Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 I was having a debate with a colleague about the use of ban xia. Ban xia is one of my favorite herbs for phlegm and damp in both hot and cold conditions. It is of course one of the chief ingredients in the tonic formula liu jun zi tang. I feel that banxia is a strong medicinal substance and should be used medicinally only. So I argued that liu junzi tang was appropriate to treat symptomatic conditions of qi xu damp, but not to be used indefinitely for spleen xu patients. What I am referring to is more like kitchen medicine, where someone might take ren shen and sheng jiang in congee every day for a year. While sheng jiang and even chen pi are food, banxia is decidedly not and I did not think it should be consumed like a food in this way. Am I being overly cautious or is this correct? -- Chinese Herbal Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 on 2/17/01 2:21 PM, Todd at wrote: > I was having a debate with a colleague about the use of ban xia. Ban > xia is one of my favorite herbs for phlegm and damp in both hot and cold > conditions. It is of course one of the chief ingredients in the tonic > formula liu jun zi tang. I feel that banxia is a strong medicinal > substance and should be used medicinally only. So I argued that liu > junzi tang was appropriate to treat symptomatic conditions of qi xu > damp, but not to be used indefinitely for spleen xu patients. What I am > referring to is more like kitchen medicine, where someone might take ren > shen and sheng jiang in congee every day for a year. While sheng jiang > and even chen pi are food, banxia is decidedly not and I did not think > it should be consumed like a food in this way. Am I being overly > cautious or is this correct? > No, ban xia is listed as an inferior class medicinal (i.e. toxic) back to the Divine Farmer's Materia Medica. I agree, it should not be used indiscriminately. Interestingly, however, it is mentioned in the Nei Jing combined with millet for insomnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:21 PM cha ban xia " banxia is decidedly not (food) and I did not think it should be consumed like a food in this way. Am I being overly cautious or is this correct? " New Message: As you are probably aware, the raw herb is considered significantly more toxic than the prepared, which is what most practitioners are getting, prepared. Although the prepared form is also considered problematic. Raw ginger seems to antedote as was alluded to by Dr Powalka. Any opinions on a safer yet effective second choice for longer term use? I have another safety question regarding perilla (su zi). There have been some serious problems in farm animals that got into the perilla patch but I have not seen or heard of any problems in humans. Any reports of problems or cause for concern? In the 1990 Chinese Pharmacopea list of herbs with safety considerations su zi is not on the list, and neither is guang fang ji. The 13 week subchronic oral tox study (abstract below) also doesn't indicate problems. However there peer reviewed data that confirms toxicity in certain farm animals. I have copied some abstracts below for those interested. Stephen Safety and Toxicity **********JOURNAL OF NUTRITION****** Yun L Onodera H Takagi H Koujitani T Yasuhara K Mitsumori K Hirose M [A 13-week subchronic oral toxicity study of Perilla extracts in F344 rats] In: Kokuritsu Iyakuhin Shokuhin Eisei Kenkyusho Hokoku (1999)(117):104-7 A 13-week subchronic oral toxicity study of Perilla extracts in drinking water containing 0%, 2.5%, 5% and 10% extracts was performed in both sexes of F344 rats. Rats were randomly divided into 4 groups each consisting of 10 males and 10 females. No animals died during the period of administration. There were no treatment-related changes in body weight gain or in hematological or blood biochemistry values. Nor were any treatment-related histopathological changes observed in the highest dose group. These findings indicate that ingestion of 10% Perilla extracts in drinking water for 13-week does not cause any toxicological changes in rats. *****SCIENCE***** Wilson BJ Garst JE Linnabary RD Channell RB Perilla ketone: a potent lung toxin from the mint plant, Perilla frutescens Britton. In: Science (1977 Aug 5) 197(4303):573-4 ISSN: 0036-8075 Perilla ketone, from the essential oil of Perilla frutescens, is a potent pulmonary edemagenic agent for laboratory animals and livestock. This finding would account for reported effects of the plant on grazing cattle. The use of perilla in oriental foods and medicinal preparations suggests possible hazards to human health as well. *****VETERINARY AND HUMAN TOXICOLOGY***** Kerr LA Johnson BJ Burrows GE Intoxication of cattle by Perilla frutescens (purple mint). In: Vet Hum Toxicol (1986 Oct) 28(5):412-6 Perilla frutescens or purple mint has been associated with atypical interstitial pneumonia (AIP) for a quarter of a century. The amount and the stage of the plant required to produce AIP have been much debated. A field case in which catastrophic loses occurred in cattle ingesting hay containing purple mint showed that more than the green plants have the capability of producing atypical interstitial pneumonia. In this study, Perilla frutescens produced atypical interstitial