Seasonal Changes, Pulses, and Herbal Formulas

[Guest guest]

Although this was written as a response to another eGroup (see

original message below), it raises some questions that I hope

practitioners in this group will also answer.

 

 

I found your treatment strategy of combining these two formulas very

interesting because we have been successfully using a similar herbal

strategy for a few years now. It seems particularly appropriate this

year because it is a Metal Excessive year---dryness as the primary

influence and heat as secondary (SW, Chap 70). This Su Wen pattern

seems to still reliably dictate how the overall pattern of things

will develop. The dryness during the course of this year (all the

more prevalent since I'm in Colorado) requires the body to create a

stronger mucus response. In Fall, when the seasonal energy changes

and the colds and flu set in, there has already been dampness or

phlegm in people's lungs as often evidenced by mild but chronic

unproductive coughing---even before flu symptoms develop. Patients

without the flu often show evidence in the pulses of some dampness or

phlegm in their lungs. The Liu Wei Di Huang, as you state, is

effective in moving the Yin Qiao formula deeper. And, I would add, at

making the formula more effective in helping to moisture any dry

phlegm, rebuild yin, and balancing out the heat (both latent and the

energetic seasonal movement).

 

Over the past decade, I've been watching the changes in the pulses

during the Fall cold and flu seasons. About a decade ago (when I was

still in Chicago), most activity was superficial and could easily be

resolved by exterior-type formulas. Over the years, the pulse picture

looked deeper and deeper until several years back it was almost

similar to asthma in many cases.

 

Have you been keeping track of the different pulse pictures from year

to year, and changed your herbal strategy accordingly?

 

Has anyone else been keeping track of the Su Wen (chapters 66-71)

patterns?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

(from Pulse Diagnosis Group)

Back to latent heat again.....I have found very simple treatments

such as combining patents of Yin Qao San in proper proportion with

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan to effectively guide the Wind Heat dispelling

properties of Yin Qiao San to the interior. The evidence of the

appropriateness of such treatment is in the positive clinical

outcomes I have been observing. This particular strategy is reserved

for situations requiring a patent approach for one reason or another.

Another patent combination that seems to work well is Dao Chi San and

Yin Qiao San, or even prescribing mint tea in conjunction with

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan.

 

Let me know about thoughts or findings on this.....Will

[Guest guest]

The dryness during the course of this year (all the more prevalent since I'm in Colorado) requires the body to create a stronger mucus response.

>>>What is this?

alon

[Guest guest]

According to the Chinese calendar, 2000 is a metal excessive/yang

ming dominant year. So dryness is the predominant influence for the

first half of the year and Shaoyin/heat is the secondary ruling

influence (Su Wen, chapter 70). The body responds to prolonged

dryness by increasing mucus production and the movement of water from

kidney to lung in order to prevent lung tissue from being dried out

and more generally to help yin from becoming exhausted. All this

follows the classical 5-Element revenge cycle for the year.

 

So, beside the usual seasonal changes in the pulses (e.g., floating

in summer or sinking in winter), I'm asking how many other

practitioners track the yearly energies, seasonal energies, or

(monthly or daily) stems and branches through the pulses. And, if

they do, whether practitioners who make up general herbal formulas

(instead of an individual formula for each client) modify them

according to those changes.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> The dryness during the course of this year (all the

> more prevalent since I'm in Colorado) requires the body to create a

> stronger mucus response.

> >>>What is this?

> alon

[Guest guest]

). The body responds to prolonged dryness by increasing mucus production and the movement of water from kidney to lung in order to prevent lung tissue from being dried out and more generally to help yin from becoming exhausted.

>>>So the symptoms of autumn dryness are productive cough?

alon

[Guest guest]

on 11/22/00 7:21 PM, James Ramholz at OMJournal wrote:

 

 

>

> I found your treatment strategy of combining these two formulas very

> interesting because we have been successfully using a similar herbal

> strategy for a few years now. It seems particularly appropriate this

> year because it is a Metal Excessive year---dryness as the primary

> influence and heat as secondary (SW, Chap 70). This Su Wen pattern

> seems to still reliably dictate how the overall pattern of things

> will develop. The dryness during the course of this year (all the

> more prevalent since I'm in Colorado) requires the body to create a

> stronger mucus response. In Fall, when the seasonal energy changes

> and the colds and flu set in, there has already been dampness or

> phlegm in people's lungs as often evidenced by mild but chronic

> unproductive coughing---even before flu symptoms develop. Patients

> without the flu often show evidence in the pulses of some dampness or

> phlegm in their lungs. The Liu Wei Di Huang, as you state, is

> effective in moving the Yin Qiao formula deeper. And, I would add, at

> making the formula more effective in helping to moisture any dry

> phlegm, rebuild yin, and balancing out the heat (both latent and the

> energetic seasonal movement).

