Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 As everyone knows, much of western medicine is based upon consensus rather than experimental evidence. this includes the use of hemodialysis and drug treatment of malignant hypertension to control stroke. these approaches have not been studied according to the standards requested of us to apply within our own field. Interestingly, the reasons are the same as why the chinese do so-called " poor " research. It is considered unethical to do such studies when there is universal agreement amongst practitioners about their efficacy. However, a movement is growing to challenge certain clinical myths and replace them with evidence based medicine. for a look at this approach amongst our western med peers, check out this link http://www.cyberounds.com/conferences/nephrology/ -- Chinese Herbal Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Ummmm...not sure why you use the example of hemodialysis. I must say that, as a dialysis patient myself, I have seen quite a bit of western medical research on various aspects of dialysis, including outcome research on benefits of shorter vs. longer running time, effectiveness of different types of synthetic kidneys, and the use of formaldehyde vs. citric acid as a dialysate. At least with regard to hemodialysis, I'd say the medicine is based on research. Perhaps one area where consensus comes up is that the runs in Europe are far longer than the US, probably because of health care costs. People live longer when dialysis treatments last longer, which is why many western European countries' nephrologists require longer run times. (American docs seem less anxious about run times). Jeff >Todd < > >cha > consensus vs. evidence >Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:04:43 -0800 > >As everyone knows, much of western medicine is based upon consensus >rather than experimental evidence. this includes the use of >hemodialysis and drug treatment of malignant hypertension to control >stroke. these approaches have not been studied according to the >standards requested of us to apply within our own field. Interestingly, >the reasons are the same as why the chinese do so-called " poor " >research. It is considered unethical to do such studies when there is >universal agreement amongst practitioners about their efficacy. >However, a movement is growing to challenge certain clinical myths and >replace them with evidence based medicine. for a look at this approach >amongst our western med peers, check out this link > >http://www.cyberounds.com/conferences/nephrology/ > >-- > >Director >Chinese Herbal Medicine > > > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 , " Jeff Gould " <jeffgould@h...> wrote: > Ummmm...not sure why you use the example of hemodialysis. All I can say is check out the link. It is not my personal opinion, but that of the research analysts. What has never been studied is comparison of a control group versus an experimental group, for ethical reasons. Outcomes research does not use a control. But if its good enough for them,it should be good enough for us, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2001 Report Share Posted January 18, 2001 Outcomes research does not use a control. But if its good enough for them,it should be good enough for us, too >>>Out come research is acceptable if done correctly and if objectives are used alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2001 Report Share Posted January 21, 2001 At 2:29 AM +0000 1/18/01, Jeff Gould wrote: >Perhaps one area where consensus comes up is that the >runs in Europe are far longer than the US, probably because of health care >costs. People live longer when dialysis treatments last longer, which is >why many western European countries' nephrologists require longer run times. > (American docs seem less anxious about run times). --- The conclusion I draw from your statement here is that US doctors care less about their patient's lives than do European doctors. Is that what you are suggesting? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2001 Report Share Posted January 21, 2001 >At 2:29 AM +0000 1/18/01, Jeff Gould wrote: > >Perhaps one area where consensus comes up is that the > >runs in Europe are far longer than the US, probably because of health >care > >costs. People live longer when dialysis treatments last longer, which is > >why many western European countries' nephrologists require longer run >times. > > (American docs seem less anxious about run times). >--- > >The conclusion I draw from your statement here is that US doctors >care less about their patient's lives than do European doctors. Is >that what you are suggesting? > >Rory I don't know that I'd go that far, but...here's my take. If you are going to have a chronic degenerative disease in the US, end stage renal disease is the way to go. Three months after you are on hemodialysis, you become eligible for medicare, regardless of your age. Medicare pays for 80% of all your medical expenses (not just those direclty related to dialysis). Of course, each dialysis run costs around $250-300, I cannot remember, and it does also depend upon what medications you also require. Depending upon the state in which you live, you may also be eligible to purchase supplemental insurance for the remaining 20%, which is most often a state's Blue Cross program. That will pay the rest, minus a $100 once a year deductable. Sounds good for the patient, right? Well it is. But for the companies providing the dialysis, the fee set for payments by medicare/HCFA are from (I think, but cannot remember the exact date) 1982 or 83? So as a result, while medical costs have skyrocketed, and while there is a good profit to be had by running a dialysis clinic, it has not risen along with most of medical costs. So there are certain things that might benefit patients, such as longer runs in certain cases, which are not provided, because the longer runs would result in zero profit for the company by requiring additional pay for dialysis techs. As it is, most companies have dramatically decreased the number of nurses on duty and replaced them with techs who have far less training. (I would say that I have received exceptional health care since the first day I was put on a machine, which'll be two years in July). Does this mean American doctors care less? No, but I don't think anyone who works to promote health care, whether physicians or us, should do so for free. The people running the dialysis clinics (which in many cases are owned by physicians) shouldn't have to pay for the longer runs out of reasonable profits or their own pockets. Don't know if this answers the question or not. Jeff _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 , " Jeff Gould " <jeffgould@h...