pneumonia in three of five calves to which it was given. The amount required to produce the syndrome ranged from 2.3 to 15.5 kg of green seed stage mint and 11.8 kg of mint hay. The toxic syndromes were similar in signs, but quite different in duration. Necropsy examinations showed varied amounts of pulmonary emphysema and edema. Two of the three affected animals' lungs histologically displayed a marked proliferation of Type II pneumocytes. The flowering or seed parts of perilla mint were found by high pressure liquid chromatographic analysis to contain the highest concentration of perilla ketone, considered the most toxic agent involved. This stage of plant growth was also shown to be the most toxic in our calf feeding trial. Calves fed the flowering plant developed the toxic syndrome while those fed earlier plants (collected before seed stage) and late plants (collected after frost) remained asymptomatic. The time of year when perilla reaches the seed stage often corresponds to periods when pasture grass is scarce forcing cattle to consume plants not normally eaten when ample desirable forage is available.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS) Mechanism of Action *****NEPHRON***** Makino T Ono T Muso E Honda G Sasayama S Suppressive effects of Perilla frutescens on spontaneous IgA nephropathy in ddY mice. In: Nephron (1999 Sep) 83(1):40-6 Perilla frutescens (perilla) is a common herb used in Japan for garnishing raw seafood to protect the alimentary tract from inflammatory diseases. The present study was performed to investigate whether or not perilla prevents the development of lesions of IgA nephropathy in ddY mice which spontaneously develop this disease. After orally administering perilla extract to ddY mice from 8 to 42 weeks of age, the changes in urine, serum, and kidneys were evaluated. Perilla extract significantly suppressed proteinuria and glomerular IgA deposition (p < 0.01 and p < 0.05, respectively). The decreased serum IgA concentration in perilla-treated mice showed a significant correlation with glomerular IgA deposition. Such findings suggest that perilla reduced glomerular IgA deposition via suppression of IgA production in the serum. On the other hand, the nitric oxide concentration in the serum of perilla-treated mice was significantly higher than that observed in the controls. The addition of the sera of perilla-treated mice to quiescent cultured murine mesangial cells resulted in a cell proliferation which was less than in controls, suggesting that perilla might either directly prevent mesangial cell proliferation or prevent proliferation by regulating circulating cytokines. Such results indicate that perilla should prevent IgA nephropathy, thus representing a promising herbal medicine for glomerulonephritis. Institutional address: Department of Pharmacognosy Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences Graduate School of Medicine Kyoto University Kyoto Japan. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 , " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen@b...> wrote: > Any opinions on a > safer yet effective second choice for longer term use? > for tranforming damp and phlegm Sha ren comes to mind, but bai dou kou, a relative, also called white cardamon, has strong descending effect. this would probably be the best choice. Hou po,magnolia bark, is also very safe orally and also has strong descending effect. But bai dou kou would be best, because it actually used in cooking. Bai dou kou can also be combined with huo xiang/agastache, a member of the mint family that is extremely safe and also my favorite empirical anti-nausea herb. And finally the more obscure fo shou which is used for vomiting B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 I was under the general assumption that some chronic conditions would require the long-term use of a herbal formula - of course generally speaking. This is (I assume) acknowledging the fact that there will be indicators along the way showing either the success or failure of the herbal choice. This might lead to minor modifications, but as a whole the Rx might stay the same for a good 6 months. If so, then ban xia is a issue, since it is in so many fx.'s. Especially with one's dealing with damp/phlegm pathology, which as we know can be the most stubborn and enduring, ban xia is so often included. I also have heard a few teachers mentioning taking lui jun-zi tang as 'digestive' maintenance - long term use. - Rory Kerr [rorykerr] Sunday, February 18, 2001 9:28 AM Re: ban xia At 2:21 PM -0800 2/17/01, >I was having a debate with a colleague about the use of ban xia. Ban >xia is one of my favorite herbs for phlegm and damp in both hot and cold >conditions. It is of course one of the chief ingredients in the tonic >formula liu jun zi tang. I feel that banxia is a strong medicinal >substance and should be used medicinally only. So I argued that liu >junzi tang was appropriate to treat symptomatic conditions of qi xu >damp, but not to be used indefinitely for spleen xu patients...Am I >being overly cautious or is this correct? -- My approach to your question is slightly different, but I agree with your caution. The issue for me is not so much " should the patient take ban xia for a long time? " but rather does