Guest guest Posted December 3, 2000 Report Share Posted December 3, 2000 Todd Thanks for info about tinctures.I was just interested to know if in the States there are companies making the individual herb tinctures or formula eg si jun zi tang etc Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2000 Report Share Posted December 22, 2000 As to practitioners that will tell you that Chinese herbal tinctures are effective: well evidence suggests that this can't biochemically be the case. Mark, could you elaborate on this? David ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2000 Report Share Posted December 22, 2000 For example, if ma huang is 3% alkaloids, then 30 mg of every gram of raw herb is alkaloids. If it takes about 15 mg of the main alkaloid ephedrine to relieve asthma in an adult, one must ingest the extract of about 500mg of ma huang. If a formula such as ma huang tang is used in tincture and ma huang makes up 30% of the tincture, then there are about 1500mg of ma huang in a typical one ounce tincture, thus about 45 mg of alkaloids. Thus, relief of asthma would require taking about 1/3 of the bottle each time. Yet such products are often prescribed in doses 10 times less than this, which cannot be active pharmacologically. Granted xing ren is also present, but it is much milder than ma haung in relieving asthma, but one would still need to use the formula over two days, not ten. Coincidentally, many british herbalists prescribe tinctures at exactly this level (1 tsp TID). However, this would make a typical chinese herbal tincture cost the patient about $150 per month instead of $30. And since ma huang is much more active than most chinese herbs, you would need a lot more of others, especially larger formulas. This analysis depends upon an acceptance that chinese herbs are dose dependent and exert their effects pharmacologically. We have all heard reports that suggest low dosages to be effective, but these remain anecdotal and unscientific and do not jive with my experience, either. Consider coffee,the ubiquitous herbal extract consumed worldwide. All coffee drinkers know that a minimum dose of coffee is necesary to get a stimulant effect and more coffee means more buzz. One dropper of coffee won't do anything at all except to very hypersensitive types who react strongly to everything, including placebos. why would other herbs work differently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 Thanks for taking the response for me. I was also going to add the Institute for Traditional Medicine's point that many polysaccharide based herbs (e.g astragalus, reishi, etc) don't extract in alcohol extracts. However dosage is the biggest problems with tinctures and extracts. Mark Reese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 , " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote: > Thanks for info about tinctures.I was just interested to know if in the > States there are companies making the individual herb tinctures or formula > eg > si jun zi tang etc yes, I believe so, but I do not use tinctures so I have not looked at the products closely > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 , " Mark Reese " <tcm2@e...> wrote: > > > Thanks for taking the response for me. I couldn't help myself I was also going to add the Institute for Traditional Medicine's point that many polysaccharide based herbs (e.g astragalus, reishi, etc) don't extract in alcohol extracts. a major issue,as well > However dosage is the biggest problems with tinctures and extracts. there is also the fact that alcohol is a medicinal itself, which warms and invigorates. I think this is an issue even in the extracts Zev refers to. Alcohol is the single largest ingredient in both standard tinctures and fluid extracts (after or equal to water, of course). So one could say that the chief ingredient of any tincture or extract is alcohol. thus, all products made with alcohol have a significant warming and invigorating function which may be absent in decoction or granules. Unless I want to include warmth and movement in my treatment principles, I would not use alcohol containing products. With regard to dosage, it is also worth noting that chinese medicinal wines are not thought to be effective unless the patient actually begins to feel the effects of the alcohol. This again is a reflection of the fact that if one can't feel the alcohol,one has likely failed to ingest sufficient active constituents of the other ingredients for the formula to do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 It's interesting that if you alcohol extract Astragalus, it becomes liver protective, whereas the decocted version does not. As far as dosage of tinctures and extracts, I dose my extractions to be almost identical to raw herb formulas. This usually involves making smaller formulas (6 or less herbs) and keeping my prices very low. David Mark Reese wrote: > > > Thanks for taking the response for me. I was also going to add the > Institute for Traditional Medicine's point that many polysaccharide based > herbs (e.g astragalus, reishi, etc) don't extract in alcohol extracts. > However dosage is the biggest problems with tinctures and extracts. > > Mark Reese > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 tinctures have always seemed to me to be a reduction in strength as compared to extracts which are an increase in strength Alon - Saturday, December 23, 2000 10:11 AM Re: Tinctures / Extractions , "heiko" <heiko@l...