> > > I don't know that I'd go that far, but...here's my take. If you are going > to have a chronic degenerative disease in the US, end stage renal disease is > the way to go. this is a general statement, not directed at all to Jeff's specific case. It may not apply to him. My herb teachr, Li Wei, was medical doctor in china during the 80's. she was chief of renal pathology at Anhui Provincial Hospital. at that time, access to dialysis was very limited in china (it may still be, I'm not sure). without dialysis, her hands were tied with many of her pateints,as western medicine still has little else to offer in this regard. It was becasue of this that she begun to fall back on her traditional training in TCM. Her father was a " famous old doctor " and she had learned TCM from age 10, started seeing patients at age 14. she found that in many cases of chronic renal failure, chinese herbal medicine was effective at halting the disease and even restoring kidney function. While I am not sure at what stage these patients were, I do know that she used modern lab tests to evaluate kidney function. she did not just rely on tongue and pulse. She treated patients according to TCM bianzheng, but almost always added dong chong xia cao to the formulas. I saw a number of dialysis patients have normal urination restored here in the states. I did not do longterm followup, though. I would not recommend substituting herbs for dialysis and many docs will not allow their pateints to take herbs becasue of unknown effects on kidney function. this has been exacerbated by the careless posturing on the aristolochic acid issue by some american px, as well. We just can't be trusted to protect public safety in this area. However, if you have the opportunity, the key, as usual, is dosage. Li wei always said the failure of therapy in such cases almost invariably involves too LOW dosage of herbs. Dong chong xia cao is expensive and only high quality will work, not the crap from grocery stores. But formulas should use the upper end of dose range as listed in Bensky and the entire rx should be about 100 grams per day. If you have tried low dose herb protocols for renal failure without success, you haven't really tried at all yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Does this mean American doctors care less? No, but I don't think anyone who works to promote health care, whether physicians or us, should do so for free. The people running the dialysis clinics (which in many cases are owned by physicians) shouldn't have to pay for the longer runs out of reasonable profits or their own pockets. Don't know if this answers the question or not. >>>>This is true across the board of American care these days Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 I never treat dialysis patients, because of concern on either flushing out of the benefits of herbal substances, or concentration of certain salts and solids in the body from the process. I do have a few late stage kidney disease patients who are doing well. One was just starting dialysis six years ago when she came in, and she decided to stop on her own. I have treated her twice a week during this time (this is what is required to keep her system up), and she is doing well with acupuncture and a lot of moxabustion. She also takes herbs for the kidneys and spleen as well. She was born with one kidney, which took a lot of burden, and an unusually incomplete digestive system which required 17 surgeries to construct. CM definitely has a good track record here. on 1/23/01 9:12 AM, at wrote: > > My herb teachr, Li Wei, was medical doctor in china during the 80's. > she was chief of renal pathology at Anhui Provincial Hospital. at that > time, access to dialysis was very limited in china (it may still be, > I'm not sure). without dialysis, her hands were tied with many of her > pateints,as western medicine still has little else to offer in this > regard. It was becasue of this that she begun to fall back on her > traditional training in TCM. Her father was a " famous old doctor " and > she had learned TCM from age 10, started seeing patients at age 14. > she found that in many cases of chronic renal failure, chinese herbal > medicine was effective at halting the disease and even restoring kidney > function. While I am not sure at what stage these patients were, I do > know that she used modern lab tests to evaluate kidney function. she > did not just rely on tongue and pulse. She treated patients according > to TCM bianzheng, but almost always added dong chong xia cao to the > formulas. I saw a number of dialysis patients have normal urination > restored here in the states. I did not do longterm followup, though. > I would not recommend substituting herbs for dialysis and many docs > will not allow their pateints to take herbs becasue of unknown effects > on kidney function. this has been exacerbated by the careless posturing > on the aristolochic acid issue by some american px, as well. We just > can't be trusted to protect public safety in this area. However, if > you have the opportunity, the key, as usual, is dosage. Li wei always > said the failure of therapy in such cases almost invariably involves > too LOW dosage of herbs. Dong chong xia cao is expensive and only high > quality will work, not the crap from grocery stores. But formulas > should use the upper end of dose range as listed in Bensky and the > entire rx should be about 100 grams per day. If you have tried low > dose herb protocols for renal failure without success, you haven't > really tried at all yet. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 CM definitely has a good track record here.>>>>What type of diet is she on. Many patients can stay off dialysis if they are on a low protein diet. Monks on low protein diets with renal frailer often survive w/out dialysis. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 on 1/23/01 11:31 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote: CM definitely has a good track record here. >>>>What type of diet is she on. Many patients can stay off dialysis if they are on a low protein diet. Monks on low protein diets with renal frailer often survive w/out dialysis. Alon Yes, she is on low protein diet. . .but occasionally has carbohydrate binges, largely connected with her multiple gut/stomach surgeries. . . it is hard for her to tell when she is satisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 ÿþ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 on 1/23/01 2:24 PM, ALON MARCUS at alonmarcus wrote: ÿ<thorn> For some reason, this message didn't come through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 For some reason, this message didn't come through.