the pattern call for it? If I was giving liu jun zi tang it would be because the patient had symptoms, eg regurgitation, that ban xia could correct; if the patient's symptom was corrected, then there would no longer be a reason to descend the qi, and I would continue with the herbs that dry dampness (eg bai zhu, fuling). Continuing to descend the qi after it has been normalized, perhaps for prevention, seems to me to be risky, and I think ban xia always includes this function. If the patient's symptoms were not corrected, say after a month, I would assume that my diagnosis was faulty, and would try to find another approach. The issue of ban xia's toxiticity is less important to me as long as I feel I am using the herb appropriately in terms of pattern, and if I am doing that, then usually there is no reason to use it for extended periods. Rory Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 -- My approach to your question is slightly different, but I agree with your caution. The issue for me is not so much " should the patient take ban xia for a long time? " but rather does the pattern call for it? If I was giving liu jun zi tang it would be because the patient had symptoms, eg regurgitation, that ban xia could correct; if the patient's symptom was corrected, then there would no longer be a reason to descend the qi, and I would continue with the herbs that dry dampness (eg bai zhu, fuling). Continuing to descend the qi after it has been normalized, perhaps for prevention, seems to me to be risky, and I think ban xia always includes this function. If the patient's symptoms were not corrected, say after a month, I would assume that my diagnosis was faulty, and would try to find another approach. The issue of ban xia's toxiticity is less important to me as long as I feel I am using the herb appropriately in terms of pattern, and if I am doing that, then usually there is no reason to use it for extended periods. Rory I was under the general assumption that some chronic conditions would require the long-term use of the 'same' herbal formula - of course, generally speaking. This is (I assume) acknowledging the fact that there will be indicators along the way showing either the success or failure of the herbal choice. This might lead to minor modifications, but as a whole the Rx might stay the same for a good 6 months. If so, this ban xia is a issue, since it is in so many fx.'s. Especially when one is dealing with damp/phlegm pathology, which as we know can be quite stubborn and enduring, ban xia is so often included. I also have heard a few teachers mentioning taking lui jun-zi tang as 'digestive' maintenance - long term use. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 At 2:21 PM -0800 2/17/01, >I was having a debate with a colleague about the use of ban xia. Ban >xia is one of my favorite herbs for phlegm and damp in both hot and cold >conditions. It is of course one of the chief ingredients in the tonic >formula liu jun zi tang. I feel that banxia is a strong medicinal >substance and should be used medicinally only. So I argued that liu >junzi tang was appropriate to treat symptomatic conditions of qi xu >damp, but not to be used indefinitely for spleen xu patients...Am I >being overly cautious or is this correct? -- My approach to your question is slightly different, but I agree with your caution. The issue for me is not so much " should the patient take ban xia for a long time? " but rather does the pattern call for it? If I was giving liu jun zi tang it would be because the patient had symptoms, eg regurgitation, that ban xia could correct; if the patient's symptom was corrected, then there would no longer be a reason to descend the qi, and I would continue with the herbs that dry dampness (eg bai zhu, fuling). Continuing to descend the qi after it has been normalized, perhaps for prevention, seems to me to be risky, and I think ban xia always includes this function. If the patient's symptoms were not corrected, say after a month, I would assume that my diagnosis was faulty, and would try to find another approach. The issue of ban xia's toxiticity is less important to me as long as I feel I am using the herb appropriately in terms of pattern, and if I am doing that, then usually there is no reason to use it for extended periods. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 banxia is decidedly not and I did not thinkit should be consumed like a food in this way. Am I being overlycautious or is this correct?-->>>>The question with ban xia is the low level toxicity and if it should be used for a long time. I do not think any short term use in congee or liuunzi is a problem. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > My approach to your question is slightly different, but I agree with > your caution. The issue for me is not so much " should the patient > take ban xia for a long time? " but rather does the pattern call for > it? If I was giving liu jun zi tang it would be because the patient > had symptoms, eg regurgitation, that ban xia could correct; if the > patient's symptom was corrected, then there would no longer be a > reason to descend the qi, and I would continue with the herbs that > dry dampness (eg bai zhu, fuling). Continuing to descend the qi after > it has been normalized, perhaps for prevention, seems to me to be > risky, and I think ban xia always includes this function. If the > patient's symptoms were not corrected, say after a month, I would > assume that my diagnosis was faulty, and would try to find another > approach. The issue of ban xia's toxiticity is less important to me > as long as I feel I am using the herb appropriately in terms of > pattern, and if I am doing that, then usually there is no reason to > use it for extended periods. I agree completely with your assessment. Not so much the toxicity, but whether this decidedly medicinal herb would ever be indicated for indefinite use if it had been prescribed properly inthe first place. I say an unequivocal no. In fact, my herbs teacher felt that ban xia should be discontinued if the tongue coat loses its thickness and sliminess in the course of therapy or it will beginto injur fluids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 eg regurgitation, that ban xia could correct; >>>Just for descending function one can use other herbs. It must be primarily due to phlegm or damp Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 I agree completely with your assessment. Not so much the toxicity, but whether this decidedly medicinal herb would ever be indicated for indefinite use if it had been prescribed properly inthe first place. I say an unequivocal no. In fact, my herbs teacher felt that ban xia should be discontinued if the tongue coat loses its thickness and sliminess in the course of therapy or it will beginto injur fluids.>>>>>>What about patient with clear symptoms signs of phlegm but a thin or no fur on tongue Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: In fact, my herbs teacher felt that ban xia > should be discontinued if the tongue coat loses its thickness and > sliminess in the course of therapy or it will beginto injur fluids. > >>>>>>What about patient with clear symptoms signs of phlegm but a thin or no fur on tongue > Alon I was referring to a case of digestive disorder, but I did not mention that. Of course, ban xia can be used freely when phlegm is clearly present regardless of tongue coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 > I agree completely with your assessment. Not so much the toxicity, but > whether this decidedly medicinal herb would ever be indicated for > indefinite use if it had been prescribed properly inthe first place. I > say an unequivocal no. In fact, my herbs teacher felt that ban xia > should be discontinued if the tongue coat loses its thickness and > sliminess in the course of therapy or it will beginto injur fluids. > > > >The ban xia that we use is prepared- so the toxicity really isn't of great concern. One concern w/ overuse of Banxia is how drying it is. I agree w/ your teacher that it should be discontinued when the tongue is not coated. Banxia can often b overused in cough rx's too. In gen'l, I find it is far more effective to use herbs that thin sticky phlegm, then to focus on drying it. I rely on bei mu and gua lou for this. I ONLY use ban xia for coughs if the phlegm is very easily expectorated. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 on 2/18/01 3:59 PM, Cara Frank at herbbabe wrote: > > >> The ban xia that we use is prepared- so the toxicity really isn't of great > concern. One concern w/ overuse of Banxia is how drying it is. I agree w/ > your teacher that it should be discontinued when the tongue is not coated. > Banxia can often b overused in cough rx's too. In gen'l, I find it is far > more effective to use herbs that thin sticky phlegm, then to focus on drying > it. I rely on bei mu and gua lou for this. I ONLY use ban xia for coughs if > the phlegm is very easily expectorated. > > Cara > Heiner Fruehauf and Chip Chace both translated articles (by Zhang Xi-chun and another author whose citation I am having trouble finding) that indicated that ban xia/pinellia has a slippery nature that helps supplement both the spleen and kidney. By removing phlegm-damp, it helps restore the normal spleen qi, and by disinhibiting dampness, helps supplement the kidney. Zhang Xi-chun says that when the pungent nature of ban xia is used to counteract phlegm or damp, the normal moistening actions of spleen and kidney are benefited. To quote the Zhang Xi-chun article: . " Just as Cheng Wuyi has put it: " Pinellia is pungent and dispersing; it moves water and thus moistens kidney dryness. In other words, if dryness counteracts dampness, water becomes uninhibited, and if pungent flavors transform fluids, the dryness becomes moist " . He also says that it is used for vacuity constipation in the elderly, therefore, it is a mistake to say that it is excessively drying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 , <@o...