Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Quick question/ comment: I was talking to one of my Chinese professor’s and he insisted that night sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually should be sleep-sweats. Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only when you are sleeping. This understanding would have some clinical significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text leaves me suspect. Comments? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 , <@o...> wrote: > Quick question/ comment: > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > should be sleep-sweats. I think that is incorrect. Dao han is translated sometimes as thief sweats, but I have never heard it as sleep sweats. Ken? However thief sweats also connotatively suggests other than night, but in wiseman the definition as taken from chinese medical dictionaries specifically refers to night. To call them sleep sweats seems to be an example of connotative translation that is inherently misleading, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Nhung, This question has nothing to do with tests or boards.. Not sure what your comment means...?? -Jason Dear Jason, I have one patient, he 've got the top grade in his Exam board he is very good guide too. And I fail the test two times.I also have many more Chiropractic and Chinese herb DR who past the test are my patients. So you should doubt about the test of the board and go forward to the people who have good experience. Nhung Ta - " " " traditional chinese herbs " Saturday, February 24, 2001 8:05 AM night sweats r Back... > Quick question/ comment: > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > should be sleep-sweats. Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only > when you are sleeping. This understanding would have some clinical > significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text > leaves me suspect. Comments? > > - > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Yes ken what you say helps very much.. to elaborate on Todd's comments... I personally know people you have yin xu who only sweat at night (when sleeping), and not when they take naps in the day. I know one other who commented that they sweat in the day (when asleep) ( she was not yin xu)....? This is interesting since one can not be sweating during the day, fall asleep and they begin to sweat.. somewhat strange since they are inactive... One question comes to mind: Ken and others: 1) the movement within yin and yang within the body- Some say that at night (i.e. sleep) the yin and yang switch positions (giving the previous explanations of why night sweats were occurring at night - But what about the possibility that yin and yang switch, not at night, but when we sleep, as some suggest? This would explain the 'sleep' sweating 2) Further ?'s surrounding the other pathomechanisms that are suggested to cause night sweats: A) ht xue xu B) spleen xu w/ damp C) shao yang type disorder (mid-stage pathogenic invasion) Why are these never mentioned? Are they not really clinically relevant? Have others seen these in there clinic or just always consider night sweats yin xu, and exclude these possibilities? - , yulong@m... wrote: > > yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 > yang2 xu1 zi4 han4 > > literally they translate as: > > yin1 vacuity steals sweat > yang2 vacuity sweats itself > It would be patently foolish to rule out yin1 xu1 > as a factor in an individual who, for whatever > reason, say work schedule or lifestyle, slept > during the day and had this symptom. > > Does that help? Ken It helps a lot. Apparently Jason's source is correct with regard to clinical connotation. two questions are now raised in my mind. 1. Has anyone ever had a patient report " nightsweating " during the daylight hours? 2. If so, this would certainly seem to confound the speculation on the pathomechanism of this sx, as all the reasons offered seem to involve the yinyang nature of day and night, a universal feature which does not change regardless of the individual's work schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 2. If so, this would certainly seem to confound the speculation on the pathomechanism of this sx, as all the reasons offered seem to involve the yinyang nature of day and night, a universal feature which does not change regardless of the individual's work schedule. This might actually say the opposite: This might say that the yin and yang of the body overrides the yin and yang of nature (day/ night) in this instance , i.e. producing 'sleep' sweats whenever the person is asleep regardless of the time. See my pervious post. