Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 In a message dated 2/23/01 8:53:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, jeffgould writes: << Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that she uses ai ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this function? >> No, but why would anyone want to induce dreaming? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 I must, shamefacedly, hang my head and report that my pulse taking training was woefully inadequate at OCOM (hmmm...big surprise). I have a question regarding a pulse phenomenon I've palpated a few times but have no idea how to interpret. Even describing it will possibly sound strange. Every now and again, I will experience what feels like almost an echo of a pulse. That is, I will place my fingers gently for the initial impression of the entire pulse before checking out things like specific locations or depths. What happens, or rather, what I experience, is that the pulse sensation will fade in and out in one location and I'll feel what I can only describe as an echo in a more radial position than where the actual pulse lies. This echo is usually weaker and also seems to come and go. When I try to feel it, the regular pulse comes back, usually stronger or more accessible, but even so, I'll feel this strange echo if I maintain contact for several seconds. 1) Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? 2) Am I supposed to try to determine the qualities of this echo or is it merely a non-important artifact? 3) If not an artifact, is it common to any particular condition? There seems no rhyme or reason as to when it shows up in terms of my own differentiation of the patient. I've felt it maybe 4-5 times in the past year. Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that she uses ai ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this function? I suspect it's not anything found in the TCM literature but might be a western function of the herb. Any ideas how we might explain such a function using TCM theory? It's acrid and warming, so it rises, going to your head and filling it with weird images, or something like that... Jeff _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 .. I've felt it maybe 4-5 times in the past year. Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that she uses ai ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this function? I suspect it's not anything found in the TCM literature but might be a western function of the herb. Any ideas how we might explain such a function using TCM theory? It's acrid and warming, so it rises, going to your head and filling it with weird images, or something like that... Jeff are increased dreams not just an indication that we are not entering R.E.M.? IF so the properties would explain the phenomenon...? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 At 2:21 AM +0000 2/24/01, Jeff Gould wrote: >Every now and again, I will experience what feels like almost an echo of a >pulse. That is, I will place my fingers gently for the initial impression >of the entire pulse before checking out things like specific locations or >depths. What happens, or rather, what I experience, is that the pulse >sensation will fade in and out in one location and I'll feel what I can only >describe as an echo in a more radial position than where the actual pulse >lies. This echo is usually weaker and also seems to come and go. When I >try to feel it, the regular pulse comes back, usually stronger or more >accessible, but even so, I'll feel this strange echo if I maintain contact >for several seconds. > >1) Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? >2) Am I supposed to try to determine the qualities of this echo or is it >merely a non-important artifact? >3) If not an artifact, is it common to any particular condition? There >seems no rhyme or reason as to when it shows up in terms of my own >differentiation of the patient. I've felt it maybe 4-5 times in the past >year. --- It's very difficult to know what someone else is feeling on a pulse from a verbal description. However, I'll offer the possibility that the pulse has variations in intensity (ie forcefulness), and amplitude, and that sometimes you are feeling the pulse stronger than at other times; the slight shift of position might simply be that you were not at the apex of the pulse to begin with. If this is the case, and it is only happening in one position, and the patient is properly at rest, then it suggests quite significant qi deficiency of, and perhaps damage to, the related organ. If this sensation is generalized to the whole pulse, it might suggest a heart disorder. It is important to know that the patient is at rest; recent exercise, or rushing to your clinic, or the stress of a busy day, or an acute illness, can create turbulence on the pulse - still worth taking note of, but less serious. A couple of questions: Is there a general underlying pulse quality associated with the sensation? Does the patient have this sensation consistently? Does it go away over the course of an acupuncture treatment? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Jeff, > Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that she uses ai > ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this > function? A fellow I met a while ago grew up in Idaho and spent a lot of time with native people there. When he first smelled moxa he remarked that it smelled just like the herb that those folks burned to induce dreaming as part of a medicine ritual they frequently performed. He said it was used at the end of a sweat. That was the first and last time I'd heard of this...until now. Not much to go on, but if you want to follow it up, you might check into that area. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 juliej8 wrote: > No, but why would anyone want to induce dreaming? I can think of a few really cool applications for this from within the shamanic paradigms. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Sorry Jeff I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 Rory said: >It's very difficult to know what someone else is feeling on a pulse >from a verbal description. However, I'll offer the possibility that >the pulse has variations in intensity (ie forcefulness), and >amplitude, and that sometimes you are feeling the pulse stronger than >at other times; the slight shift of position might simply be that you >were not at the apex of the pulse to begin with. No, I'd have to say this is not quite the case, because I'll continue to feel the echo even after I am without a doubt on the apex of the pulse. Occasionally, I have had pulses seem to change on me, going from what initially feels weak and then becoming strong with more of my focus on the pulse, but this is qualitatively different, (although one can see the difficulty I am having explaining the difference in this quality). Rory also said: >Itis important to know that the patient is at rest; recent exercise, or >rushing to your clinic, or the stress of a busy day, or an acute >illness, can create turbulence on the pulse - still worth taking note >of, but less serious. Yuppers, I've checked into this also. The few people whom I've seen have not rushed in or had much in the way of recent exercise. (The ones who do usually have a fairly distinct " exercisy " wirey pulse. >A couple of questions: > >Is there a general underlying pulse quality associated with the sensation? No, they have also been a little different and nothing stands out in the way of a particular pattern that I have noticed, although from now on I am going to do a more accurate job of noting the specifics to see if I can find a pattern. >Does the patient have this sensation consistently? At least two of them have had this phenomenon at least twice that I can remember off the top of my head. >Does it go away over the course of an acupuncture treatment? Here I am showing my own neglect, because, while I often check pulse during the treatment, I must confess that I do not do so consistently with everyone. However, with these kinds of pulses I will certainly be more likely to in the future. Thanks to everyone for comments thus far. They've been helpful. Jeff _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 on 2/23/01 6:21 PM, Jeff Gould at jeffgould wrote: > > Every now and again, I will experience what feels like almost an echo of a > pulse. That is, I will place my fingers gently for the initial impression > of the entire pulse before checking out things like specific locations or > depths. What happens, or rather, what I experience, is that the pulse > sensation will fade in and out in one location and I'll feel what I can only > describe as an echo in a more radial position than where the actual pulse > lies. This echo is usually weaker and also seems to come and go. When I > try to feel it, the regular pulse comes back, usually stronger or more > accessible, but even so, I'll feel this strange echo if I maintain contact > for several seconds. > > 1) Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Yes, I have experienced this phenomenon. There are a number of possibilities, depending on other details in the pulse. This may be one indication of a scattered pulse, or chaotic qi in the channels. > 2) Am I supposed to try to determine the qualities of this echo or is it > merely a non-important artifact? In my opinion, quite important. All the details are important. Sung Baek talks about this phenomenon, I believe, in his " Pulse Diagnosis " article, in one of the back issues of Oriental Medicine magazine. > 3) If not an artifact, is it common to any particular condition? There > seems no rhyme or reason as to when it shows up in terms of my own > differentiation of the patient. I've felt it maybe 4-5 times in the past > year. I have seen several patients with this type of pulse movement. Examples are on strong medications, such as prednisone or chemotherapy, and in autoimmune disease patients with chaotic qi in the channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 At 1:41 AM +0000 2/26/01, Jeff Gould wrote: >Rory said: >>It's very difficult to know what someone else is feeling on a pulse >>from a verbal description. However, I'll offer the possibility that >>the pulse has variations in intensity (ie forcefulness), and >>amplitude, and that sometimes you are feeling the pulse stronger than >>at other times; the slight shift of position might simply be that you >>were not at the apex of the pulse to begin with. > >No, I'd have to say this is not quite the case, because I'll continue to >feel the echo even after I am without a doubt on the apex of the pulse. >Occasionally, I have had pulses seem to change on me, going from what >initially feels weak and then becoming strong with more of my focus on the >pulse, but this is qualitatively different, (although one can see the >difficulty I am having explaining the difference in this quality). > --- So, it sounds like you are saying that the pulse is rising along two lines, the main artery is where you would expect it to be, and there is another pulse, less forceful, slightly lateral to it; sometimes they are felt together and sometimes not, but when not, they are synchronous (whereas an echo might not be). Your comment that it seems stronger when your focus is on it I take to mean that you are