Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 Dear Heiko: Even in lower doses, I would expect that the same result to occur---just taking a longer time. Although you didn't mention what was going on in the liver, you would expect that the lack of kidney yin was creating a problem with liver yin and blood---even without waiting for overt symptoms to be present, it should have been evident in the pulses. The mild abdomenal pain during her period sounds like an early indicator. This is a familiar scenario we see when deficient patients come in and they have been on " blood or liver cleansers " from other kinds of practitioners. Their symptoms disappear for a short time, then they get worse and decide to try someone else. If they're doing that practice for a long enough time and have a fairly stressful life, their spiral downward is even steeper. Taking smaller does with supportive formulas like Liu Wei Di Huang as you suggested would have been more productive. If you use raw herbs, Chai hu can be stir baked to reduce the diaphoretic action she was experiencing. Even though some practitioners are very cautious about using Chai hu, there should be no problem when the deficiencies are addressed first. But this raises an important question. In general, can you produce a homeopathic effect from a Chinese herbal formula without titrating it down the way homeopathic products are produced? Otherwise, I would expect smaller doses simply to be just that---smaller. Perhaps the confusion comes from having a tendency to see more meridian activity since there is less physical or biological action? I have used a homeopathic tincture of bear gallbladder made by New Vista; it contains a combination of 5x, 6x, 12x, 60, and 100x. It is mild but effective. Jim Ramholz , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: > I would like to share a case history that turned up at the college clinic the other day.Its not in the official CHA format as I hope the discussion will be about dosages of herbs and I have explained the case cleaqrly enough. > > Female age 40 presents with sinus and sore throat which started a week before and has stayed chronic.It started after driving up the coast for the weekend. > > Cycles normal, regular, sx low mild abd pain day before. > > sx temple headaches if too busy and stressed > > tinnitus if tired > flushed cheeks in afternoon > sx hot chest ,esp after shower > > Tongue red no coat > Pulse, kidney yin position thready,thin weak. > > This was a pretty classic yin xu case if I ever saw one. > > The students were keen to start acupuncture to Rx yin xu but I questioned her further. > Everything got worse for her after she started these pills!!! > > And she pulled out a bottle of xiao yao wan. > > A physiotherapist had prescibed them for her to " cleanse her liver " .She had gone to the physio a month earlier for shoulder and neck tension. I questioned her how did she feel on them? " Its hard to explain , not myself, actually I thought they were hyping me up , I wasn't > sleeping well and thought they were making me sweat at night. " > > The physio said this was because they were cleansing!! > > Anyway she stopped when she got the sore throat. > > So what is interesting about this is that she was taking ONLY 8 little ball bearing pills 2 times per day. > > Its clear to me that she is yin xu and xiao yao san because of chai hu in particular is contraindicated in yin xu . The pills aggravated the yin xu .When ever I have tried to subscibe patent pills to patients I never get any results ,because I felt they are too weak in action. Yet > here they can clearly aggravate if wrongly prescribed.Does this mean that they could benefit in those really low doses ,eg using liu wei di huang wan in a kid xu condition.........or does it mean a little bit of chai hu can go a long way if its wrongly prescibed. > > Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 , jramholz wrote: > > But this raises an important question. In general, can you produce a > homeopathic effect from a Chinese herbal formula without titrating it > down the way homeopathic products are produced? Otherwise, I would > expect smaller doses simply to be just that---smaller. Perhaps the > confusion comes from having a tendency to see more meridian activity > since there is less physical or biological action? > Good point Jim. Bob Felt also raised this issue offline, saying that homeopaths believe it is succussion,etc., not just low dose that yields subtle effects. Others have raised the pont that doing multiple modalities such as homeopathy,chinese herbology,acupuncture (especially frequently), nutrients, hormones, etc. all simultaneously decreases the need for high dosage herbs. I have generally done chinese herbs and nothing else on most patients. that may be the source of my bias. What do you generally do? how often do you do acupuncture? and is it possible to gauge what is actually working when multiple modalities are being done? so perhaps it is everything else and the herbs only play a small role, while in my case, it can be nothing but the herbs. and in my experience, low dose may work over time, but without doing regualr acupuncture, I find it difficult to hold onto patients unless I get results quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 Todd: I am primarily an acupuncturist---the Korean system I studied applies a combination of 5-elements and 6-Energies. Using it provides control over any detail of the condition, and by examining the pulses you can know how successful the treatment strategy is immediately. I use a small number of herbal formulas (about 20) that