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > I think that is incorrect. Dao han is translated sometimes as thief > sweats, but I have never heard it as sleep sweats. Ken? > > However thief sweats also connotatively suggests other than night, but > in wiseman the definition as taken from chinese medical dictionaries > specifically refers to night. To call them sleep sweats seems to be an > example of connotative translation that is inherently misleading, I > think. There are two phrases which are used to characterize this aspect of differential diagnosis. They are: yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 yang2 xu1 zi4 han4 literally they translate as: yin1 vacuity steals sweat yang2 vacuity sweats itself My understanding is that at night, during sleep, sweating is a typical indicator of yin1 vacuity, i.e. the vacant yin1 results in the body's inability to consolidate and contain the sweat and it leaks out. Thus the idea of the first of the above phrases: the vacuity of the yin1 steals the sweat. During the day, when one is awake, spontaneous sweating, i.e. sweating without exertion, is a typical indicator of yang2 vacuity, and hence the meaning of the second of the two phrases: the yang2 vacuity will cause the body to sweat all by itself, i.e. with no exertion. Now as to whether or not the meaning of these has to do with day time and night time, I think we have to make the presumption that people typically sleep at night and are awake during the day. Thus there is a " natural " correlation between the yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 and the night time and a similarly natural correlation between the yang2 xu1 zi4 han4 and the day time. But I would imagine that a majority of Chinese doctors would agree with the proposition that yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 definitely does refer to sweating that occurs during sleep. Making generalizations beyond this probably has only limited applicability as any particular individual must be understood not in terms of theory alone but in terms of that individual's actual condition and circumstances. It would be patently foolish to rule out yin1 xu1 as a factor in an individual who, for whatever reason, say work schedule or lifestyle, slept during the day and had this symptom. Similarly, a person who experienced spontaneous sweating while wide awake at night may well be suffering from yang2 xu1, and it would be ill conceived to believe otherwise solely because of the time of day. The gist of these two phrases is to differentiate between yin1 xu1 and yang2 xu1, as I understand them. But that does not mean that this is the limit of their usefulness. They are, after all, merely theories and must be fitted to real people before they make any sense whatsoever. Does that help? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 Dear Jason, I have one patient, he 've got the top grade in his Exam board he is very good guide too. And I fail the test two times.I also have many more Chiropractic and Chinese herb DR who past the test are my patients. So you should doubt about the test of the board and go forward to the people who have good experience. Nhung Ta - " " " traditional chinese herbs " Saturday, February 24, 2001 8:05 AM night sweats r Back... > Quick question/ comment: > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > should be sleep-sweats. Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only > when you are sleeping. This understanding would have some clinical > significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text > leaves me suspect. Comments? > > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 , yulong@m... wrote: > > yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 > yang2 xu1 zi4 han4 > > literally they translate as: > > yin1 vacuity steals sweat > yang2 vacuity sweats itself > It would be patently foolish to rule out yin1 xu1 > as a factor in an individual who, for whatever > reason, say work schedule or lifestyle, slept > during the day and had this symptom. > > Does that help? Ken It helps a lot. Apparently Jason's source is correct with regard to clinical connotation. two questions are now raised in my mind. 1. Has anyone ever had a patient report " nightsweating " during the daylight hours? 2. If so, this would certainly seem to confound the speculation on the pathomechanism of this sx, as all the reasons offered seem to involve the yinyang nature of day and night, a universal feature which does not change regardless of the individual's work schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 Jason and his Chinese prophessor are wright! In Chinese the character " qin " 3 means to sleep & a sleep but not night.So " qin han " means sleep sweating or sweating during a sleep, it does not matter at night or daytime. And this correlates with my limited experience of treatment of old people. Some of my patients say that sometimes they are sweating during the day nap, as well Yuri Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:34:14 -0000 Re: night sweats r Back... , <@o...> wrote: > Quick question/ comment: > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > should be sleep-sweats. I think that is incorrect. Dao han is translated sometimes as thief sweats, but I have never heard it as sleep sweats. Ken? However thief sweats also connotatively suggests other than night, but in wiseman the definition as taken from chinese medical dictionaries specifically refers to night. To call them sleep sweats seems to be an example of connotative translation that is inherently misleading, I think. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 on 2/25/01 11:00 AM, yuri ovchinikov at yuriovi wrote: > Jason and his Chinese prophessor are wright! > In Chinese the character " qin " 3 means to sleep & a sleep but not night.So " qin > han " means sleep sweating or sweating during a sleep, it does not matter at > night or daytime. And this correlates with my limited experience of treatment > of old people. Some of my patients say that sometimes they are sweating during > the day nap, as well > Yuri > > > This is interesting, Yuri. Yes, qin3 means sleep, but I cannot find the term qin han in my Chinese/English medical dictionaries (I have two). It would obviously be a less commonly used term than dao han, which I have encountered frequently in the literature. This doesn't make the said instructor incorrect, just describing a slightly different clinical phenomenon that is apparently used less frequently in at least some CM circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 I have had some very classic yin xu patients who became yin xu I believe because of their working night shift life style. Anyway, one guy in particular would get very very hot after midnight and then sweat even though he was awake and at work. He would have to change his T-shirt 2-3 times per night.Interestingly I asked if he ever sweated in bed during the day when he slept.And NO, he didn't.At the time I thought I thought that maybe during sleep because of REM or delta sleep or some other stage it triggered the night sweats because of yin xu....... Heiko wrote: > , yulong@m... wrote: > > > > > yin1 xu1 dao4 han4 > > yang2 xu1 zi4 han4 > > > > literally they translate as: > > > > yin1 vacuity steals sweat > > yang2 vacuity sweats itself > > > It would be patently foolish to rule out yin1 xu1 > > as a factor in an individual who, for whatever > > reason, say work schedule or lifestyle, slept > > during the day and had this symptom. > > > > Does that help? > > Ken > > It helps a lot. Apparently Jason's source is correct with regard to > clinical connotation. two questions are now raised in my mind. > > 1. Has anyone ever had a patient report " nightsweating " during the > daylight hours? > > 2. If so, this would certainly seem to confound the speculation on the > pathomechanism of this sx, as all the reasons offered seem to involve > the yinyang nature of day and night, a universal feature which does not > change regardless of the individual's work schedule. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 >I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translationbut due to the fact that >> I have not read this in any text Dear Jason, I mean that, the text you read is not enough, also the text book used to have question from board. So I mean you read the text book to take the test, but unfortunate, I do not know your text book and the board are same thing or not. That why I said that sometime you should learn on your experience and learn from the teacher or who ever have their own good experience. From my experience, I found out many symptom from my patients that the book or even the teacher never mention about. I used to teach my patients who are professionals about my experience, then I proved it by treating what I told them the problem which cause them sickness, they all agree after the treatment is improve. Nhung Ta - " " Sunday, February 25, 2001 2:07 AM RE: night sweats r Back... > Nhung, > > This question has nothing to do with tests or boards.. Not sure what your > comment means...?? > > -Jason > > > Dear Jason, > I have one patient, he 've got the top grade in his Exam > board he is very good guide too. And I fail the test two times.I also have > many more Chiropractic and Chinese herb DR who past the test are my > patients. So you should doubt about the test of the board and go forward to > the people who have good experience. > Nhung Ta > > - > " " > " traditional chinese herbs " > Saturday, February 24, 2001 8:05 AM > night sweats r Back... > > > > Quick question/ comment: > > > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > > should be sleep-sweats. Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but > only > > when you are sleeping. This understanding would have some clinical > > significance,>> but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text > > leaves me suspect. Comments? > > > > - > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 My understanding is that at night, during sleep,sweating is a typical indicator of yin1 vacuity,i.e. the vacant yin1 results in the body's inabilityto consolidate and contain the sweat and it leaksout. Thus the idea of the first of the above phrases: the vacuity of the yin1 steals the sweat.>>>>>>>>>No one symptom, out of contexts, has any real clinical relevance. Using this type of thinking results in diagnosis of many many multiple patterns in one patient without understanding of systemic interactions that explain a symptoms, such as night sweat, being Yin def symptoms, transformative heat or any other possibility. I believe this type of analysis too often leads to a kind of Chop sue formulations. A symptom must be put in context at all times. