Guest guest Posted February 22, 2001 Report Share Posted February 22, 2001 Chai Hu: What are some common subs people use for Chai hu... and why? Xiang fu, bo he etc..?? A friend was discussing qing hao as a substitute, I do not really understand this, at least according to Bensky. Bensky does not mention any lv qi moving properties. The only connection seems to be that it treats malarial disorders. This I believe is erroneously applied to subbing it for shao yang type disorders, where chai hu would traditionally be used. Comments? - To Cara. No, I said there was a group of upper body herbs ie herbs that work in the chest and I should not have include Dang Gui in the group as Bensky puts it in the lower area, sorry. These would be Tao ren, Hong hua, Chuan xiong also I would place Jie geng and Zhi ke in the group. But when used with Chai hu's ascending nature there is a counterbalance with Chuan Niu xi's descending nature. Chai hu has the ascending nature. >Cara Frank are you saying that tao ren/hong hua dang gui have an >ascending nature? >Cara > >Rod Le Blanc wrote: > >It would seem to have a kind of polarity action when working > > with the other upper body herbs ie Tao ren/Hong hua, Dang Gui, >especially > > Chai hu ascending nature. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2001 Report Share Posted February 22, 2001 Cara Frank [herbbabe] Friday, February 23, 2001 3:48 AM To: Re: chai hu on 2/22/01 10:35 AM, at wrote: Chai Hu: What are some common subs people use for Chai hu... and why? Xiang fu, bo he etc..?? A friend was discussing qing hao as a substitute, I do not really understand this, at least according to Bensky. Bensky does not mention any lv qi moving properties. The only connection seems to be that it treats malarial disorders. This I believe is erroneously applied to subbing it for shao yang type disorders, where chai hu would traditionally be used. Comments? - substitution depends on what you're doing w/ the chai hu: if you are moving the liver as you say then xiang fu is excellent. If you're thinking if qi stag in relation to PMS, then maybe yue ji hua is slightly more elegant. If you're using it's ascending properties, then think of sheng ma and jie geng.If it's ascending properties are a problem, then add niu xi. If you're thinking of it's anti-viral possibilities, then qing hao will work possibly- Could you please explain in tcm… and if you could be so kind, give an example of a formula and how qing hao would take the place of chai hu… or maybe hu zhang, long dan cao, huang qin. frankly, nearly all problems associated w/ chai hu could be avoided if bai shao were coupled w/ it. Not sure I agree, can we talk about this one? Where do you get this info.- and then are you saying that in any fx. that has chai hu you can add bai shao and whala.. Seems like a strange idea to me. ?? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 on 2/22/01 10:35 AM, at wrote: Chai Hu: What are some common subs people use for Chai hu... and why? Xiang fu, bo he etc..?? A friend was discussing qing hao as a substitute, I do not really understand this, at least according to Bensky. Bensky does not mention any lv qi moving properties. The only connection seems to be that it treats malarial disorders. This I believe is erroneously applied to subbing it for shao yang type disorders, where chai hu would traditionally be used. Comments? - substitution depends on what you're doing w/ the chai hu: if you are moving the liver as you say then xiang fu is excellent. If you're thinking if qi stag in relation to PMS, then maybe yue ji hua is slightly more elegant. If you're using it's ascending properties, then think of sheng ma and jie geng. If it's ascending properties are a problem, then add niu xi. If you're thinking of it's anti-viral possibilities, then qing hao will work possibly- or maybe hu zhang, long dan cao, huang qin. frankly, nearly all problems associated w/ chai hu could be avoided if bai shao were coupled w/ it. Its sour nature protects the yin and balances chai hu's drying aspect. Voila! an easy trick. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 Could you please explain in tcmŠ and if you could be so kind, give an example of a formula and how qing hao would take the place of chai huŠ or maybe hu zhang, long dan cao, huang qin. frankly, nearly all problems associated w/ chai hu could be avoided if bai shao were coupled w/ it. Not sure I agree, can we talk about this one? Where do you get this info.- and then are you saying that in any fx. that has chai hu you can add bai shao and whala.. Seems like a strange idea to me. ?? The substitution suggestions were something I just rattled off the top of my head. Any substitution is based on the s & s the the patient presents. I didn't invent the Bai shao coupling however. And I couldn't tell you where or from whom I learned it. Here's a qiuck case hx to illustrate my point: I have a P- 40yo woman w/ HCV. she mostly has symptoms of yin vacuity and blood stasis. I gave her a formula that included chai hu and she got a shao yang migraine immediately. took her off the herbs- the HA resolved- reintroduced them to be sure- the HA returned. So I modified the formulas w/ Bai shao. No more HA's. ( this is a very abbreviated case study- so don't get picky) So yes- I'm saying that in the majority of formulas where chai hu could be problematic, the addition of bai shao moderates its acrid, drying properties. Because most of the time when you want to use chai hu- there really is no other herb like it. Bai shao allows us to avoid chai hu's problems of HA, temper flare-ups- what have you. Regarding the qing hao-chai hu dance. QH vents summer heat.- which mimics chai hu's cool surface relieving qualities. so the common thread lies in their ability to expel hot pathogens. hope this helps, any other opinions? Cara - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 Recently I told the group of an adverse reaction when xiao yao san was presribed incorrectly to a yin xu patient. Even though the dosage was very small it still caused night sweats.Some people my react to a small dose, others may only react if taken over a longer time frame. I often put a larger dose of bai shao eg 15 grams compared to 3 grams of chai hu if I really need chai hu. Another herb to concider for qi stasis is mu hu die if chai hu is a problem. I don't have problems with that as it doesn't "plunder yin". Heiko Cara Frank wrote: Could you please explain in tcmŠ and if you could be so kind, give an example of a formula and how qing hao would take the place of chai huŠ or maybe hu zhang, long dan cao, huang qin. frankly, nearly all problems associated w/ chai hu could be avoided if bai shao were coupled w/ it. Not sure I agree, can we talk about this one? Where do you get this info.- and then are you saying that in any fx. that has chai hu you can add bai shao and whala.. Seems like a strange idea to me. ?? The substitution suggestions were something I just rattled off the top of my head. Any substitution is based on the s & s the the patient presents. I didn't invent the Bai shao coupling however. And I couldn't tell you where or from whom I learned it. Here's a qiuck case hx to illustrate my point: I have a P- 40yo woman w/ HCV. she mostly has symptoms of yin vacuity and blood stasis. I gave her a formula that included chai hu and she got a shao yang migraine immediately. took her off the herbs- the HA resolved- reintroduced them to be sure- the HA returned. So I modified the formulas w/ Bai shao. No more HA's. ( this is a very abbreviated case study- so don't get picky) So yes- I'm saying that in the majority of formulas where chai hu could be problematic, the addition of bai shao moderates its acrid, drying properties. Because most of the time when you want to use chai hu- there really is no other herb like it. Bai shao allows us to avoid chai hu's problems of HA, temper flare-ups- what have you. Regarding the qing hao-chai hu dance. QH vents summer heat.- which mimics chai hu's cool surface relieving qualities. so the common thread lies in their ability to expel hot pathogens. hope this helps, any other opinions? Cara - Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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