 

Donn Hayes of the Oriental Herb Company designed a prescription that does

just that. It combines shu di huang and dang gui with yin qiao to nourish

yin and clear wind warmth. This strategy also goes back to the work of Liu

Bao-yi, who is a main source of material on fu qi wen bing/latent (hidden)

qi warm disease.

 

 

>

> Over the past decade, I've been watching the changes in the pulses

> during the Fall cold and flu seasons. About a decade ago (when I was

> still in Chicago), most activity was superficial and could easily be

> resolved by exterior-type formulas. Over the years, the pulse picture

> looked deeper and deeper until several years back it was almost

> similar to asthma in many cases.

>

> Have you been keeping track of the different pulse pictures from year

> to year, and changed your herbal strategy accordingly?

>

> Has anyone else been keeping track of the Su Wen (chapters 66-71)

> patterns?

 

For years, I have been studying the Wang Bing chapters of the Su Wen,

although in translations which may be less than reliable. I will wait for

the Unschuld translation before I consider a translation reliable, I think.

The difficulty of the Chinese in these sections will probably make it a few

more years before I am able to read it out in Chinese.

 

I have tried to absorb the information on wu yun liu qi/five periods six qi

in these sections by reading them over and over.. . .they are difficult, but

they are sinking in as I observe seasonal changes in my practice, as per

symptoms, pulse pictures, and trends in disease patterns. (By the way,

Unschuld's '' has an excellent chapter on five periods/six

qi theory). I also use the 'open points' calendar in my practice, focusing

more on the 24 hr clock and extraordinary vessel aspects.

 

I feel the theory is intrinsically true, but because of my lack of

mathematical skill, I do not have the tools to test the accuracy of the

astonomical calculations that were used to design the Chinese calendrical

predictions. I don't know if changes in the last 2000 years have affected

the flow of the calendar, or if seasonal variances in such areas as southern

California (whose climate doesn't exist in China) can be considered with the

seasonal issues you note. I hope this will be investigated, and I

understand in China that these methods are being used, tested and practiced

at the present time.

 

I definately see the seasonal changes in pulses and symptom patterns, and

reflect them in my treatments. It is an ongoing study for me.

 

Finally, as Chip noted in an earlier post, I don't know if using cold

prescriptions such as yin qiao san in any modification is right a good part

of the time. Even in southern California, I use the gui zhi tang and xiao

chai hu tang families of prescriptions more at this time of year.

 

 

[Guest guest]

When reading the classics, view the processes abstractly---we have to

replant them in our own soil rather than try to be imitative. You

shouldn't consider a one-to-one linear response to the Chinese

calendar. Just as in Complexity Theory, in living systems you are

dealing with three levels interacting with each other at the same

time. Consider the Chinese calendar only as the initial conditions;

second, consider how it plays to local conditions (Guest/Host); and,

third, to the client's own symptoms or balance. Without a doubt it

can be applied to any environment, even southern California, when you

plug in all the variables correctly. It's always interesting to

figure out which cycle is the most significant at a particular time---

81 years, 9 years, annual, seasonal, daily, individual biorythym, etc.

 

Chip is, of course, correct; you can not apply a formula universally.

This conceit is actually the hallmark of Western medicine's failing.

There are always several times during the cold/flu season when this

occurs, and there always is the odd client. Because I consider myself

an acupuncturist first and herbalist second, I don't create a new

formula for each individual client. I feel there is better and

more control over the client's condition through acupuncture, and you

can see how successful your strategy is immediately from the pulses.

I modify their prescription by giving the client a second or third

formula. This approach has always been successful.