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Jason, >I wonder how many other words we must have > misconceptions of. Very good point. In fact, from this example we can see clearly what is meant by contextual understanding with respect to the meanings of Chinese medical terms. We think of a medical term in English...rather Latin or that hybrid language that has evolved for the use of medical personnel...as a discrete entity, a stand alone unit in the system of medical language. But most Chinese medical terms form parts in phrases, such as those cited earlier in this thread. Many of these phrases come from or are closely related and linked to old Chinese sayings. Thus in order to make sense of a single term, we often have to take a look at these substrata, where the meaning takes root. In fact, if you look over the various dilemmas raised during the course of this discussion, you'll see that yin1 and yang2 themselves are the most likely culprits when it comes to other terms that have been misconstrued. The idea of a " term " in the context of the English language gives such terms a characteristic way of meaning what they mean. Even this differs in the Chinese. Trying to resolve conflicts that appear in translation often leads nowhere in terms of understanding the original as all that gets resolved is the appearance of a conflict where, in the original none exists. Worse, subtle gradations of meaning in the original are often entirely overlooked. Thus if we think of yin1 and yang2 as two separate things, two separate identities, even two distinct aspects of things in general, we will always find ourselve hung on the horns of the dilemma that we know as the Cartesian split in Western epistemology. The Chinese notions are not only NOT separate and distinct but literally comprise one another. Yin1 is yang2; yang2 is yin1. As Alon wisely pointed out, none of this makes any sense in the abstract. These are merely conceptual tools for use in assessing the condition of human beings. But the tools are quite different, in some awfully subtle ways, from their opposite numbers in English. If Chinese ideas/words are used like English ideas/words, the results will differ substantially. I personally would like to see more discussions like > these concerning translation of particular 'key' terms (especially related > to dx and of course herbs)... (if it is in the scope of this discussion > group.) I do think it is clinically relevant and can only benefit the > profession, our personal knowledge, and the profession. Speaking of it from the perspective of protecting and supporting the development of the profession we should recognize that this is a level of education that has been entirely missed. More discussion is definitely needed, but what is needed is incorporation of the study of the language...i.e. of the mechanism of transmission of the traditions of traditional Chinese medicine. I am quite certain that there are more than a few who having just read what I've written above have turned their faces heavenward and sighed, " Oh there goes that Orientalist again! " (Or, perhaps worse.) But as you have just experienced, when you don't know what the words mean, it leads to confusion and exasperation. But you can't know WHAT the words mean if you don't know HOW the words mean. The last thing on earth that some folks seem to want is a cogent discussion of the meaning of terms, lest their own ignorance come into view, perhaps. The ironic truth is that those who study these subjects always come to recognize and understand that we are woefully ignorant, no matter how long we invest in such study. >Let's con't this > night sweat thread... Indeed. Let's continue... Ken > > - > > > yuriovi@v... [yuriovi@v...] > Sunday, February 25, 2001 11:00 AM > > Re: Re: night sweats r Back... > > Jason and his Chinese prophessor are wright! > In Chinese the character " qin " 3 means to sleep & a sleep but not night.So > " qin han " means sleep sweating or sweating during a sleep, it does not > matter at night or daytime. And this correlates with my limited experience > of treatment of old people. Some of my patients say that sometimes they are > sweating during the day nap, as well > Yuri > > > > > @i... > Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:34:14 -0000 > > Re: night sweats r Back... > > > , <@o...> wrote: > > Quick question/ comment: > > > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > > should be sleep-sweats. > > I think that is incorrect. Dao han is translated sometimes as thief > sweats, but I have never heard it as sleep sweats. Ken? > > However thief sweats also connotatively suggests other than night, but > in wiseman the definition as taken from chinese medical dictionaries > specifically refers to night. To call them sleep sweats seems to be an > example of connotative translation that is inherently misleading, I > think. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 Jason, In Chinese, the term for night sweats is dao han. Literally, this means "thief sweating." These sweats come sin the middle of the night like a thief when everyone in the house is alseep. I think what your Chinese teacher was getting at is that these sweats do not occur at night when one is awake but at night when one is asleep. His clarification is a good one. However, it also shows that native Chinese speakers cannot be the final authority on the English language translation of Chinese medical terms, although they can and should be helpmates in the process. The English term "night sweats" does mean exactly what dao han means connotatively or functionally (if not denotatively or literally). Night sweats is the accepted English medical terminology for the phenomenon of dao han in both Western and Chinese medicines. Bob wrote: Quick question/ comment: I was talking to one of my Chinese professor’s and he insisted that night sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation.It actually should be sleep-sweats.Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only when you are sleeping.This understanding would have some clinical significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text leaves me suspect.Comments? -Jason Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 To me sweat night is something to deal with the organ in the body which what time it begin to, for example if the body sweat at 1-3 o'clock at night, I would think that the body have symptom of liver, from 3-o'clock it mean that the lung have some to deal with,. base from those, I check around from eye to tongue, then point to find out what wrong with the body. sometime, the symptom appear to be this or that, but the patients still feel healthy because the patients are very good in exercise, then the virus the kind afraid of the body moving they make the nest protesting by something as the bee nest, so the medicine or exercises can not come to kill them. That why they always activities at night. When the virus border the body, The body automatically against them, then because the body working to against the virus that why the body have sweat. Nhung Ta - <alonmarcus Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:31 PM Re: Re: night sweats r Back... My understanding is that at night, during sleep, sweating is a typical indicator of yin1 vacuity, i.e. the vacant yin1 results in the body's inability to consolidate and contain the sweat and it leaks out. Thus the idea of the first of the above phrases: the vacuity of the yin1 steals the sweat. >>>>>>>>>No one symptom, out of contexts, has any real clinical relevance. Using this type of thinking results in diagnosis of many many multiple patterns in one patient without understanding of systemic interactions that explain a symptoms, such as night sweat, being Yin def symptoms, transformative heat or any other possibility. I believe this type of analysis too often leads to a kind of Chop sue formulations. A symptom must be put in context at all times. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Ken, Thank you for the reply... I can't agree more, understanding words in context is essential. - yulong [yulong] Monday, February 26, 2001 2:38 AM Re: night sweats r Back... Jason, >I wonder how many other words we must have > misconceptions of. Very good point. In fact, from this example we can see clearly what is meant by contextual understanding with respect to the meanings of Chinese medical terms. We think of a medical term in English...rather Latin or that hybrid language that has evolved for the use of medical personnel...as a discrete entity, a stand alone unit in the system of medical language. But most Chinese medical terms form parts in phrases, such as those cited earlier in this thread. Many of these phrases come from or are closely related and linked to old Chinese sayings. Thus in order to make sense of a single term, we often have to take a look at these substrata, where the meaning takes root. In fact, if you look over the various dilemmas raised during the course of this discussion, you'll see that yin1 and yang2 themselves are the most likely culprits when it comes to other terms that have been misconstrued. The idea of a " term " in the context of the English language gives such terms a characteristic way of meaning what they mean. Even this differs in the Chinese. Trying to resolve conflicts that appear in translation often leads nowhere in terms of understanding the original as all that gets resolved is the appearance of a conflict where, in the original none exists. Worse, subtle gradations of meaning in the original are often entirely overlooked. Thus if we think of yin1 and yang2 as two separate things, two separate identities, even two distinct aspects of things in general, we will always find ourselve hung on the horns of the dilemma that we know as the Cartesian split in Western epistemology. The Chinese notions are not only NOT separate and distinct but literally comprise one another. Yin1 is yang2; yang2 is yin1. As Alon wisely pointed out, none of this makes any sense in the abstract. These are merely conceptual tools for use in assessing the condition of human beings. But the tools are quite different, in some awfully subtle ways, from their opposite numbers in English. If Chinese ideas/words are used like English ideas/words, the results will differ substantially. I personally would like to see more discussions like > these concerning translation of particular 'key' terms (especially related > to dx and of course herbs)... (if it is in the scope of this discussion > group.) I do think it is clinically relevant and can only benefit the > profession, our personal knowledge, and the profession. Speaking of it from the perspective of protecting and supporting the development of the profession we should recognize that this is a level of education that has been entirely missed. More discussion is definitely needed, but what is needed is incorporation of the study of the language...i.e. of the mechanism of transmission of the traditions of traditional Chinese medicine. I am quite certain that there are more than a few who having just read what I've written above have turned their faces heavenward and sighed, " Oh there goes that Orientalist again! " (Or, perhaps worse.) But as you have just experienced, when you don't know what the words mean, it leads to confusion and exasperation. But you can't know WHAT the words mean if you don't know HOW the words mean. The last thing on earth that some folks seem to want is a cogent discussion of