apply to most cases and can be used together, so blending an individual formula for a patient isn't necessary very often even though I carry a fairly complete pharmacy of individual concentrates from Spring Wind. Going back to the issue of small doses: by definition, how can someone call a small dose " homeopathic " unless it has been prepared homeopathically---succussed---even to the point that there is no longer any physical herbal material left? Where's Wiseman when you really need him? Jim Ramholz , @i... wrote: > , jramholz wrote: > > > > > But this raises an important question. In general, can you produce a > > homeopathic effect from a Chinese herbal formula without titrating it > > down the way homeopathic products are produced? Otherwise, I would > > expect smaller doses simply to be just that---smaller. Perhaps the > > confusion comes from having a tendency to see more meridian activity > > since there is less physical or biological action? > > > > Good point Jim. Bob Felt also raised this issue offline, saying that > homeopaths believe it is succussion,etc., not just low dose that yields > subtle effects. Others have raised the pont that doing multiple > modalities such as homeopathy,chinese herbology,acupuncture (especially > frequently), nutrients, hormones, etc. all simultaneously decreases the > need for high dosage herbs. I have generally done chinese herbs and > nothing else on most patients. that may be the source of my bias. > What do you generally do? how often do you do acupuncture? and is it > possible to gauge what is actually working when multiple modalities are > being done? so perhaps it is everything else and the herbs only play a > small role, while in my case, it can be nothing but the herbs. and in > my experience, low dose may work over time, but without doing regualr > acupuncture, I find it difficult to hold onto patients unless I get > results quickly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 on 2/14/01 3:49 PM, jramholz at jramholz wrote: > > Going back to the issue of small doses: by definition, how can > someone call a small dose " homeopathic " unless it has been prepared > homeopathically---succussed---even to the point that there is no longer > any physical herbal material left? Where's Wiseman when you really > need him? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > --You are right, Jim. A small dose is not homeopathic unless there is succussion. Dosage in Chinese medicine is based on pattern, constitution, age, season, specific medicinal and time factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 Others have raised the pont that doing multiple modalities such as homeopathy,chinese herbology,acupuncture (especially frequently), nutrients, hormones, etc. all simultaneously decreases the need for high dosage herbs. I have generally done chinese herbs and nothing else on most patients. that may be the source of my bias. What do you generally do? how often do you do acupuncture? and is it possible to gauge what is actually working when multiple modalities are being done? ---------------- I'm currently working in a residential center for women with eating disorders. They receive acupuncture, herbs, aromatherapy, flower essences, polarity therapy, Biofeedback, therapy, etc. and are seen by a naturopath, a nutritionist and a psychiatrist! Altogether it is a wonderful program and we get good results. Personally I think it is the synergistic effect of all the modalities. But I find it frustrating having so little direct feedback about what I do and also only seeing them for about 10 sessions. I wish it were possible to gauge what is actually working. Catherine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2001 Report Share Posted February 15, 2001 Catherine I think thats the point, I don't think one modality is trying or is better than the other.Its that they all work togehter to optimize the effect. In your case , the psycotherapy may help old patterns of anger etc , therby influencing liver qi, and then the acupuncture can be targeted to Tx the damp , the nutrition may improve spleen and adding all 3 is better than 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 3. Maybe in some cases it equals 4. For me TCM is still the starting point and the other stuff just makes TCM work better. I know with musculo skeletal stuff for example my TCM results are always better if they are seeing the osteopath as well. Catherine Hemenway wrote: Others have raised the pont that doing multiple modalities such as homeopathy,chinese herbology,acupuncture (especially frequently), nutrients, hormones, etc. all simultaneously decreases the need for high dosage herbs. I have generally done chinese herbs and nothing else on most patients. that may be the source of my bias. What do you generally do? how often do you do acupuncture? and is it possible to gauge what is actually working when multiple modalities are being done?----------------I'm currently working in a residential center for women with eating disorders. They receive acupuncture, herbs, aromatherapy, flower essences, polarity therapy, Biofeedback, therapy, etc. and are seen by a naturopath, a nutritionist and a psychiatrist! Altogether it is a wonderful program and we get good results. Personally I think it is the synergistic effect of all the modalities. But I find it frustrating having so little direct feedback about what I do and also only seeing them for about 10 sessions. I wish it were possible to gauge what is actually working. Catherine Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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