 

I've been experimenting with classical herbal formulas in several

different ways over the past few years. Generally for example, in

Korean herbology and in formulas attributed to Hua T'o there are

small and interesting modifications to amounts of ingredients even in

the same classical formulas. But after thinking about it from a 5-

Element perspective, I've been making formulas according to the

Fibonacci series of numbers since the Golden Mean is inherent to 5-

Elements (another point where Eastern and Western cultures are

underpinned by the same idea). Even straight classical formulas can

seem to be more efficacious when made according to this number

pattern.

 

And, I've been adding ingredients to formulas to study the effects of

longer Chinese formulas. For example, some interesting Shaolin

formulas are more than 40 ingredients. Many of my main formulas tend

to have a longer list of ingredients. My cold/flu formula now has

about 34 herbs in it; and my formula for muscular aches and pains

with some accompanying inflammation has 40 herbs.

 

Even with all the different ingredients, the effective dose is still

1-2 grams of concentrate TID. But I've found it very useful to have

immune-compromised clients take 2-4 gram doses for strong, acute

cold/flu every 2 hours. And I've taken them myself every hour with

very beneficial results.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

earlier Z'ev wrote:

I don't know if changes in the last 2000 years have affected

the flow of the calendar, or if seasonal variances in such areas as

southern

California (whose climate doesn't exist in China) can be considered

with the

seasonal issues you note. I hope this will be investigated, and I

understand in China that these methods are being used, tested and

practiced

at the present time.

 

Finally, as Chip noted in an earlier post, I don't know if using cold

prescriptions such as yin qiao san in any modification is right a

good part

of the time. Even in southern California, I use the gui zhi tang and

xiao

chai hu tang families of prescriptions more at this time of year.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

A nice way to adjust the " Elemental changes " of the year is to follow the

lessons from the ancient companion to the I Ching, the <Taixuan jing>

written by Yang Xiong (ca 53 BC - 18 AD)

 

translated by Michael Nylan, State university of New York Press, ISBN

0-7914-1628-3

 

If you need to work on a specific part of the Neijing, start by translating

the 2 Classical commentaries (Zhang Zhicong ang Ma Shi) (cf list #1 and

list #2), you will at least know more about the traditional interpretation.

 

My five cents,

 

Philippe

[Guest guest]

on 11/23/00 2:29 PM, Philip Riviere at riviere wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> A nice way to adjust the " Elemental changes " of the year is to follow the

> lessons from the ancient companion to the I Ching, the <Taixuan jing>

> written by Yang Xiong (ca 53 BC - 18 AD)

>

> translated by Michael Nylan, State university of New York Press, ISBN

> 0-7914-1628-3

>

> If you need to work on a specific part of the Neijing, start by translating

> the 2 Classical commentaries (Zhang Zhicong ang Ma Shi) (cf list #1 and

> list #2), you will at least know more about the traditional interpretation.

>

> My five cents,

>

> Philippe

>

>

Thank you so much, Phillippe.

 

 

[Guest guest]

on 11/23/00 1:40 PM, James Ramholz at OMJournal wrote:

 

> When reading the classics, view the processes abstractly---we have to

> replant them in our own soil rather than try to be imitative. You

> shouldn't consider a one-to-one linear response to the Chinese

> calendar. Just as in Complexity Theory, in living systems you are

> dealing with three levels interacting with each other at the same

> time. Consider the Chinese calendar only as the initial conditions;

> second, consider how it plays to local conditions (Guest/Host); and,

> third, to the client's own symptoms or balance. Without a doubt it

> can be applied to any environment, even southern California, when you

> plug in all the variables correctly. It's always interesting to

> figure out which cycle is the most significant at a particular time---

> 81 years, 9 years, annual, seasonal, daily, individual biorythym, etc.

 

Of course you are correct, Jim. And yes, I do view the processes

abstractly, at a conceptual level. My point is that it would be interesting

for someone with a more mathematical mind to tinker with the 'code', so to

speak, and make the underpinnings of the wu yun liu qi 'software' available

in a flexible manner, as you say, to replant in our own soil.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

> When reading the classics, view the processes abstractly---we have to

> replant them in our own soil rather than try to be imitative.

 

I want to challenge this statement. Not that I think it's inaccurate or

wrong, but that it speaks of one aspect of the study, interpretation and

application of Chinese classics and therefore invites or rather requires

a few additional remarks.

 

The term " classics " or even " classic " is open to interpretation. And

virtually any responsible view of the situation with respect to writings

on medicine throughout Chinese history allows that we are dealing with

a variety of approaches not only to the understanding and practice of

medicine but to the methods employed in the transmission of

such understandings for subsequent generations.