> wrote: Especially with one's dealing with damp/phlegm > pathology, which as we know can be the most stubborn and enduring, ban xia > is so often included. I also have heard a few teachers mentioning taking > lui jun-zi tang as 'digestive' maintenance - long term use. > Jason I am sure you have heard this about Liu jun zi tang, but I question the wisdom. Consider who your source is and ask yourself if they have access to chinese sources or teachers or what they base this statement upon - mere conjecture, personal speculation or something else. While phlegm is indeed hard to resolve, there is still an end in sight if lifestyle is adjusted. If not, one still needs to question the wisdom of using liu jun zi (thus ban xia) indefinitely. Zev's point is well taken - I actually provided him the translations he quotes - thanks for the reminder about the true nature of ban xia. But his earlier point is also still well taken, which is that ban xia is an inferior herb, not an herb that nourishes life. Huang bai also benefits the kidneys in certain cases, but also would not be indicated indefinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2001 Report Share Posted February 18, 2001 on 2/18/01 8:10 PM, at wrote: > I am sure you have heard this about Liu jun zi tang, but I question the > wisdom. Consider who your source is and ask yourself if they have > access to chinese sources or teachers or what they base this statement > upon - mere conjecture, personal speculation or something else. While > phlegm is indeed hard to resolve, there is still an end in sight if > lifestyle is adjusted. If not, one still needs to question the wisdom > of using liu jun zi (thus ban xia) indefinitely. Zev's point is well > taken - I actually provided him the translations he quotes - thanks for > the reminder about the true nature of ban xia. But his earlier point > is also still well taken, which is that ban xia is an inferior herb, > not an herb that nourishes life. Huang bai also benefits the kidneys > in certain cases, but also would not be indicated indefinitely. > > Here is a quote from Wu Yan-Fang in Shanghai Journal of TCM, 1993, #6:28-30, translated by Chip Chace: " Ban xia's character is slippery and its flavor pungent and warm. It is slippery like saliva and capable of moistening. It circulates dampness and unblocks the bowels, disinhibits the orifices and drains urination. Its pungency reaches the qi to be able to transform phlegm, and this pungency facilitates its moistening. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 >> > > Heiner Fruehauf and Chip Chace both translated articles (by Zhang Xi-chun > and another author whose citation I am having trouble finding) that > indicated that ban xia/pinellia has a slippery nature that helps supplement > both the spleen and kidney. By removing phlegm-damp, it helps restore the > normal spleen qi, and by disinhibiting dampness, helps supplement the > kidney. Zhang Xi-chun says that when the pungent nature of ban xia is used > to counteract phlegm or damp, the normal moistening actions of spleen and > kidney are benefited. To quote the Zhang Xi-chun article: . " Just as Cheng > Wuyi has put it: " Pinellia is pungent and dispersing; it moves water and > thus moistens kidney dryness. In other words, if dryness counteracts > dampness, water becomes uninhibited, and if pungent flavors transform > fluids, the dryness becomes moist " . He also says that it is used for > vacuity constipation in the elderly, therefore, it is a mistake to say that > it is excessively drying. > > > > > My clinical experience tells me otherwise in the case of acute URI's. I treat a lot of bronchitis and I get great results. I agree with Zhang otherwise, and I do feel the a rx like LJZT can be used over an extended periods of time very safely and to good effect. Dampness in the body is like dampness in the basement. You have to keep running the dehumidifier- forever and ever or it just gets damp again. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 <Heiner Fruehauf and Chip Chace both translated articles (by Zhang Xi-chun and another author whose citation I am having trouble finding) that indicated that ban xia/pinellia has a slippery nature that helps supplement both the spleen and kidney. > But if as Andy Ellis pointed out, most of our Ban Xia isn't pinellia,does this still hold true? Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain " .- Oriah Mountain Dreamer ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 wrote: > (Zhang Xi-chun says) if pungent flavors transform fluids, the dryness becomes moist " . How does that work? Pungent opens the lungs and that stimulates proper dispersion and descension of the fluids? Does that suggest that phlegm/damp can be transformed into fluids or is the Ban Xia's exiting the lungs allowing them to regain their normal function of D & D? Also, what is it about Ban Xia's properties that provides its ability to dry the phlegm and damp which I think leads to all of its other actions such as allowing the lung and stomach qi to descend. Is it that the pungent flavor gets into the phlegm and breaks it up owing to the outward movement of pungent energy? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 on 2/19/01 10:12 AM, Karen S Vaughan at creationsgarden wrote: > <Heiner Fruehauf and Chip Chace both translated articles (by Zhang > Xi-chun > and another author whose citation I am having trouble finding) that > indicated that ban xia/pinellia has a slippery nature that helps > supplement > both the spleen and kidney. > > > But if as Andy Ellis pointed out, most of our Ban Xia isn't pinellia,does > this still hold true? It depends on the substitute. . . . .but, most likely not. I'll look into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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