dope/liver fire

[Guest guest]

Thanks for input about the pulse effects etc of weed consumption ,Z'ev.

I was wondering about the smoking effects and how it causes red eyes very

quickly .....liver fire ? but it doesn't seem to make them agro like

alcohol.

The really long term smokers get very unmotivated .....is this due to

damaging spleen (damp) or the kidney (will ) being affected?

 

I know homoeopaths often prescribe remedies to undo damage from smoking weed

before giving the necessary remedy.

I know with my patients that smoke the stuff are really sensative to

acupuncture etc .....and can feel all sorts of things and see things as well

when I get the " right " points. I find them difficult to treat usually

because they have an ingrained believe that it is good for them .

 

 

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

[Guest guest]

Todd

I think you are right about the lung and dope and red eyes and Al made that

comment about the lung po and smoking. But I was wondering about if it is

really from the stomach in origin. The smoke goes directly to the lungs to

begin with.

I have noticed that in myself when I first starting using moxa in winter I

get red sore eyes ..and a raging appetite......

But from a zang/fu perspective its not common for lung fire to cause /lead

to st fire.

thoughts anyone

 

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

[Guest guest]

Todd

Thanks for that MSU.

Thats what I like about this group.I learn about TCM and a bit of middle

Eastern history as well.

 

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

[Guest guest]

on 12/4/00 4:35 PM, heiko at heiko wrote:

 

> Thanks for input about the pulse effects etc of weed consumption ,Z'ev.

> I was wondering about the smoking effects and how it causes red eyes very

> quickly .....liver fire ? but it doesn't seem to make them agro like

> alcohol.

 

This would be consumption of liver yin creating heat. Interestingly,

marijuana has been shown in some studies (any to the contrary?) to relieve

symptoms of glaucoma.

 

> The really long term smokers get very unmotivated .....is this due to

> damaging spleen (damp) or the kidney (will ) being affected?

 

The heat in marijuana seems to penetrate the spleen from the stomach. . .

..blood sugar tends to fluctuate with long-term smoking. The kidney/zhi

(will) connection may be there, but hard to say definitively.

>

> I know homoeopaths often prescribe remedies to undo damage from smoking weed

> before giving the necessary remedy.

> I know with my patients that smoke the stuff are really sensative to

> acupuncture etc .....and can feel all sorts of things and see things as well

> when I get the " right " points. I find them difficult to treat usually

> because they have an ingrained believe that it is good for them .

 

Marijuana seems to highten the endorphin 'rush' of acupuncture. . . I have

had patients 'under the influence' get that 'wow' effect. Of course, I tell

most patients I won't treat them while under the influence, and discourage

at least regular smoking while under treatment.

 

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

> Thanks for input about the pulse effects etc of weed consumption ,Z'ev.

> I was wondering about the smoking effects and how it causes red eyes very

> quickly .....liver fire ? but it doesn't seem to make them agro like

> alcohol.

> The really long term smokers get very unmotivated .....is this due to

> damaging spleen (damp) or the kidney (will ) being affected?

>

 

I think we need to remember that the pateints we encounter in our

practices are not healthy balanced individuals. That is why they are

in our offices. I have known quite a few marijuana smokers who were

tops in their fields and highly motivated, including various sports,

engineering, physics and computer science. I would admit that most

marijuana smokers are not like this and most who smoke chronically

probably shouldn't. But like any other medicinal, it needs to be

considered in context. As for Worsley's opinion on pot versus alcohol,

it is almost too ludicrous to reply. Alcohol is responsible for more

death and destruction than all illegal drugs combined. If marijuana

was so detrimental, then why are its measurable effects on physiology

so negligible? Almost all the research showing damage to various

systems orchestrated during the reagan administration has been largely

discredited. If something was that much worse than alcohol, one would

expect to see brain or liver pathology much worse than what one finds

in alcoholics. I think there is actually ample epidemiological and

sociological evidence to show that casual, occasional marijuana use is

of no medical concern, certainly no more than occasional alcohol use

and perhaps less of a concern even than caffeine. Since cannabis

lowers blood pressure, a proper study of healthy people might actually

show better health amongst even regular small dose users,just as it has

for daily small dose users of wine and beer. In ayurveda, cannabis is

considered a rasayana, a drug of immortality when properly prepared.

The shen nong ben cao accords cannabis a similar status.