>>>>>>I think this was about a book from blue poppy called treatment of disease by TCM or something like that. Its a great 7 book series that categorize disease by TCM disease names. The treatments are clear OM pattern w/out any of the common theoretical differentiations so common in many other books. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 By the way- on the thread of flushing things out: here's an interesting case: I have a patient w hep C. I've treated him for years w/ the usual suspects. his enzymes have been normal for years and his viral load consistently reducing. He got some pre-op testing for knee surgery, only to discover his enzymes were very elevated. (750 and 980 I thank). Long try short- it turns out that he had begun to drink distilled water- which leached the herbs out. as soon as he discontinued the distilled water, then enzymes began to go down again. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 on 1/23/01 4:08 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote: For some reason, this message didn't come through. >>>>>>I think this was about a book from blue poppy called treatment of disease by TCM or something like that. Its a great 7 book series that categorize disease by TCM disease names. The treatments are clear OM pattern w/out any of the common theoretical differentiations so common in many other books. Alon This is one of the best series of books I've seen on TCM disease patterns. Really to the core stuff. Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Everyone, This is a GREAT 7 volume set that Alon is referring to. I believe it is an essential reference text. Very usable. Mark Reese - alonmarcus Tuesday, January 23, 2001 6:08 PM Re: consensus vs. evidence For some reason, this message didn't come through.>>>>>>I think this was about a book from blue poppy called treatment of disease by TCM or something like that. Its a great 7 book series that categorize disease by TCM disease names. The treatments are clear OM pattern w/out any of the common theoretical differentiations so common in many other books. AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 ÿþ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Actually, Wei Li was my teacher also and I folllowed her for awhile. She put me on dong chong xia cao for awhile. I purchased lab grown variety from People's Herbs (I think that's the name). Pretty inexpensive compared to raw. It was also 4:1 concentrate and probably the tastiest herb I ever had. While I have no way of knowing, I believe that I was able to postpone dialysis for a year or more. I only wish I had come across her sooner. She ALWAYS gives people with decreasing kidney function (as measured by creatinine clearance and BUY) this herb. Of particular note, on several occasions, as my worsened, I would have asthma-like attacks. I say asthma-like, because I had never really had asthma before. It was the kidney xu kind, that is, harder to inhale than exhale. When I started taking dong chong xia cao, it went away. This herb is said to tonify both Lung and Kidney. I hadn't heard that asthma symptoms are common with kidney failure, but for me, it was another interesting illustration of just how TCM theory makes sense in the real world. Jeff _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 ÿþ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Mycoherb has a great water/alcohol extraction of cordyceps/dong chong xia cao available at a very reasonable price. I've taken it and given patients this herb for years. Highly recommended. on 1/24/01 6:08 PM, Jeff Gould at jeffgould wrote: > Actually, Wei Li was my teacher also and I folllowed her for awhile. She > put me on dong chong xia cao for awhile. I purchased lab grown variety from > People's Herbs (I think that's the name). Pretty inexpensive compared to > raw. It was also 4:1 concentrate and probably the tastiest herb I ever had. > > While I have no way of knowing, I believe that I was able to postpone > dialysis for a year or more. I only wish I had come across her sooner. She > ALWAYS gives people with decreasing kidney function (as measured by > creatinine clearance and BUY) this herb. > > Of particular note, on several occasions, as my worsened, I would have > asthma-like attacks. I say asthma-like, because I had never really had > asthma before. It was the kidney xu kind, that is, harder to inhale than > exhale. When I started taking dong chong xia cao, it went away. This herb > is said to tonify both Lung and Kidney. I hadn't heard that asthma symptoms > are common with kidney failure, but for me, it was another interesting > illustration of just how TCM theory makes sense in the real world. > > Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 , " " < zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > on 1/23/01 4:08 PM, alonmarcus@w... at alonmarcus@w... wrote: > > For some reason, this message didn't come through. > > >>>>>>I think this was about a book from blue poppy called treatment of disease > by TCM or something like that. Its a great 7 book series that categorize > disease by TCM disease names. The treatments are clear OM pattern w/out any > of the common theoretical differentiations so common in many other books. > Alon > > This is one of the best series of books I've seen on TCM disease patterns. > Really to the core stuff. > > Z'ev I couldn't live without these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 , " Jeff Gould " <jeffgould@h...> wrote: > Actually, Wei Li was my teacher also and I folllowed her for awhile. Jeff I was supervising interns today and one asked me about a formula a patient had brought from her old clinic. The header said OCOM and the formula structure looked very familiar as did the handwriting. then at the bottom I saw Dr. Li's initials and I got a big smile across my face. Too bad she doesn't communicate so well, because she remains the best herbalist I have ever worked with. Her objectively proved success rate with chronic illness, as evidenced by lab testing, was so far beyond anyone I ever worked with. Nice to think of her twice in one day. Every time I dose an herb, I hear her words in my ear. " that's too low; it will never work " or " my father never uses more than 6 grams of chuan xiong; too strong " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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