Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 on 1/4/01 2:44 PM, Will at will wrote: > > <<I think that not using the term gan qi yu/liver qi vacuity is an omission > through oversimplification of terminology, not a conscious choice to delete > it. See Qin Bo-wei Anthology. Qin Bo-wei, one of the architects of modern > TCM, has a broad range of patterns for liver disorders in his text. Somehow > in the Western textbooks, those patterns were edited greatly, causing a > regrettable loss of detail for the practitioner and his/her ability to > diagnose with a full deck of cards.>> > > Zev.....Qin Bo-wei discusses entities of Qi Yu and Qi Xu seperately, I also > see them exist independantly in the clinic. There is a tendency for them to > co-exist so I can understand the development of such a convention. Where do > you find the appearance of the innadevertant divergance of these two terms? Will, that was a typo, my apologies. It should read " gan qi XU/liver qi vacuity. > > Of the practitioners I have had contact with since the beginning of my > practice in the early eighties, John Shen (and students) and Tiande Yang are > the only ones who have stated " there is a Liver Qi Xu " . This is especially > true of the recent crop of graduates from state approved TCM schools in the > PRC who may state " I have never heard of Liver Qi Xu " . So, while Qin Bowei may > be a patriarch of the > current TCM styles, the full body of his teachings have not reached the > mainstream here in the US or the PRC (evidence of this is the large number of > students trained by practitioners from the PRC who have no awareness of this > pattern). This is true. But since he is one of the 'architects' of modern TCM, it would make sense that the mainstream should be exposed to his work. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 Zev <<I have seen the liver pulse soft from long-term marijuana use.>> The pulse I refer to as empty is one without root. It may have a tremendous amount of tension and hardness if there is concomitant stagnation of Qi with resultant heat. <<I think that not using the term gan qi yu/liver qi vacuity is an omission through oversimplification of terminology, not a conscious choice to delete it. See Qin Bo-wei Anthology. Qin Bo-wei, one of the architects of modern TCM, has a broad range of patterns for liver disorders in his text. Somehow in the Western textbooks, those patterns were edited greatly, causing a regrettable loss of detail for the practitioner and his/her ability to diagnose with a full deck of cards.>> Zev.....Qin Bo-wei discusses entities of Qi Yu and Qi Xu seperately, I also see them exist independantly in the clinic. There is a tendency for them to co-exist so I can understand the development of such a convention. Where do you find the appearance of the innadevertant divergance of these two terms? Of the practitioners I have had contact with since the beginning of my practice in the early eighties, John Shen (and students) and Tiande Yang are the only ones who have stated " there is a Liver Qi Xu " . This is especially true of the recent crop of graduates from state approved TCM schools in the PRC who may state " I have never heard of Liver Qi Xu " . So, while Qin Bowei may be a patriarch of the current TCM styles, the full body of his teachings have not reached the mainstream here in the US or the PRC (evidence of this is the large number of students trained by practitioners from the PRC who have no awareness of this pattern). <<Can you tell me the difference between Liver Qi Xu and Gall Bladder Qi Xu? Signs, symptoms, formula?>> Al...chapter eight of the Ling Shu discusses functions related to normal Zang Fu physiology. Qi Xu may be associated with diminished capacity of any function listed therein. This method may provide a more whole perception of how the organ function is diminished when the Qi is Xu. It is also useful to consider this material when examining lists of symptoms such as Zev gave from Qin Bo-wei. I agree with Zev's formula choices. Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang works. I can't cite the page number, but Li Dong Yuan lists Huang Qi as Boosting Liver Qi. Will Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 >At 2:44 PM -0800 1/4/01, Will wrote: >I agree with Zev's formula choices. Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang works. I >can't cite the page number, but Li Dong Yuan lists Huang Qi as >Boosting Liver Qi. -- Are you saying that Li is recommending BXYQT for liver vacuity, or any other liver pattern for that matter? When you say it works, what do you mean? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 , " " < zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > > This is true. But since he is one of the 'architects' of modern TCM, it > would make sense that the mainstream should be exposed to his work. > > > I think you guys should consider the possibility that when TCM was standardized, Qin bo wei was a contributor but surely did not have the last word. In fact, everything was done by committee. Perhaps the committee decided that liver qi xu was not a discrete pattern, but rather a combination of spleen qi xu and liver blood xu. Perhaps chip could comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 on 1/4/01 10:23 PM, at wrote: > , " " < > zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > >> >> This is true. But since he is one of the 'architects' of modern TCM, it >> would make sense that the mainstream should be exposed to his work. >>> >> > > I think you guys should consider the possibility that when TCM was > standardized, Qin bo wei was a contributor but surely did not have the > last word. In fact, everything was done by committee. Perhaps the > committee decided that liver qi xu was not a discrete pattern, but > rather a combination of spleen qi xu and liver blood xu. Perhaps chip > could comment. > > I was thinking in a more general sense, that the presentation in English of many textbooks seems to be quite edited down from what is available in other texts, such as Qin Bo-wei. I understand that liver qi xu is a relatively minor pattern that is subsumed in other patterns. For me, it is simply wanting to paint with a full palette of colors available. Even if I don't use the color 'rust' too often, I'd still like to have it there to use when necessary. The more tools we have available for pattern identification, the better. Many of the English language textbooks seem to be missing a lot of the detail necessary to make reasonably detailed diagnoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2001 Report Share Posted January 6, 2001 Will wrote: > > Zev > <<I have seen the liver pulse soft from long-term marijuana use.>> > > The pulse I refer to as empty is one without root. It may have a tremendous amount of tension and hardness if there is concomitant stagnation of Qi with resultant heat. Has anybody seen pulses become more healthy? Like, for all the dryness syndromes that seem to be associated with marijuana use, cold that not be beneficial to someone with dampness? And what about the whole rebellious stomach qi issue as pot is used for nausea and vomiting? Can we come up with a short list of medicinal attibutes? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2001 Report Share Posted January 6, 2001 on 1/6/01 3:23 PM, Al Stone at alstone wrote: .. > > Has anybody seen pulses become more healthy? Like, for all the dryness > syndromes that seem to be associated with marijuana use, cold that not > be beneficial to someone with dampness? > > And what about the whole rebellious stomach qi issue as pot is used for > nausea and vomiting? > > Can we come up with a short list of medicinal attibutes? Al, I believe at the beginning of this discussion, we discussed medicinal benefits of marijuana as part of a dialogue with posts from myself, Will, Rory and yourself. Check back to them, you'll find a list there. I think the issue is that marijuana is a powerful medicinal, and its use recreationally pushes pulses in unusual directions, because of the high doses. In addition, Chinese internal medicine is based on pattern diagnosis and polypharmacy, the combinations of medicinals in formulas to match disease patterns. Many medicinals would create unusual iatrogenic effects if used alone, regularly, and in large dosages, if used alone, in large doses, and without regard to the constitution and pattern of the patient (perhaps not as dramatically as marijuana in many cases). In conclusion, many people are self-medicating to the point of loss of internal equilibrium with marijuana. Most substances in nature are neither intrinsically good or bad in and of themselves, good or bad is in how we utilize them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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