> wrote:> Thanks for info about tinctures.I was just interested to know if in the> States there are companies making the individual herb tinctures or formula> eg> si jun zi tang etcyes, I believe so, but I do not use tinctures so I have not looked at the products closelyChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 on 12/23/00 10:19 AM, at wrote: > > I was also going to add the Institute for Traditional Medicine's point > that many polysaccharide based herbs (e.g astragalus, reishi, etc) > don't extract in alcohol extracts. This is true. . . . .I have tried astragalus in alcohol tincture, and it is quite weak, and a lot appears to be missing. >> However dosage is the biggest problems with tinctures and extracts. > > there is also the fact that alcohol is a medicinal itself, which warms > and invigorates. I think this is an issue even in the extracts Zev > refers to. Alcohol is the single largest ingredient in both standard > tinctures and fluid extracts (after or equal to water, of course). So > one could say that the chief ingredient of any tincture or extract is > alcohol. thus, all products made with alcohol have a significant > warming and invigorating function which may be absent in decoction or > granules. Unless I want to include warmth and movement in my treatment > principles, I would not use alcohol containing products. With regard > to dosage, it is also worth noting that chinese medicinal wines are not > thought to be effective unless the patient actually begins to feel the > effects of the alcohol. This again is a reflection of the fact that if > one can't feel the alcohol,one has likely failed to ingest sufficient > active constituents of the other ingredients for the formula to do > anything. > > I have to disagree with based on my own clinical experience. For example, I have used heat clearing medicinals in extraction for at least 12 years, such as yin qiao san, and have had quick resolutions to wind-heat patterns at wei or early qi aspects. Over and over again. I have never seen excessive heat responses in any but a few individuals, who, of course, I switched to another method of administrating medicinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 Saturday, December 23, 2000 11:20 AM Re: Tinctures / Extractions -- ...thus, all products made with alcohol have a significant warming and invigorating function which may be absent in decoction or granules... I agree with some of the concepts you have discussed. And, I personally feel that alcohol relaxes constrained liver qi as much as it warms. Although with anything more than one or two beers or glasses of wine's worth of alcohol, the relaxed constraint will rebound further toward constraint within 12 hours than was initially the case. But more specifically to your statement above, ethanol that is used as a solvent in large extraction plants is usually recovered prior to spray drying or vaccum drying because of the wasted expense of letting it evaporate in the drying process. It is then re-used in future extractions where alcohol is called for. In these cases, I don't believe that the use of alcohol in the solvent causes a warming effect to be imparted by the resulting extract. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 , " Stephen Morrissey " < stephen@b...> wrote: ethanol that is used as a solvent in large extraction plants is > usually recovered prior to spray drying or vaccum drying because of the > wasted expense of letting it evaporate in the drying process. It is then > re-used in future extractions where alcohol is called for. In these cases, > I don't believe that the use of alcohol in the solvent causes a warming > effect to be imparted by the resulting extract. Stephen, I totally agree. If the alcohol is not present in the finished product, it is not an ingredient and exerts no influence on the patient (except to the extent that using alcohol for extraction yields a different chemical profile in the first place). However the products to which I refer have not been spray dried but are prescribed in liquid form, alcohol and all. Also I respect Zev's clinical experience, but using such products would be a big leap of faith for me, especially since I am well satisfied with concentrated water extract powders. However, there are liquid products out there that are low in alcohol, however even at 20% alcohol by volume, it is still the molecule present in largest concentration in the finished product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2000 Report Share Posted December 26, 2000 Coffee by the teaspon might not be analogous. The tinctures may be better dispersed throughout the body because of the alcohol, however I also doubt that that it entirely makes up for the lower dosage. I make my own tinctures which are much cheaper than commercial tinctures and teach my clients how to do so if appropriate, then give large doses. (For western bitters I have them buy Fernet at $15 a liter instead of little tincture bottles at $7.50 an ounce.) However I think granules are more convenient and cost effective. OTOH, there is the biphasic theory of medicine where small drop doses can have different effects than large doses of the same medicine (or similar effects but only on those with constitutional succeptibilities.) This was part of allopathic theory until early in this century when it was dropped in favor of simplistic effect/side effect theory but remains part of homeopathy. I've never seen references to it in Chinese herbalism. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " You can't do anything about the length of your life, but you can do something about its width and depth. " Evan Esar On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:08:47 -0000 " " < writes: >For example, if ma huang is 3% alkaloids, then 30 mg of every gram of >raw herb is alkaloids. If it takes about 15 mg of the main alkaloid >ephedrine to relieve asthma in an adult, one must ingest the extract >of about 500mg of ma huang. ... Thus, relief of asthma would require >taking about 1/3 >of the bottle each time. Yet such products are often prescribed in >doses 10 times less than this, which cannot be active >pharmacologically. ... >Coincidentally, many british herbalists prescribe tinctures at exactly >this level (1 tsp TID). However, this would make a typical chinese >herbal tincture cost the patient about $150 per month instead of $30. >...We have all heard >reports that suggest low dosages to be effective, but these remain >anecdotal and unscientific and do not jive with my experience, either. > ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2000 Report Share Posted December 26, 2000 , Karen S Vaughan < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > Coffee by the teaspon might not be analogous. good point. how about a teaspoon of beer, another alcoholic herbal extract? > (For western bitters I have them buy Fernet at $15 a liter instead of > little tincture bottles at $7.50 an ounce.) There is a company (I can't remember the name, though) that imports british made tinctures and they are like 50-70% cheaper than american tinctures > > OTOH, there is the biphasic theory of medicine where small drop doses can > have different effects than large doses of the same medicine (or similar > effects but only on those with constitutional succeptibilities.) It seems to me that substances with biphasic effects are often very strong or toxic (or strangely enough, inert in full dose). Mild herbal substances like much of the TCM materia medica may not have these effects. I base this on an examination of the eclectic and homeopathic materia medicas. Many mild substances used in material herbology have EXACTLY the same indications in homeopathy (such as echinacea, berberis, goldenseal, etc.) while it is substances like arsenic, sulfur, etc. that seem to have pronounced biphasic effects. I have written more about this at http://www.inetarena.com/~/homeo.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2000 Report Share Posted December 26, 2000 Dear Z'ev, In my opinion, the alcohol only to deal with yang deficiency and absolute not to deal with live problem. If the herb have alcohol ingredient on the live problem, it will increase more problem for liver. I never use alcohol myself, because most of my patients has hepatitis A,B,C, . Sometime you can use alcohol in kidney yang deficiency. Most of the time the alcohol only use for arthritis which deal with yang deficiency. Nhung Ta - <zrosenberg Saturday, December 23, 2000 8:57 PM Re: Re: Tinctures / Extractions > on 12/23/00 10:19 AM, at wrote: > > > > > I was also going to add the Institute for Traditional Medicine's point > > that many polysaccharide based herbs (e.g astragalus, reishi, etc) > > don't extract in alcohol extracts. > > > This is true. . . . .I have tried astragalus in alcohol tincture, and it is > quite weak, and a lot appears to be missing. > > >> However dosage is the biggest problems with tinctures and extracts. > > > > there is also the fact that alcohol is a medicinal itself, which warms > > and invigorates. I think this is an issue even in the extracts Zev > > refers to. Alcohol is the single largest ingredient in both standard > > tinctures and fluid extracts (after or equal to water, of course). So > > one could say that the chief ingredient of any tincture or extract is > > alcohol. thus, all products made with alcohol have a significant > > warming and invigorating function which may be absent in decoction or > > granules. Unless I want to include warmth and movement in my treatment > > principles, I would not use alcohol containing products. With regard > > to dosage, it is also worth noting that chinese medicinal wines are not > > thought to be effective unless the patient actually begins to feel the > > effects of the alcohol. This again is a reflection of the fact that if > > one can't feel the alcohol,one has likely failed to ingest sufficient > > active constituents of the other ingredients for the formula to do > > anything. > > > > > > > I have to disagree with based on my own clinical experience. For > example, I have used heat clearing medicinals in extraction for at least 12 > years, such as yin qiao san, and have had quick resolutions to wind-heat > patterns at wei or early qi aspects. Over