 

[Guest guest]

on 12/24/00 6:37 PM, at wrote:

 

Again,

As I noted in my post, dosage, time used, frequency and constitution are

important factors in considering the effects of a medicinal substance such

as marijuana. The sacramental use of marijuana, and, yes, alcohol and

tobacco by native americans, for example, was much less likely to lead to

abuse than in our more-more-more materialistic culture, where the boundaries

are not so well set, to say the least. I agree that marijuana used very

occasionally doesn't harm the body. . . .but, over a certain threshold, it

starts to produce patterns of specific damage. The same can be said for

alcohol and tobacco. However, the bioengineering of marijuana to maximize

the resin and THC I think has increased its potency somewhat since the

'60's. And, yes, I find that a joint seems to effect the pulse more readily

than a stiff drink. And, yet, an alcoholic has more physical and

psychological damage, I think, than a long-term pot smoker.

 

As far as its rasayana status. . . .. .many substances used as rejuvenators

and longevity medicines in both Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine are also

subject to abuse if not taken in proper dosage. . ..this would be true of

any substance that has dramatic effects to the body and mind.

>

> I think we need to remember that the pateints we encounter in our

> practices are not healthy balanced individuals. That is why they are

> in our offices. I have known quite a few marijuana smokers who were

> tops in their fields and highly motivated, including various sports,

> engineering, physics and computer science. I would admit that most

> marijuana smokers are not like this and most who smoke chronically

> probably shouldn't. But like any other medicinal, it needs to be

> considered in context. As for Worsley's opinion on pot versus alcohol,

> it is almost too ludicrous to reply. Alcohol is responsible for more

> death and destruction than all illegal drugs combined. If marijuana

> was so detrimental, then why are its measurable effects on physiology

> so negligible? Almost all the research showing damage to various

> systems orchestrated during the reagan administration has been largely

> discredited. If something was that much worse than alcohol, one would

> expect to see brain or liver pathology much worse than what one finds

> in alcoholics. I think there is actually ample epidemiological and

> sociological evidence to show that casual, occasional marijuana use is

> of no medical concern, certainly no more than occasional alcohol use

> and perhaps less of a concern even than caffeine. Since cannabis

> lowers blood pressure, a proper study of healthy people might actually

> show better health amongst even regular small dose users,just as it has

> for daily small dose users of wine and beer. In ayurveda, cannabis is

> considered a rasayana, a drug of immortality when properly prepared.

> The shen nong ben cao accords cannabis a similar status.

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <@i...>

wrote:

> , " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

> > Thanks for input about the pulse effects etc of weed consumption ,Z'ev.

> > I was wondering about the smoking effects and how it causes red eyes very

> > quickly .....liver fire ?

 

The whites of the eyes reflect the lung zang. I wonder if ingestion

via the stomach causes this effect. Anyone recall whether pot brownies

do this? Perhaps it has something to do with ministerial fire flaring/

yin xu. I think it is more of a kidney/heart yin xu, as anxiety and

palps is a typical adverse response, while I don't think of pot as

making people have explosive anger; it seems to relieve this sx for a

lot of people actually.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

 

marijuana used . . . .over a certain threshold, it

> starts to produce patterns of specific damage.

 

I agree

 

>

> As far as its rasayana status. . . .. .many substances used as rejuvenators

> and longevity medicines in both Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine are also

> subject to abuse if not taken in proper dosage. . ..this would be true of

> any substance that has dramatic effects to the body and mind.

 

I also agree with this.

[Guest guest]

Alcohol is responsible for more death and destruction than all illegal drugs combined

>>>Correct, you can include legal drugs as well

Alon

[Guest guest]

The whites of the eyes reflect the lung zang. I wonder if ingestion via the stomach causes this effect.

>>>Yes it does

Alon

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/24/00 4:09:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, heiko

writes:

 

<< I find them difficult to treat usually

because they have an ingrained believe that it is good for them .

>>

Heiko, why would that make them difficult to treat? It seems like it would

make it easier.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

, " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

 

> But from a zang/fu perspective its not common for lung fire to cause /lead to

st fire. thoughts anyone

 

 

Since this is uncharted territory, I will venture into the land of what

Chip chace calls MSU (making stuff up). Perhaps the common stimulation

of minsterial fire causes heat in all organs. Visibly, this is

strongly reflected in the whites of eyes. In appetite, as stomach

heat. BTW, THC is proven to improve appetite, so it seems to stimulate

the stomach regardless of mindset, at least in those with nausea or

wasting disorders. Finally,though we don't associate cannabis with

violent behavior,thus liver fire seems an unlikely short term response,

perhaps this is set and setting. Hashish was supposedly used by an

arabic cult in the middle ages to stoke the killer impulse in certain

assassins (known as hashasins). However,other reports suggest that it

was not used before killing, but rather to seduce new converts into the

cult. The converts were given large amounts of hash and then provided

with a setting similar to the muslim paradise (sumptuous food, houris

to satisfy sexual desire, etc.). then they were told that by killing

the oppressors, they could return to this paradise at will.