 

To get directly back to your point, there are times and circumstances when

it is important

to view these processes abstractly; and there are times and circumstances in

which it is

important to render concrete, palpable sense from what is written in various

texts. Of course, this gets directly to one important aspect of the

classics, namely

the traditions of intellectualism in which they came to be and through which

they

have been handed down to us in the present day.

 

In short, it has always been a requirement of scholars and doctors of

Chinese

medicine that they be able not only to read and understand what their

forbears

recorded but that they be able to interpret, indeed to create its meaning

and

applicability to themselves and their contemporaries in their own time and

place.

Moreover, those with the deepest grasp understood that it was not enough

for

their understanding to flourish among their contemporaries. They felt a

deep

sense of generational ethics in which pattern of thought the transmission

to

future generations ranks at more or less the same level of importance as

the

application of the material in contemporary clinical practice.

 

This reflects an even more fundamental value of traditional Chinese thought,

namely

the importance of longevity and endurance. Of course, if we're not careful

we

can wander fairly far afield of your original comment. To which I now

return.

 

Let's take Chapter 68 of the Nan Jing as an example. It's fresh in my mind

because

I was just teaching it in a class the other day. This is perhaps the

earliest classical reference for the

theory of Five Transporting Points. There is currently a characteristic

interpretation of this

theory among Chinese medical personnel I have encountered in the US over the

past

couple of years. I believe if you ask most people to define the terms and

fundamental

ideas of this theory, you will hear something akin to the following:

 

There are five points at the distal reaches of the twelve main channels

arranged in

a pattern that can be likened to the flow of water through the natural world

so that

the most distal is known as the Well point and there the qi moves like water

in a well.

Moving towards the trunk you find the Spring points where the qi moves like

water

flowing out of a spring. Then you come to the Stream points where the

movement of

qi has broadened and deepened and it now moves like water in a stream. Then

onto

the River points where this broadening and deepening of qi has now

progressed so that

it moves like the water in a wide river. Finally it reaches the Sea points

where it behaves

like water in the ocean, i.e. gathers together to its utmost capacity.

 

I'm sure I will be corrected if I have misstated it, but that is, at least,

my understanding

of the way that this particular classical theory of medicine is broadly

understood in these

parts these days. I suggest that this sort of rendition of theory comes

about, in part,

as a result of an approach to the classics that errs on the side of

abstraction and

loses some of the direct, concrete and literal meaning.

 

What I find particularly interesting is that on two separate days I

conducted discussions of this

theory with students in the class on the classics that I'm now teaching. On

the first

day we talked about it based upon their familiarity with it, how it had been

taught to

them, and so on. And as I said, the contents of this discussion are fairly

summarized

above.

 

The discussion was repeated the following week, but this time we had the

original text

in front of us along with a more or less literal translation. And you know

what?

 

It was an entirely different discussion. Now we found ourselves dealing with

a curiously

comprehensive statement of the relationship between the distal aspects of

the anatomy

and the physiology of the zang fu. Of particular note was the fact that the

understanding

and discussion based upon the literal sense of the text itself was far more

multi-dimensional

than the " water metaphor " currently in widespread use. The Nan Jing text,

though rather

brief, turns out to contain a great deal of information that can be directly

applied in both

diagnostics and therapeutics. The message for careful students is that if

you are

seeking concrete clinical guidance, you can do a lot worse than to turn to

the classics.

 

Of course, we've got to know what a classic is and how it functions before

we

can get anywhere near knowing when to approach material in an abstract way

and

when it should be literally intepreted. Nor do I mean to suggest that these

two

approaches are mutually exclusive. Indeed a deep appreciation of the

literary

traditions teaches us to accept both their subtle abstractions and their

concrete

or literal meanings.

 

And for the life of me I just cannot come to grips with how in the world

anybody

could ever dream of doing such study entirely in and with translated

materials alone.

 

The classics represent a lot of things, but among these things is the long

standing

tradition of recording the most efficacious ideas and methods. There is a

distinct

skill set involved in both the writing and reading of such records. Whereas

you are

quite right that these processes should be viewed abstractly, they should

also be

viewed in ways that may or may not even be known to exist by those who

undertake

to view them.

