to any approach other than homeopathy. I think the term

> heteropathy or antipathy more closely defines the general rule in TCM,

> which is treating with opposites. Killing a bacteria is not the same

> as clearing heat, as one is disease oriented and the other is still

> pattern based. So allopathy may address " root " causes in its own

> context, but I wouldn't call those roots patterns or syndromes (zheng).

> they seem to conform more to the chinese term bing (disease). Even if

> one identifies a given bacteria, pattern based TCM would still go a

> step further to determine whether one should treat windheat, wind cold,

> taiyang, shaoyang, yang ming, etc. Many herbs in all these formulae

> have antibacterial properties, so patterns must be of a different

> quality than merely the disease they include.

 

 

Very well stated, Todd. I agree 100 % with all you've stated here.

>>

> Zev wrote,

>

> You wouldn't use da huang prescriptions in a vacuity cold/damp gall

> bladder pattern, and if you did, the results wouldn't be good.

>

> z'ev

>

> actually it was my point that one might use a method to avoid GB

> removal that actually ignores pattern dx (and this was certainly

> wiseman's point, as well; he was clearly distinguishing a pure bian

> zheng approach from a narrow bian bing method without any

> differentiation at all; he said both are represented in chinese medical

> literature and he used the term allopathy to describe the latter). If

> the patient is looking at permanent removal of an organ involved in

> digestion, I think short term herbal iatrogenesis beats the hell out of

> permanent surgical iatrogenesis.

 

(Z'ev) Can you find me that reference in Wiseman? My point here, is that,

even if one used a medicinal like da huang, the TCM physician should use

other medicinals to off-set spleen vacuity damp cold (perhaps gan jiang, fu

ling and/or cang zhu) to make a more balanced prescription for the

particular patient, rather than ramming through da chai hu tang or da cheng

qi tang to a tai yin vacuity patient. . . .doing so would violate the core

principles of the Shang Han Lun, and, in principle, dilute therapeutic

efficacy.

>

> While I have limited access to the chinese literature, clinical

> abstracts from china show a very good success rate with da huang in GB

> disease, regardless of pattern (reported by ITM). so the results are

> actually quite good. I also need to point out that most of the

> research from china has been very successful and almost always disease

> oriented, not pattern oriented. So allopathic methods can yield short

> term benefit in many cases. Perhaps bian zheng would be better in

> these cases, but that is purely speculation. Recent evidence by alain

> bensoousan on IBS sems to confirm this with allopathic style herbal

> treatment show to be MORE effective in the short term and bian zheng

> style more effective in the long term.

 

(Z'ev) I'd be careful with this stuff. IBS is a fairly complex disease,

with many patterns and combination patterns. We shouldn't oversimplify.

Certainly, there are root and branch treatments for any bing/disease. One

can treat the branch intelligently, with appropriate medicinals combined

effectively, without just ramming through a poorly thought through

treatment.

 

I am aware of one study done at a Shanghai hospital using da cheng qi tang

for acute appendicitis, with an 80% success rate (meaning no surgery!), but

this is a disease that almost always has repletion heat and/or damp heat in

the large intestine. Results also depend on the nature of the disease. IBS

has much more variation than acute appendicitis.

 

 

>

> Short term allopathic iatrogenesis can easily be remedied. Trying to

> save a GB using an untested bian zheng approach when a relatively safe

> bian bing approach has very high success rates does not seem warranted.

> Similarly, I would rather risk antibiotic iatrogenesis if my child

> spiked a 107 fever with meningitis rather than screw around trying to

> nail the pattern. Allopathy has its place, especially when surgery or

> death is the alternative.

>

(Z'ev) There is no question that short-term allopathic iatrogenesis can be

remedied. However, in that short moment that involves the judgement of the

physician, the right choice of medicinals is crucial. Even in an acute

disease crisis, one must choose the right medicinals to match the symptoms.

According to our classical physician teachers, not doing so can lead to

death at worst, complications, or not alleviating the disease. I will

continue to follow these methods to the best of my ability, or refer out

those conditions beyond my calling.

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 5:14 AM +0000 11/14/00, wrote:

>>I guess it depends how you define allopathic. Allopathy was actually

>>coined by hahnemann according to my oxford dictionary. It actually

>>refers to any approach other than homeopathy.