simply noticing it's strength, rather than that it is actually getting stronger, but I'm a little unclear as to whether the main pulse is seeming to come and go according to your focus, or whether it is actually doing so. I am going to assume the latter. There seems to be two things going on here: 1) the main pulse is fading in and out, & 2) the lateral pulsation. There are only two of the standard ~28 pulse qualities that have the pulse meeting the finger in different positions on different beats; they are the tight/jin mai, and the scattered/san mai. Neither of these feels like what you are describing, so we are looking at something different. There are also descriptions of 8 extra channel pulses in the literature that lie outside the normal trajectory, but again, they do not correspond to your description. I'm inclined to think of this as a disturbance, or instability, within a system that has weak energy to begin with (because the main pulse is fading in and out). I speculate that the origin of this disturbance could be emotional, or psychological, and/or have to do with relationship, either to self or to another. In any event this is where I would begin to dig around for clues. I hope you will be able to follow up with this. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Rory Can you expand upon the statement below. Rory Kerr wrote: > There are also descriptions of 8 extra channel > pulses in the literature that lie outside the normal trajectory, but > again, they do not correspond to your description. > > Thanks Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Heiko, In my experience, the eight extraordinary vessel pulses which you mention from the Bin Hu Mai Xue are only useful in a strictly acupuncture context. Yes, I do feel these on a not infrequent basis. However, since I don't do much acupuncture, I rarely have use for the information they convey. I believe that Miki Shima, on the other hand, makes regular use of these pulses in his acupuncture treatments. I also believe that there is more information on these pulses and clinical acupuncture protocols to go with them in Miki and Chip Chace's forthcoming book, Deeper Pathways of the Web. I know Miki teaches these pulses and what to do about them in his live classes. Bob Heiko Lade wrote: > Sorry Jeff > I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. > But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? > > Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 At 9:22 PM +1300 2/26/01, Heiko Lade wrote: >Can you expand upon the statement below. > >Rory Kerr wrote: > >> There are also descriptions of 8 extra channel >> pulses in the literature that lie outside the normal trajectory, but > > again, they do not correspond to your description. -- Both Wang shu-he (The Pulse Classic, Book One Chapter 4 and Book Ten, Blue Poppy) and Li shi-zhen (Pulse Diagnosis, p 55, Paradigm) describe 8 extra channel pulses. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Thanks Bob Looks like then I will have to get Chip's book before your recent Medical Psych. book!! Giovanni talks about herbs and formula specifically for 8 extra channels, in his gyno book. Do you/anyone know of any classic references to herbs and 8 extras.? Heiko bobflaws wrote: > Heiko, > > In my experience, the eight extraordinary vessel pulses which you mention from the Bin Hu Mai Xue are only useful in a strictly acupuncture context. Yes, I do feel these on a not infrequent basis. However, since I don't do much acupuncture, I rarely have use for the information > they convey. I believe that Miki Shima, on the other hand, makes regular use of these pulses in his acupuncture treatments. I also believe that there is more information on these pulses and clinical acupuncture protocols to go with them in Miki and Chip Chace's forthcoming book, > Deeper Pathways of the Web. I know Miki teaches these pulses and what to do about them in his live classes. > > Bob > > Heiko Lade wrote: > > > Sorry Jeff > > I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. > > But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? > > > > Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Heiko Lade wrote: > Do you/anyone know of any classic references to herbs and 8 extras.? There are a few herbs associated with the 8 extras found in my notes from an 8 extras seminar given by Dr. Yang at Emperor's. You can find the list here: http://Acupuncture.com/Herbology/Eight.htm -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 Thanks Al I have seen those before but I was wondering where the info came from. Is it someones idea or experience or does it stem from the classics. Heiko Al Stone wrote: > > > There are a few herbs associated with the 8 extras found in my notes > from an 8 extras seminar given by Dr. Yang at Emperor's. You can find > the list here: > http://Acupuncture.com/Herbology/Eight.htm > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 Heiko, I would look in Li Shi-zhen's Qi Qing Ba Mai Kao, his little book on the eight extraordinary vessels. Bob Heiko Lade wrote: > Thanks Bob > Looks like then I will have to get Chip's book before your recent Medical Psych. book!! > > Giovanni talks about herbs and formula specifically for 8 extra channels, in his gyno book. > > Do you/anyone know of any classic references to herbs and 8 extras.? > > Heiko > > bobflaws wrote: > > > Heiko, > > > > In my experience, the eight extraordinary vessel pulses which you mention from the Bin Hu Mai Xue are only useful in a strictly acupuncture context. Yes, I do feel these on a not infrequent basis. However, since I don't do much acupuncture, I rarely have use for the information > > they convey. I