 

Lest people be left with the impression that whenever they read the classics

they must take this abstract point of view to the exclusion of others, I

thought

I would speak up.

 

We do indeed have to transplant them to our own soil. The first step of this

is coming to know them in some detail. Just as it would be foolish to expect

a good result from transplating even a hearty plant without knowing the

conditions of its growth and development, we cannot anticipate anything

but needless suffering if we fail to grasp the native context of the Chinese

medical classics.

 

In other words, before your advice to view the classics abstractly can be

responsibly followed, we're just going to have to develop among ourselves

a proper activity of scholarship devoted to this material that will provide

those who use it with enough data and, more importantly knowledge to

allow them to make such judgments for themselves.

 

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

There's nothing I would argue against in your thoughtful response.

Your approach is quite correct and important; it should form the core

of the teaching curriculum. I would enjoy (as I have your other

work), defer to, and heartily support your approach. The classics

should never be read abstractly to the exclusion of your way, or any

other way.

 

But . . . there's no reason to not read them abstractly now. Nor hold

back or limit an abstract discussion while waiting 20 years

to " determine what a classic is and how it functions. " I'm not

actually trying to argue the canonical way to read them; just an

interesting and clinically practical one. They've been through so

many hands, it would be hard if not impossible to arrive at an

authentic or orthodox translation and interpretation. Have the

Chinese themselves been able to accomplish this in 2500 years? I

suspect our future history with the classics will be as convoluted

and varied as their past history with the Chinese. I doubt that there

is one preferable way to reconstruct and interpret the classics, or

that their meaning (literal or symbolic) is essentially stable and

determinate and can be grasped in it's entirety. As I mentioned in an

earlier posting, I don't believe that the classics are the final

arbiter of what we can or should know. I would suggest that your

class's different reactions also demonstrates this point. A third

class might offer still another perspective. Inevitably, what we

bring to reading---not only as translators but as practitioners---

that determines their significance. And, I believe this " dialogue "

with the classics will necessarily be much different than the one the

Chinese had because the cultural and technological context is so

different.

 

Beginning when I was an English major in college, I attempted to

understand, appreciate, and entertain a wide variety of conflicting

perspectives (it was the 70s). Therefore, my personal choice would be

to read the classics (I will leave that definition up to you) as

Jacques Derrida would, to deconstruct them. Eastern culture is not

like the West in the sense of a logocentrist commitment to the idea

that words are capable of communicating unambiguous meanings that are

present in an individual's mind---at least on the Daoist side of the

aisle. Another reason for my abstract approach was that in many

classes with my Korean acupuncture teacher over twenty years ago, we

simply listened to him read from the original Chinese, interpret, and

then " correct " the classics. He thought he was the equal, if not the

better, of the authors and editors of the Nan Jing and Su Wen. I

didn't doubt he was back then, and I still don't doubt he is now.

 

But these are the reasons for only my personal choice, and not

necessarily one I would choose for students in a basic teaching

curriculum. There are persons, like yourself, better equipped and

much more interested in digging up the historical information.

 

When thinking of the classics abstractly in my posting, I

specifically had in mind the 5-Phase model, using it as a kind of

differential equation or applying it like a tool to any new clincial

situation to see what happens. My interest, ultimately, is in

applying everything to pulse diagnosis and, through that method, to

any clinical situation.

 

I do it for these few reasons but, admittedly, sometimes just to see

the look of delight and amazement (perhaps confusion) in my students

eyes, too.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

Ken Rose [cosmic.dragon]

Friday, November 24, 2000 4:04 PM

 

Re: Re: Seasonal Changes, Pulses, and

Herbal Formulas

 

 

Jim,

 

> When reading the classics, view the processes abstractly---we have

to

> replant them in our own soil rather than try to be imitative.

 

I want to challenge this statement. Not that I think it's inaccurate

or

wrong, but that it speaks of one aspect of the study, interpretation

and

application of Chinese classics and therefore invites or rather

requires

a few additional remarks.

 

The term " classics " or even " classic " is open to interpretation. And

virtually any responsible view of the situation with respect to

writings

on medicine throughout Chinese history allows that we are dealing with

a variety of approaches not only to the understanding and practice of

medicine but to the methods employed in the transmission of

such understandings for subsequent generations.