---

In that case, by hahnemann's definition CM is allopathic; but if so,

it is really too broad a definition to have meaning. What was

wiseman's point in his presentation?

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> At 5:14 AM +0000 11/14/00, wrote:

> >>I guess it depends how you define allopathic. Allopathy was actually

> >>coined by hahnemann according to my oxford dictionary. It actually

> >>refers to any approach other than homeopathy.

> ---

> In that case, by hahnemann's definition CM is allopathic; but if so,

> it is really too broad a definition to have meaning. What was

> wiseman's point in his presentation?

 

that we in the west have chosen to latch onto the holistic aspect of CM

for purely social and cultural reasons, when there is ample " classical "

literature to support an allopathic approach, as well.

 

todd

[Guest guest]

> , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

>> At 5:14 AM +0000 11/14/00, wrote:

>> >>I guess it depends how you define allopathic. Allopathy was actually

>> >>coined by hahnemann according to my oxford dictionary. It actually

>> >>refers to any approach other than homeopathy.

>> ---

>> In that case, by hahnemann's definition CM is allopathic; but if so,

>> it is really too broad a definition to have meaning. What was

>> wiseman's point in his presentation?

>--- wrote:

>that we in the west have chosen to latch onto the holistic aspect of CM

>for purely social and cultural reasons, when there is ample " classical "

>literature to support an allopathic approach, as well.

 

---

I guess I'm confused by Wiseman's use of the term allopathic in this

context. You say that Allopathy, as defined by Hahnemann, means any

system of medicine that is not homeopathy. By this definition,

Chinese medicine is allopathy, since it is obviously not homeopathy.

If Wisemann says Chinese medicine is more allopathic than we think,

then he is doing no more than pointing out the obvious, whether we

use Hahnemann's definition, or the one I offered that it means

treatment by opposing function. Our preference for holism does not

preclude the use of opposing treatment; neither does the use of

opposing function preempt holism. Holism is a overriding view within

which we can include a wide range of actions, or treatments,

including surgery, pharmaceutical treatment, as well as any aspect of

Chinese medicine. In other words, Wiseman's assertion that allopathic

treatment choices is evidence that Chinese medicine includes

non-holistic views doesn't hold up. Of course, it still may be true

that CM is not by definition holistic, but I find his use of the term

allopathic confuses the issue.

[Guest guest]

I inquired about this previously, but wanted to ask again... What is thesuccess of Chinese herbs in preventing gall-bladder removal (once attackshave occurred, and surgery is 'supposedly warranted')... Also does anyonehave any good resources for the pro's & con's for GB removal, from a westernand TCM perspective.>>>>You can get some information from my blue poppy book acute abdominal disorders. The size and number of stones makes the difference

alon

[Guest guest]

I don't know about the success of preventing GB removal. My Ac missed mynearly asymptomatic gall bladder disease, as did my MD and both were seena few days before the operation for other matters

>>>>>I have seen many of these in China. They were often picked up by a good physical and than ultra sound (we had one exceptional surgeon in the TCM surgical department. He used both TCM and surgery).

alon

alon

[Guest guest]

Killing a bacteria is not the same as clearing heat, as one is disease oriented and the other is still pattern based. So allopathic may address "root" causes in its own context, but I wouldn't call those roots patterns or syndromes (zheng). they seem to conform more to the chinese term bing (disease). Even if one identifies a given bacteria, pattern based TCM would still go a step further to determine whether one should treat windheat, wind cold, taiyang, shaoyang, yang ming, etc.

>>>But so does good biomedical medicine. One need to identify the type of system affected, what is the coverage of a particular therapy, which route would be appropriate etc. This is done by both S/S and laboratory. Unfortunately too many MD rely on technology only.That is not good medicine.

alon

[Guest guest]

I do know that ultrasound has confirmed removal of gallstones in a numberof cases of western olive oil and lemon juice gall bladder flushes(preferably preceeded by gallstone softening tx- radishes, raw applejuice and sometimes Epsom salts.)>>>>You must first know the size of stone as well as condition of the ducts

alon

[Guest guest]

Actually in the surgical department they often use Da Huang for cold type Gall stones together with other herbs, as Da Huang is considered very important for GB disease of any kind (at least so schools)

alon