Dreams/ was Calling All Pulse Masters

[Guest guest]

, juliej8@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 2/23/01 8:53:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> jeffgould@h... writes:

>

> <<

> Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that she uses ai

> ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this

> function? >>

>

> No, but why would anyone want to induce dreaming?

>

> Julie

 

An interesting point. In TCM, vivid dreams often suggest a heart

pathology. However, many folks believe dreaming is valuable and

desired to process their days events or merely they enjoy them. In

certain yogic traditions, dreams are considered a manifestation of the

astral plane. the astral plane is where thought can become reality

without the need for physical construction of that reality. In

contrast, waking reality requires the use of the body to carry out

thoughts and " create " them in the manifest world. Nature of course

exists independently, but human thought has led to everything else in

our culture throught the sweat of our brows. Because the astral plane

allows thought to become instant reality, it probably does indeed

manifest our unachieved desires and conflicts.

 

But perhaps to indulge this plane is no better than to indulge

ourselves in the physical world. In fact, according to some

interpretations of patanjali's yoga sutras, it is precisely on this

astral plane where early stage seekers can easily become lost and

trapped for lifetimes or eons. It is actually much more seductive than

physical reality and because lucid dreamers can manifest anything they

want on this plane, they are essentially godlike beings. It is said

that one can never escape the wheel of karma from the astral plane

because there is no impediment to fulfillment of desires. Only the

failure to fulfil desires in the material world ultimately leads one to

pursue a path beyond this plane to the true source, whatever that may

be (tao?). that is why only humans can reach the source. the gods are

forever doomed.

 

Those who are seduced by the astral plane (as in vivid dreaming) thus

may indeed be experiencing a pathological disturbance of the spirit.

Consider the behavior of the pagan gods in every tradition. they are

immortal and very powerful, but they embody extreme attributes of

jealousy, violence, etc. That is why the siddhas (or supernatural

powers like telepathy) that come at early stages of yoga practice are

regarded as dangerous distractions from the path to the source. The

same yogic traditions consider deep dreamless sleep to be an

unconscious connection to the source and deep meditation to be a

conscious connection thereto. renewal of vitality occurs occurs via

both, but transcendance only occurs via the latter (I speak from my

training, not from personal experience; I am no sage!). thus vivid

dreaming is treated in TCM as a psychological disorder, but this tx may

actually facilitate spiritual progress. This seems to be congruent

with the yogic tradition I describe. Do any traditions in CM put value

in lucid dreaming, I wonder? Does anyone have other perspectives on

this topic?

 

todd

[Guest guest]

At 7:52 AM +0000 2/24/01, wrote:

>, juliej8@a... wrote:

>> In a message dated 2/23/01 8:53:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>> jeffgould@h... writes:

>>

>> <<

>> Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that

>>she uses ai

>> ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this

>> function? >>

>>

>> No, but why would anyone want to induce dreaming?

>>

>> Julie

>

>An interesting point. In TCM, vivid dreams often suggest a heart

>pathology. However, many folks believe dreaming is valuable and

>desired to process their days events or merely they enjoy them. In

>certain yogic traditions, dreams are considered a manifestation of the

>astral plane.

---

 

Modern bio-science based 'sleep researchers' seem to believe that

dreams occur regardless of one's awareness of them, during cycles of

rapid eye movement (REM) sleep that alternate with deep sleep.

Several cycles of both types of sleep each night are considered

necessary for good health. Normally one is only aware of dreams that

occur immediately prior to waking. This suggests that people who move

in and out of wakefulness will remember their dreams, and this

inability to sleep deeply suggests to me a disorder in Chinese

medicine. Also waking for extraneous reasons, such as the need to

urinate frequently, will likely lead to remembering more dreams, as

will setting the alarm clock at several intervals during the night.

However, damage occurs only if total sleep time is insufficient, and

researchers have worked out that at least 8 or 9 hours is necessary

on a consistent basis for good health, women needing rather more than

men. By this measure they reckon that Americans are chronically sleep

deprived. People who are forcibly deprived of REM sleep rapidly

become mentally disordered and die.

 

There seems to be convincing evidence that dreams have an information

processing and integration function (not to say that is all they do).

People who acquire a new skill, or new information, perform on tests

much better after REM sleep than before it, even though the

information is still fresh in their memory. Sleeping on it also seems

to have a beneficial effect on decision making in general, another

example of a processing and integration function. How this relates to

Carl Jung's childhood symbolic/archetypal dreams I don't know.

 

So far as yogic tradition is concerned, it seems to be that

meditative states can replace some of the need for sleep, although

the brainwave patterns are not identical. I have found on a few

occasions that I can wake at night in a state of deep meditation and

remain in that state for a prolonged period. Usually this only

happens when I am well rested in general. Whether this has any

relationship to what is called lucid dreaming I don't know but there

is a sense being both awake and yet dreaming at the same time, with

dream and awake phenomena intermingling. Lucid dreamers claim that

they can deliberately control the content of their dreams (to what

purpose I don't know).

 

Vivid dreaming seems to be different from lucid dreaming, in that

lucid dreaming has a manipulative intention. Also, I think to induce

vivid dreaming is different from persistent unsought vivid dreaming,

which I agree shows pathology (heart yin deficiency). I've no idea

whether the former is damaging, but I've read several written

accounts of psychologists using their dreams in this way to gain

insight, and who do not seem to have been injured. I think as long as

the person is not depriving themselves of overall sleep, it should be

ok.

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

on 2/24/01 10:31 PM, Rory Kerr at rorykerr wrote:

 

> At 7:52 AM +0000 2/24/01, wrote:

>> , juliej8@a... wrote:

>>> In a message dated 2/23/01 8:53:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>>> jeffgould@h... writes:

>>>

>>> <<

>>> Second, and unrelated, I've had yet another patient mention that

>>> she uses ai

>>> ye, raw, in her pillow to induce dreaming. Has anyone else heard of this

>>> function? >>

>>>

>>> No, but why would anyone want to induce dreaming?

>>>

>>> Julie

 

When my patients complain of dream disturbed sleep, I question them

carefully about caffeine intake. even a little caffeine can cause busy- less

restful- sleep.

Cara