believe that Miki Shima, on the other hand, makes regular use of these pulses in his acupuncture treatments. I also believe that there is more information on these pulses and clinical acupuncture protocols to go with them in Miki and Chip Chace's forthcoming book, > > Deeper Pathways of the Web. I know Miki teaches these pulses and what to do about them in his live classes. > > > > Bob > > > > Heiko Lade wrote: > > > > > Sorry Jeff > > > I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. > > > But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? > > > > > > Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 This information came during a weekend seminar on the 8 extras. The source that Dr. Yang cited was the Zheng Jing Zhi Nan by a Dr. Doe (Dou? Do?) I'm not sure if that includes the herbs or not. This may also be from Dr. Yang's experience. Heiko Lade wrote: > > Thanks Al > > I have seen those before but I was wondering where the info came from. Is it someones idea or experience or does it stem from the classics. > > Heiko > > Al Stone wrote: > > > > > > > There are a few herbs associated with the 8 extras found in my notes > > from an 8 extras seminar given by Dr. Yang at Emperor's. You can find > > the list here: > > http://Acupuncture.com/Herbology/Eight.htm -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 If I remember correctly, the 8-Extra meridians are related to herbs in some editions of the Ben Cao Gang Mu. There's no reason why they shouldn't be used in herbalism. When seeing particular 8-Extra movements in the pulse, you can modify or choose herbal formulas based on the list. Jim Ramholz , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: > Thanks Bob > Looks like then I will have to get Chip's book before your recent Medical Psych. book!! > > Giovanni talks about herbs and formula specifically for 8 extra channels, in his gyno book. > > Do you/anyone know of any classic references to herbs and 8 extras.? > > Heiko > > bobflaws wrote: > > > Heiko, > > > > In my experience, the eight extraordinary vessel pulses which you mention from the Bin Hu Mai Xue are only useful in a strictly acupuncture context. Yes, I do feel these on a not infrequent basis. However, since I don't do much acupuncture, I rarely have use for the information > > they convey. I believe that Miki Shima, on the other hand, makes regular use of these pulses in his acupuncture treatments. I also believe that there is more information on these pulses and clinical acupuncture protocols to go with them in Miki and Chip Chace's forthcoming book, > > Deeper Pathways of the Web. I know Miki teaches these pulses and what to do about them in his live classes. > > > > Bob > > > > Heiko Lade wrote: > > > > > Sorry Jeff > > > I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. > > > But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? > > > > > > Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Thanks James Actually my father in law just sent me a ben cao gang mu .......now I just have to convince my wife to translate it. Heiko jramholz wrote: > If I remember correctly, the 8-Extra meridians are related to herbs in > some editions of the Ben Cao Gang Mu. There's no reason why they > shouldn't be used in herbalism. When seeing particular 8-Extra > movements in the pulse, you can modify or choose herbal formulas > based on the list. > > Jim Ramholz > > , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: > > Thanks Bob > > Looks like then I will have to get Chip's book before your recent > Medical Psych. book!! > > > > Giovanni talks about herbs and formula specifically for 8 extra > channels, in his gyno book. > > > > Do you/anyone know of any classic references to herbs and 8 > extras.? > > > > Heiko > > > > bobflaws wrote: > > > > > Heiko, > > > > > > In my experience, the eight extraordinary vessel pulses which you > mention from the Bin Hu Mai Xue are only useful in a strictly > acupuncture context. Yes, I do feel these on a not infrequent basis. > However, since I don't do much acupuncture, I rarely have use for the > information > > > they convey. I believe that Miki Shima, on the other hand, makes > regular use of these pulses in his acupuncture treatments. I also > believe that there is more information on these pulses and clinical > acupuncture protocols to go with them in Miki and Chip Chace's > forthcoming book, > > > Deeper Pathways of the Web. I know Miki teaches these pulses > and what to do about them in his live classes. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > Heiko Lade wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry Jeff > > > > I have no idea about the pulse you were feeling. > > > > But while on the subject of pulses, in the Flaws translation of Li > Shi Zhen's pulse book there is a section on pulse and the extraordinary > vessels. Is anyone on the list able to pick up 8 extra pulses .? > > > > > > > > Maybe add some experiences if you have done so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Jeff Gould [jeffgould] Sunday, February 25, 2001 5:41 PM Re: Calling All Pulse Masters No, I'd have to say this is not quite the case, because I'll continue to feel the echo even after I am without a doubt on the apex of the pulse. Occasionally, I have had pulses seem to change on me, going from what initially feels weak and then becoming strong with more of my focus on the pulse, but this is qualitatively different, (although one can see the difficulty I am having explaining the difference in this quality). Is this an element of choppiness? (this changing quality) -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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