Apparently, the hashasins were rebels opposing a ruthless dictator.

 

[Guest guest]

Chip chace calls MSU (making stuff up).

>>>>Well this is at the heart of systems of correspondence is it. And the reason why I tried to bring the conversation back to real cases

Alon

 

-

 

Wednesday, December 27, 2000 12:25 PM

Re: dope/liver fire

, "heiko" <heiko@l...> wrote:> But from a zang/fu perspective its not common for lung fire to cause /lead to st fire. thoughts anyoneSince this is uncharted territory, I will venture into the land of what Chip chace calls MSU (making stuff up). Perhaps the common stimulation of minsterial fire causes heat in all organs. Visibly, this is strongly reflected in the whites of eyes. In appetite, as stomach heat. BTW, THC is proven to improve appetite, so it seems to stimulate the stomach regardless of mindset, at least in those with nausea or wasting disorders. Finally,though we don't associate cannabis with violent behavior,thus liver fire seems an unlikely short term response, perhaps this is set and setting. Hashish was supposedly used by an arabic cult in the middle ages to stoke the killer impulse in certain assassins (known as hashasins). However,other reports suggest that it was not used before killing, but rather to seduce new converts into the cult. The converts were given large amounts of hash and then provided with a setting similar to the muslim paradise (sumptuous food, houris to satisfy sexual desire, etc.). then they were told that by killing the oppressors, they could return to this paradise at will. Apparently, the hashasins were rebels opposing a ruthless dictator.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 12/27/00 1:44 PM, ALON MARCUS at alonmarcus wrote:

 

Chip chace calls MSU (making stuff up).

>>>>Well this is at the heart of systems of correspondence is it. And the reason why I tried to bring the conversation back to real cases

Alon

 

 

Systems of correspondence are a double-edged sword. On one hand, one cannot diagnose a patient in CM without them.. . . .on the other hand, they can easily be used as to rationalize sloppy thinking if not used properly. As Chip Chace says in his article/translation on Tang Rong-chuan's " Discourse on Yin and Yang, Water and Fire, Qi and Blood " : " We may interpret the principle of mutual transformation (qi is engendered by water, and can transform water as one example) as a license for sloppy thinking, adopting the attitude that since everything is related to everything else, we are bound to hit the mark somehow or another. Conversely, an understanding of the clinical ramifications of this idea will provide the astute clinician with the tools necessary to address complex pathodynamics with relatively few medicinals. By accurately determining the core elements in a clinical picture, many messy patterns may be resolved with comparatively simple intervention " . Or as Volker Schied's teacher said, " moving a mountain with a feather " .

 

I don't support making stuff up without clinically verification if or offering it to one's colleagues for further discussion or testing. Also, it needs to have reference to what has come before. Patterns and systems of correspondence may seem arbitrary, but they have been tested for a very long time clinically before becoming part of the intellectual structure of Chinese medicine.

 

Certainly, we need to be discussing clinical cases, and also the theoretical foundations of Chinese medicine that allows us to come up with the tools to treat patients.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Certainly, we need to be discussing clinical cases, and also the theoretical foundations of Chinese medicine that allows us to come up with the tools to treat patients.>>>>>I agree and would like to see more clinical discussions. This forum as incredible potential.

Alon

 

-

 

Wednesday, December 27, 2000 3:05 PM

Re: Re: dope/liver fire

on 12/27/00 1:44 PM, ALON MARCUS at alonmarcus wrote:

Chip chace calls MSU (making stuff up). >>>>Well this is at the heart of systems of correspondence is it. And the reason why I tried to bring the conversation back to real casesAlonSystems of correspondence are a double-edged sword. On one hand, one cannot diagnose a patient in CM without them.. . . .on the other hand, they can easily be used as to rationalize sloppy thinking if not used properly. As Chip Chace says in his article/translation on Tang Rong-chuan's "Discourse on Yin and Yang, Water and Fire, Qi and Blood": "We may interpret the principle of mutual transformation (qi is engendered by water, and can transform water as one example) as a license for sloppy thinking, adopting the attitude that since everything is related to everything else, we are bound to hit the mark somehow or another. Conversely, an understanding of the clinical ramifications of this idea will provide the astute clinician with the tools necessary to address complex pathodynamics with relatively few medicinals. By accurately determining the core elements in a clinical picture, many messy patterns may be resolved with comparative! ly simple intervention". Or as Volker Schied's teacher said, "moving a mountain with a feather".I don't support making stuff up without clinically verification if or offering it to one's colleagues for further discussion or testing. Also, it needs to have reference to what has come before. Patterns and systems of correspondence may seem arbitrary, but they have been tested for a very long time clinically before becoming part of the intellectual structure of Chinese medicine. Certainly, we need to be discussing clinical cases, and also the theoretical foundations of Chinese medicine that allows us to come up with the tools to treat patients.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

> on 12/27/00 1:44 PM, ALON MARCUS at alonmarcus@w... wrote:

..

