Guest guest Posted December 22, 2000 Report Share Posted December 22, 2000 Fred Actually another character also pronounced yu is translated as depression by Wiseman. Gan qi yu is liver qi depression, often erroneously translated as liver qi stagnation. So yu/depression is correct to the extent that depression and stagnation are overlapping terms. According to Wiseman, depression usually refers to affect damage, while stagnation (zhi) is more general for any kind of stagnation from any cause. As for yu/stasis, it does not only refer to blood stasis. While this is its main meaning, the term is used in several other contexts, such as heat stasis, stasis macules. This points out the weakness of pinyin and the superiority of wiseman terminology for precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2000 Report Share Posted December 22, 2000 " depression usually refers to affect damage, " I'm not sure what this means.... as I understand things since the nature of liver qi is to move, " depression " is " less of " therefore there is less movement and since there is less movement there is " stagnation " . This is the since I make of the confusion. What did throw me was the Qin bo Wei book, Paradigm/Charles Chase, which continually referred to " liver Qi " without a qualifier which I eventually realized might be a Chinese vernacular (much in the way " yu " was described as shorthand for blood stagnation in another post). interestingly, just today I was absently thumbing through CAM today in the clinic and they also used " depression " for liver qi as well. you learn something every day. So these are my assumptions, any comments? wrote: > Fred > > Actually another character also pronounced yu is translated as > depression by Wiseman. Gan qi yu is liver qi depression, often > erroneously translated as liver qi stagnation. So yu/depression is > correct to the extent that depression and stagnation are overlapping > terms. According to Wiseman, depression usually refers to affect > damage, while stagnation (zhi) is more general for any kind of > stagnation from any cause. As for yu/stasis, it does not only refer to > blood stasis. While this is its main meaning, the term is used in > several other contexts, such as heat stasis, stasis macules. This > points out the weakness of pinyin and the superiority of wiseman > terminology for precision. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 >"" > > > yu >Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:31:35 -0000 > >Fred > >Actually another character also pronounced yu is translated as >depression by Wiseman. Gan qi yu is liver qi depression, often >erroneously translated as liver qi stagnation. So yu/depression is >correct to the extent that depression and stagnation are overlapping >terms. According to Wiseman, depression usually refers to affect >damage, while stagnation (zhi) is more general for any kind of >stagnation from any cause. As for yu/stasis, it does not only refer to >blood stasis. While this is its main meaning, the term is used in >several other contexts, such as heat stasis, stasis macules. This >points out the weakness of pinyin and the superiority of wiseman >terminology for precision. > >Todd > > > It is funny as soon as I sent that e-mail I knew someone would bring up Liver qi depression or Gan Qi Yu. I had a conversation with one of our Chinese instructors about this topic. I am not sure if this particular Doctor was unclear about what I was asking or what, but He told our class that anyone who uses (Yu) with anything other than Xue was ignorant to the Chinese language. One of the students in our class also mentioned the concepts of depression versus stagnation. The teacher unfortunately was unfamiliar with depression (Yu) vs stagnation. So either "A" a chinese trained doctor misunderstood the comment or "B" maybe the confusion with the characters was causing the communication barrier, or "C" The Qin Bo Wei theory is only used by certain practitioners? I could add more letters, but this class really stood out in my mind because I previously would use Yu when writing my notes for stagnation. The more I learn about chinese the more I get stuck in confusion with the various translations. I would also like to say that I value the Wiseman and Ellis translations very much. Thank-you Todd for the Yu comment. I appreciate the fact that you can quote various texts and the theory that embraces them--Very admirable. FredGet your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 , " Alfred Russo " <russoshen@h...