 

To get directly back to your point, there are times and circumstances

when

it is important to view these processes abstractly; and there are

times and circumstances in

which it is important to render concrete, palpable sense from what is

written in various

texts. Of course, this gets directly to one important aspect of the

classics, namely the traditions of intellectualism in which they came

to be and through which

they have been handed down to us in the present day.

 

In short, it has always been a requirement of scholars and doctors of

Chinese medicine that they be able not only to read and understand

what their forbears recorded but that they be able to interpret,

indeed to create its meaning and applicability to themselves and

their contemporaries in their own time and reover, those with the

deepest grasp understood that it was not enough for their

understanding to flourish among their contemporaries. They felt a

deep sense of generational ethics in which pattern of thought the

transmission

to future generations ranks at more or less the same level of

importance as the application of the material in contemporary

clinical practice.

 

This reflects an even more fundamental value of traditional Chinese

thought,

namely the importance of longevity and endurance. Of course, if we're

not careful

we can wander fairly far afield of your original comment. To which I

now

return.

 

Let's take Chapter 68 of the Nan Jing as an example. It's fresh in my

mind

because I was just teaching it in a class the other day. This is

perhaps the

earliest classical reference for the theory of Five Transporting

Points. There is currently a characteristic

interpretation of this theory among Chinese medical personnel I have

encountered in the US over the

past couple of years. I believe if you ask most people to define the

terms and

fundamental ideas of this theory, you will hear something akin to the

following:

 

There are five points at the distal reaches of the twelve main

channels

arranged in a pattern that can be likened to the flow of water

through the natural world

so that the most distal is known as the Well point and there the qi

moves like water

in a well. Moving towards the trunk you find the Spring points where

the qi moves like

water flowing out of a spring. Then you come to the Stream points

where the

movement of qi has broadened and deepened and it now moves like water

in a stream. Then

onto the River points where this broadening and deepening of qi has

now

progressed so that it moves like the water in a wide river. Finally

it reaches the Sea points

where it behaves like water in the ocean, i.e. gathers together to

its utmost capacity.

 

I'm sure I will be corrected if I have misstated it, but that is, at

least,

my understanding of the way that this particular classical theory of

medicine is broadly

understood in these parts these days. I suggest that this sort of

rendition of theory comes

about, in part, as a result of an approach to the classics that errs

on the side of

abstraction and loses some of the direct, concrete and literal

meaning.

 

What I find particularly interesting is that on two separate days I

conducted discussions of this theory with students in the class on

the classics that I'm now teaching. On

the first day we talked about it based upon their familiarity with

it, how it had been

taught to them, and so on. And as I said, the contents of this

discussion are fairly

summarized above.

 

The discussion was repeated the following week, but this time we had

the

original text in front of us along with a more or less literal

translation. And you know

what?

 

It was an entirely different discussion. Now we found ourselves

dealing with

a curiously comprehensive statement of the relationship between the

distal aspects of

the anatomy and the physiology of the zang fu. Of particular note was

the fact that the

understanding and discussion based upon the literal sense of the text

itself was far more

multi-dimensional than the " water metaphor " currently in widespread

use. The Nan Jing text,

though rather brief, turns out to contain a great deal of information

that can be directly

applied in both diagnostics and therapeutics. The message for careful

students is that if

you are seeking concrete clinical guidance, you can do a lot worse

than to turn to

the classics.

 

Of course, we've got to know what a classic is and how it functions

before

we can get anywhere near knowing when to approach material in an

abstract way

and when it should be literally intepreted. Nor do I mean to suggest

that these

two approaches are mutually exclusive. Indeed a deep appreciation of

the

literary traditions teaches us to accept both their subtle

abstractions and their

concrete or literal meanings.

 

And for the life of me I just cannot come to grips with how in the

world

anybody could ever dream of doing such study entirely in and with

translated

materials alone.

 

The classics represent a lot of things, but among these things is the

long

standing tradition of recording the most efficacious ideas and

methods. There is a

distinct skill set involved in both the writing and reading of such

records. Whereas

you are quite right that these processes should be viewed abstractly,

they should

also be viewed in ways that may or may not even be known to exist by

those who

undertake to view them.

 

Lest people be left with the impression that whenever they read the

classics

they must take this abstract point of view to the exclusion of

others, I

thought I would speak up.