and over again. I have never > seen excessive heat responses in any but a few individuals, who, of course, > I switched to another method of administrating medicinals. > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2000 Report Share Posted December 26, 2000 Karen S Vaughan wrote: > OTOH, there is the biphasic theory of medicine where small drop doses can > have different effects than large doses of the same medicine (or similar > effects but only on those with constitutional succeptibilities.) I've never seen references to it in Chinese herbalism. Well, there is the whole thing about an herb having more than one function and the amount of herb in a formula will determine which of its functions is utilized. I'd like to hear from the more experienced folks on this list more about this. I see Chinese trained practitioners messing with dosages all the time to effect the specific function of the herb within a formula. To my knowledge, this isn't really addressed in any of the texts that I have at my disposal. One instructor said that the closer the pathology is to the Spleen/Stomach, the less of the herb you'll need, since the herb (that is taken internally) is obviously going to end up in the digestive tract. So, Ren Shen (ginseng) for the Spleen requires less of a dosage than Ren Shen for the Lungs. That would be the reasoning. If there is a definitive reference for dosages to effect the function of herbs, I haven't found it. But I'd like to. > " You can't do anything about the length of your life, but you can do > something about its width and depth. " Evan Esar Nice! -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2000 Report Share Posted December 26, 2000 on 12/26/00 2:06 PM, Nhung Ta at nhung.ta wrote: > Dear Z'ev, > In my opinion, the alcohol only to deal with yang > deficiency and absolute not to deal with live problem. If the herb have > alcohol ingredient on the live problem, it will increase more problem for > liver. I never use alcohol myself, because most of my patients has hepatitis > A,B,C, . Sometime you can use alcohol in kidney yang deficiency. Most of the > time the alcohol only use for arthritis which deal with yang deficiency. > Nhung Ta Sorry, Nhung, It's your opinion against mine. I've never had any problem with yin xu patients, only patients with specific alcohol sensitivity, then I just use something else. The amount is relatively small in the products I use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 wrote: > Sorry, Nhung, > It's your opinion against mine. I've never had any problem with yin xu > patients, only patients with specific alcohol sensitivity, then I just use > something else. The amount is relatively small in the products I use. Alcohol sensitivity is a concern of mine as one of my patients has a bit of an issue with this. What do you guys think about steeping the herbs in alcohol and then boiling the alcohol out of the decoction when its done? I've heard that alcohol serves as a preservative to extend the shelf life of these tinctures, so I guess if there is no alcohol it would be wise to refrigerate the tinctures at this point. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 I think, alcohol is used for invigorating blood as well. Of course if a patient does not have any kind of liver problem.Zev and Nhung Ta,what is your opinion about recent recommendations you can find in popular press of drinking of small amount of red vine to avoid heart problem? Yuri zrosenberg Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:26:36 -0800 Re: Re: Tinctures / Extractions on 12/26/00 2:06 PM, Nhung Ta at nhung.ta wrote: > Dear Z'ev, > In my opinion, the alcohol only to deal with yang > deficiency and absolute not to deal with live problem. If the herb have > alcohol ingredient on the live problem, it will increase more problem for > liver. I never use alcohol myself, because most of my patients has hepatitis > A,B,C, . Sometime you can use alcohol in kidney yang deficiency. Most of the > time the alcohol only use for arthritis which deal with yang deficiency. > Nhung Ta Sorry, Nhung, It's your opinion against mine. I've never had any problem with yin xu patients, only patients with specific alcohol sensitivity, then I just use something else. The amount is relatively small in the products I use. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. _________________________ Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 on 12/27/00 9:59 PM, yuri ovchinikov at yuriovi wrote: > I think, alcohol is used for invigorating blood as well. Of course if a > patient does not have any kind of liver problem.Zev and Nhung Ta,what is your > opinion about recent recommendations you can find in popular press of drinking > of small amount of red vine to avoid heart problem? > Yuri > Alcohol is a medicinal in its own right. . . .small amounts of well-made red wine, because of its warm, pungent sweet and sour properties, can quicken the blood, disperse cold, and enter the heart. The reports you mention make a lot of sense. However, if the patient has liver qi depression, liver/spleen disharmony and/or damp heat, I would think twice about this advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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