> wrote: > So either " A " a chinese trained doctor misunderstood the comment or " B " maybe the confusion with the characters was causing the communication barrier, or " C " The Qin Bo Wei theory is only used by certain practitioners? Fred With all due respect to your professor, this is clearly an issue of communication. It is also why translation is always inadequate unless the one of the translation team natively speaks the language being translated into. In Wiseman, you will find numerous entries in the pinyin index for gan yu ..., gan qi yu, etc. On the other hand,there are no entries for gan qi zhi. I am impressed with your familiarity with Qin Bo Wei's discussion of this subject, but the phrase gan qi yu runs through all modern TCM texts as well and definitely refers to the pattern often rendered as liver qi stagnation by translators like Kaptchuk. Perhaps if you showed your teacher the entries in Wiseman which include the two different characters both pronounced yu, this would be easily cleared up. It may be worth noting that yu/stasis is pronounced with a flat tone, while yu/depression is pronounced with a descending tone. when pronounced in english, pinyin basically sounds flat, so without correct tonality, your teacher may have thought you were referring to the same character. Even amongst chinese speakers, it is sometimes necessary to write a character to convey clarity in verbal interactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 on 12/23/00 12:44 AM, Alfred Russo at russoshen wrote: I agree 100 %. Todd has done a great job in cutting through this particular dilemma, which I have seen repeatedly, and I assume is happening in TCM schools all over the country. I realize that some people are reticent about accepting a 'standard' of translation, i.e. Wiseman, but lets at least use Chinese/English medical dictionaries and glossaries that can clear up these problems. Undoubtedly, the Practical Dictionary of is the best text out there for the task. The obfuscation caused by a lack of Chinese language skills from the Western student side, and the lack of translation skills from the teacher side has led to this confusion. The answer is to teach medical Chinese to Western students, and use glossaries and dictionaries that have Chinese, Pinyin and English entries to avoid this confusion. > >Fred > >Actually another character also pronounced yu is translated as >depression by Wiseman. Gan qi yu is liver qi depression, often >erroneously translated as liver qi stagnation. So yu/depression is >correct to the extent that depression and stagnation are overlapping >terms. According to Wiseman, depression usually refers to affect >damage, while stagnation (zhi) is more general for any kind of >stagnation from any cause. As for yu/stasis, it does not only refer to >blood stasis. While this is its main meaning, the term is used in >several other contexts, such as heat stasis, stasis macules. This >points out the weakness of pinyin and the superiority of wiseman >terminology for precision. > >Todd > > > It is funny as soon as I sent that e-mail I knew someone would bring up Liver qi depression or Gan Qi Yu. I had a conversation with one of our Chinese instructors about this topic. I am not sure if this particular Doctor was unclear about what I was asking or what, but He told our class that anyone who uses (Yu) with anything other than Xue was ignorant to the Chinese language. One of the students in our class also mentioned the concepts of depression versus stagnation. The teacher unfortunately was unfamiliar with depression (Yu) vs stagnation. So either " A " a chinese trained doctor misunderstood the comment or " B " maybe the confusion with the characters was causing the communication barrier, or " C " The Qin Bo Wei theory is only used by certain practitioners? I could add more letters, but this class really stood out in my mind because I previously would use Yu when writing my notes for stagnation. The more I learn about chinese the more I get stuck in confusion with the various translations. I would also like to say that I value the Wiseman and Ellis translations very much. Thank-you Todd for the Yu comment. I appreciate the fact that you can quote various texts and the theory that embraces them--Very admirable. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 At 6:17 PM -0800 12/23/00, wrote: The answer is to teach medical Chinese to Western students, and use glossaries and dictionaries that have Chinese, Pinyin and English entries to avoid this confusion. --- How does PCOM go about this? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 on 12/24/00 8:11 AM, Rory Kerr at rorykerr wrote: At 6:17 PM -0800 12/23/00, wrote: The answer is to teach medical Chinese to Western students, and use glossaries and dictionaries that have Chinese, Pinyin and English entries to avoid this confusion. --- How does PCOM go about this? Rory It is still voluntary. . .but a few instructors, such as Bob Damone and myself, do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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