 

We do indeed have to transplant them to our own soil. The first step

of this

is coming to know them in some detail. Just as it would be foolish to

expect

a good result from transplating even a hearty plant without knowing

the

conditions of its growth and development, we cannot anticipate

anything

but needless suffering if we fail to grasp the native context of the

Chinese

medical classics.

 

In other words, before your advice to view the classics abstractly

can be

responsibly followed, we're just going to have to develop among

ourselves

a proper activity of scholarship devoted to this material that will

provide

those who use it with enough data and, more importantly knowledge to

allow them to make such judgments for themselves.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <OMJournal@m...>

wrote:

 

Therefore, my personal choice would be

> to read the classics (I will leave that definition up to you) as

> Jacques Derrida would, to deconstruct them.

 

Jim

 

I am quite familiar with the postmodern deconstructionist philospohy

epitomized by Derrida, Lacan, Foucault and others. However I agree

with neo-conservative philosphers that this process, while having some

value, can easily lead to a postion of total relativism. In fact,

while most folks in our field are probably not very familiar with this

strand of french philosophy (except Mark Seem), I believe it has

nevertheless influenced the development of american alternative

medicine in a detrimental fashion. The successful reinterpretation of

the classics in every era and culture is always built upon empirical

experience. The failure to respect this empirical clinical heritage

has resulted in many people wandering very far afield in their

abstractions.

 

The only reason to introduce a new interpetation of a classical concept

is when the prevailing one does not succeed in clinical practice. And

then that new interpretation should still be rooted in clinical

experience not just a manipulation of concepts divorced from practice.

For example, advancing the idea that hidden pathogens equal chronic

viral infections does not seem to jive with actual patient presentation

in many cases of AIDS, hepatitis, etc. Yet this abstract idea is

seductive and has both influenced many seasoned px and impressionable

students. the net result has been the often inappropriate

administration of cold bitter medicinals where they are not well

indicated. conversely, the simplistic abstract correlation of immune

deficiency with xu conditions has resulted in the knee jerk use of

tonics when not indicated by s/s.

 

P.S. I do not mean to suggest that such ideas are held by you, nor do

I have any valid opinion on your own work with wu yun liu qi, five

phase, pulse, mathematics, etc., as these concepts are admittedly not

well understood by me. It does seem that you blend experience with

abstraction and that's all I ask. My concern is the majority of others

who clearly do not.

 

It is perhaps not coincidental that the worst examples of this type of

anything goes mentality are typically proposed by those with no access

to chinese sources and often no respect for the many rigorous

translations now available, as well. I think the biggest gap in the

translated literature are case studies. Case studies illustrate the

collected successes and failures of TCM. It is too easy to think TCM

has nothing to offer for certain conditions when there is merely not

enough information available to make a proper assessment. thus, rather

than accessing the information, the tendency is often to create new

abstractions of theory to fill this gap. For instance, until Blue

Poppy translated Li dong Yuan and then published extensive commentaries

and case studies on yin fire theory on its website, people were all

over the map with regard to spleen/stomach and chronic illness, much of

which can now be seen to have no actual relationship with the work of

the master himself. The same was true of the SHL before Craig and

Nigels recent work.

 

[Guest guest]

.. And then that new interpretation should still be rooted in clinical experience not just a manipulation of concepts divorced from practice.

 

>>>Still the question is the so called classics based on clinical practice as the development of new theories paralleled political and other theoretical work

alon

[Guest guest]

on 11/25/00 4:03 AM, James Ramholz at OMJournal wrote:

 

 

>I don't believe that the classics are the final

> arbiter of what we can or should know.

 

 

>Another reason for my abstract approach was that in many

> classes with my Korean acupuncture teacher over twenty years ago, we

> simply listened to him read from the original Chinese, interpret, and

> then " correct " the classics. He thought he was the equal, if not the

> better, of the authors and editors of the Nan Jing and Su Wen. I

> didn't doubt he was back then, and I still don't doubt he is now.

>

 

I know your teacher, and have enjoyed his commentaries on the Nan Jing and

Su Wen that you published. But it would seem to be chutzpah to declare that

he was the equal of the authors and editors of the Nan Jing and Su Wen. .

..even though I realize this phrase is taken out of context.