the meaning of terms, lest their own ignorance come into view, perhaps. The ironic truth is that those who study these subjects always come to recognize and understand that we are woefully ignorant, no matter how long we invest in such study. >Let's con't this > night sweat thread... Indeed. Let's continue... Ken > > - > > > yuriovi@v... [yuriovi@v...] > Sunday, February 25, 2001 11:00 AM > > Re: Re: night sweats r Back... > > Jason and his Chinese prophessor are wright! > In Chinese the character " qin " 3 means to sleep & a sleep but not night.So > " qin han " means sleep sweating or sweating during a sleep, it does not > matter at night or daytime. And this correlates with my limited experience > of treatment of old people. Some of my patients say that sometimes they are > sweating during the day nap, as well > Yuri > > > > > @i... > Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:34:14 -0000 > > Re: night sweats r Back... > > > , <@o...> wrote: > > Quick question/ comment: > > > > I was talking to one of my Chinese professor's and he insisted that night > > sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation. It actually > > should be sleep-sweats. > > I think that is incorrect. Dao han is translated sometimes as thief > sweats, but I have never heard it as sleep sweats. Ken? > > However thief sweats also connotatively suggests other than night, but > in wiseman the definition as taken from chinese medical dictionaries > specifically refers to night. To call them sleep sweats seems to be an > example of connotative translation that is inherently misleading, I > think. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Bob, Do you believe if someone sweats in the day (while sleeping), that this is considered night sweats? -Jason bobflaws [bob] Monday, February 26, 2001 7:46 AM To: Re: night sweats r Back... Jason, In Chinese, the term for night sweats is dao han. Literally, this means " thief sweating. " These sweats come sin the middle of the night like a thief when everyone in the house is alseep. I think what your Chinese teacher was getting at is that these sweats do not occur at night when one is awake but at night when one is asleep. His clarification is a good one. However, it also shows that native Chinese speakers cannot be the final authority on the English language translation of Chinese medical terms, although they can and should be helpmates in the process. The English term " night sweats " does mean exactly what dao han means connotatively or functionally (if not denotatively or literally). Night sweats is the accepted English medical terminology for the phenomenon of dao han in both Western and Chinese medicines. Bob wrote: Quick question/ comment: I was talking to one of my Chinese professor’s and he insisted that night sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation.It actually should be sleep-sweats.Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only when you are sleeping.This understanding would have some clinical significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text leaves me suspect.Comments? - The Chinese Herb Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Jason, This is a very interesting question. I would want to ask this question of a number of native Chinese-speaking Chinese doctors and hear what they have to say. After all, it's how they use the term that is important. All I can say is that I probably would not write down the words "night sweats" in the patient's chart to describe this phenomenon. Rather, I would write down exactly what you have said, "patient breaks out into a sweat when sleeping during the daytime." In my experience, this sign is just as likely or even more likely to be due to yang ming or damp heat than to yin vacuity. Bob wrote: Bob, Do you believe if someone sweats in the day (while sleeping), that this is considered night sweats? -Jason -----Original Message----- bobflaws [bob] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:46 AM To: Subject: Re: night sweats r Back... Jason, In Chinese, the term for night sweats is dao han. Literally, this means "thief sweating." These sweats come sin the middle of the night like a thief when everyone in the house is alseep. I think what your Chinese teacher was getting at is that these sweats do not occur at night when one is awake but at night when one is asleep. His clarification is a good one. However, it also shows that native Chinese speakers cannot be the final authority on the English language translation of Chinese medical terms, although they can and should be helpmates in the process. The English term "night sweats" does mean exactly what dao han means connotatively or functionally (if not denotatively or literally). Night sweats is the accepted English medical terminology for the phenomenon of dao han in both Western and Chinese medicines. Bob Jason wrote: Quick question/ comment: I was talking to one of my Chinese professor’s and he insisted that night sweats (i.e. due to yin xu) is actually a mis-translation.It actually should be sleep-sweats.Meaning you sweat during the day or night, but only when you are sleeping.This understanding would have some clinical significance, but due to the fact that I have not read this in any text leaves me suspect.Comments? -Jason The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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