> >>>>Well this is at the heart of systems of correspondence is it. And the

reason

> why I tried to bring the conversation back to real cases

> Alon

>

>

> Systems of correspondence are a double-edged sword. On one hand, one cannot

> diagnose a patient in CM without them.. . . .on the other hand, they can

> easily be used as to rationalize sloppy thinking if not used properly.

 

 

Why discuss the properties of cannabis at all, then? It doesn't really

matter what cannabis does. It only matters what the patient presents

with, right? If they have stomach fire, treat it. If they have

dampness, treat it. Etiologies are only possibilities. However,

understanding the substance can allow us to compensate for its use

prior to the appearance of sx or even use it as a medicinal. We can

also use this information to give appropriate lifestyle advice.

 

This list (obviously) is not just to discuss cases and I was actually

thinking it provides a great forum to discuss the medicinal properties

of undefined substances. In fact, I think discussing the " energetics "

of cannabis and other commonly used substances can ONLY be bonafide

when done this way, rather than relying on the proclamations of

isolated " experts " who write their personal opinions, but do not

subject them to debate. For example, with all due respect to various

writers who have done pioneering work about the TCM properties of

western herbs,far too much weight is given to those works as if they

are somehow as valid as the chinese materia medica. They are starting

places for debate, nothing more and nothing less. Only dialog will get

anywhere near the " truth " in these matters.

 

[Guest guest]

Why discuss the properties of cannabis at all, then? It doesn't really matter what cannabis does. It only matters what the patient presents with, right? If they have stomach fire, treat it. If they have dampness, treat it.

>>>I do not disagree but I also think its important to not assume that what ever the clinical "presentation" eg. w/ stomach fire or dampness etc then treating it always works. If we open discussion on actual cases we might be able to explore other avenues. Again unfortunately my experience in China and US is that the TCM paradigm has much to develop and this is just another place in which this can be done. I do not disagree w/ energetic theoretical conversation and this is part of the process of development but I think clinical outcome is always the final word and therefor we should not miss the opportunity of this open forum.

Alon

[Guest guest]

on 12/27/00 7:37 PM, at wrote:

 

>>

>> Systems of correspondence are a double-edged sword. On one hand, one cannot

>> diagnose a patient in CM without them.. . . .on the other hand, they can

>> easily be used as to rationalize sloppy thinking if not used properly.

>

>

> Why discuss the properties of cannabis at all, then? It doesn't really

> matter what cannabis does. It only matters what the patient presents

> with, right? If they have stomach fire, treat it. If they have

> dampness, treat it. Etiologies are only possibilities. However,

> understanding the substance can allow us to compensate for its use

> prior to the appearance of sx or even use it as a medicinal. We can

> also use this information to give appropriate lifestyle advice.

 

I don't know why you think my point above was to discourage this type of

discussion. . . ..I think this cannabis discussion is great, and I have

enjoyed hearing all the different points of view. In situations where we

have to discover new information about substances, this type of discussion

is not only interesting, but necessary. I was simply referring to arbitrary

diagnosis, where some practitioners will fudge together something and treat

without really dealing with the situation at hand.

>

> This list (obviously) is not just to discuss cases and I was actually

> thinking it provides a great forum to discuss the medicinal properties

> of undefined substances. In fact, I think discussing the " energetics "

> of cannabis and other commonly used substances can ONLY be bonafide

> when done this way, rather than relying on the proclamations of

> isolated " experts " who write their personal opinions, but do not

> subject them to debate. For example, with all due respect to various

> writers who have done pioneering work about the TCM properties of

> western herbs,far too much weight is given to those works as if they

> are somehow as valid as the chinese materia medica. They are starting

> places for debate, nothing more and nothing less. Only dialog will get

> anywhere near the " truth " in these matters.

 

 

Of course not. It is a great discussion, and, yes, sharing the information

in this way is far superior than reading someone's isolated opinion in an

'authoritative' text. I am hoping this discussion will continue on other

substances as well, such as coffee, cocaine, echinacea and prednisone, among

other things.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

 

 

>

> I don't know why you think my point above was to discourage this type of

> discussion. . .

 

Sorry Zev

 

I didn't think or mean that at all. I was actually using your quote to

contrast Alons, who suggested we should get back to cases. My

hyperbole failed, alas.