 

Twenty years ago, I doubt anyone could have debated him, checked source

texts to confirm or refute his conclusions, or taken him up on his claim. I

don't think there are many people who could do so today. However, the kind

of debate on the value and worth of the classical literature that has been

discussed here is quite premature, I think. As Todd pointed out, we are

very weak with case history literature, one of the cornerstones of examining

clinical viability of the canon. We also have, in the west, little

availability or accountability of case histories from modern practitioners.

Few in the West seems to have the classical literature firmly enough at hand

to debate anything. And, since the classical literature is the source of

the entire paradigm of systematic correspondence, I don't think anyone wants

to discard this, but would rather learn how to do it better.

 

The entire tradition of Chinese medical literature is a commentary on the

Nei Jing, Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and other seminal texts. . . .even when

there is disagreement with some of their statements. I started my study

with the first reliable Nan Jing, when it was published in 1985. I have

read it, with its voluminous commentaries, dozens of times, and continue to

read and reread it today, continuing to find more information and

inspiration. And, now, to my great joy, I can read quite a bit of the

Chinese as well, which adds to my perception of the material.

 

The classical literature was made to be forged, tried and tested in clinical

reality, interpreted and made personal to anyone who took on themselves to

" ride the dragon " , as Ken Rose puts it. It must remain as the anchor to our

medical practice, however, to survive. The principles of yin yang, wu xing,

liu jing, etc. stem from it.

 

I don't know of anyone today who has written a modern 'classic' of the

stature of these texts, who has introduced innovations that will take our

tradition to new crossroads, or a text that rewrites Chinese medicine. At

best, we are adding commentary to the great edifice of commentaries of

millenia. I will continue to study and practice, and try to scratch the

surface of this great medicine and its literature. I will try to make my

original contribution, and apply the literature to my practice and my own

writings, but not forget the source.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is a response from another list on the same topic. In terms of

hierarchy, the influences would be calculated in general from most

important to least important in the following order:

individual, locational, seasonal, and then stem and branch phenomena.

This is my opinion based on living and practicing in various parts of

the country.

 

Of possible interest is Miriam Lee's use of Stem and Branch

calculations for the moment of an individuals birth to identify

constitutional points.

 

Will

 

<<Yes, James....my use of hourly and daily stem and branch in

treatment produces inconsistent results. There does seem to be more

significant results using these methods for patients in whom some

diurnal rhythmic phenomena is part of the case. Yearly and locational

phenomena are more consistent. I suppose this is due to the strength

of long-standing influences.

 

Wang Hongtu's states in Clinical Applications of the Yellow Emperor's

Canon on Internal Medicine: " People in the northwest of China are

frequently attacked by cold weather. Their skin, muscles and space

between the skin and muscles are tight. This allows them to sweat

less. However the Yang and heat are trapped inside the body....the

treatment method is to disperse the pathogenic cold at the exterior

and clear the heat at the interior. People in the Southeast experience

damp and hot weather. Because their skin, muscles and space between

the skin and muscles are loose, they sweat profusely. Therefore the Qi

of these parts of the body is deficient. Their Yang Qi is also

weak....the treatment method for those in the Southeast is to

consolidate the Qi at the exterior while tonifying the Yang at the

interior. " And... " in Sichuan where it is moist and warm...still among

the common people there is a custom of taking mutton with Fu Zi (Rx

Aconitii lateralis) at the winter solstice. "

 

He goes on to indicate different herbs that are used in each region

and dosage variations according to region: " in the South the dosage of

Ma Huang (Hb Ephedra) is usually 2-3 grams, but in the North there can

be 8-10 grams " .

 

I have observed supervisors from the Eastern provinces prescribing

huge formulas compared to those practicing out of Shanghai such as Dr.

Shen who uses minute dosages on occasion. This is not always the case,

I have seen the esteemed Yang Tiande who is from cold Beijing

prescribing large formulas with minute doses.>>

[Guest guest]

At 10:43 PM +0000 11/29/00, Will Morris wrote:

>Of possible interest is Miriam Lee's use of Stem and Branch

>calculations for the moment of an individuals birth to identify

>constitutional points.

---

 

Is this published?

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

Not that I'm aware of.

Will

 

> Is this published?

>

> Rory

[Guest guest]

Of possible interest is Miriam Lee's use of Stem and Branch calculations for the moment of an individuals birth to identify constitutional points.

>>>>I have never seen her do this in 2 years of following her

alon