Reply to Bob re teacherse

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/1/01 9:53:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, bob

writes:

 

<<

I have no idea whether your Pres and VP are knowledgable or not. So this

reply has nothing to do with them. I would just like to say that, in my

experience, one can have 20 or more years clinical experience and still

not know Chinese medical theory expertly.

 

Again, please be clear that I am only talking about this in the

abstract. I don't know who your teachers are. They may be absolutely

fabulous and may read Chinese far, far better than I.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bob >>

 

Bob,

 

Yes, well, I was only responding to Todd's remark that most schools hire

recent grads to teach basic theory, and in our school, we do not. So whether

or not our teachers are knowledgeable is not what I was responding to. They

are, though, and the Chinese ones (including our Pres and VP) do obviously

speak and read Chinese. The non-Chinese ones do not, but they are still

fabulous.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

, juliej8@a... wrote:

>

> Yes, well, I was only responding to Todd's remark that most schools hire

recent grads to teach basic theory,

 

Julie

 

I actually said, " Unfortunately,the basics are often left to

recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know

acupuncture but not herbology. " I never said most, all or even

remotely suggested yo-san was among these.

 

[Guest guest]

 

>>>Anyway you are always better off learning from good clinicians than theoreticians

Alon

 

 

Yes, well, I was only responding to Todd's

 

 

remark that most schools hire recent grads to teach basic theory, JulieI actually said, "Unfortunately,the basics are often left to recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know acupuncture but not herbology." I never said most, all or even remotely suggested yo-san was among these.

 

[Guest guest]

on 3/2/01 12:22 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

 

>>>Anyway you are always better off learning from good clinicians than theoreticians

Alon

 

 

I would like to share my own experience with the teaching issues discussed by Bob, Alon, Al and others I don't remember (no exclusion implied).

 

Everyone here has presented good points and arguments. . . . I don't doubt the good heart of all involved here. We are not talking about millions of dollars of investment, we are talking about a group of individuals who are teaching and/or practicing Chinese medicine because they are moved to do so, not for big dollars, for sure.

 

Teaching Chinese medicine arose as a necessity to propagate a profession that developed out of the public's need for health care professionals, those who could use the technologies of 'herbal' medicine and acumoxatherapy competently. However, the cultural, historical and philosophical hurtles were great, and the first generation of Western practitioners had to struggle to find adequate resources to learn, practice and teach this medicine.

 

Despite the growth of a school system, licensure, and a large body of practitioners in the U.S., we still find the same basic struggle to overcome these barriers, even as more reliable tools, teachers and texts have appeared. There is little economic reward in teaching, translating or writing books.. . .it is still a labor of love.

 

My own experience is that I love clinical practice, and have maintained a full-time practice for eighteen years without stopping. Although I am quite philosophical/theoretical in nature, it is a necessary grounding in reality to treat people with this theoretical background and get clinical results. I also have been teaching Chinese internal medicine theory and herbal medicine classes for 11 years. These classes, plus occasional seminars around the country, allow me to develop my thinking process, study, and communicate to my colleagues and students. I would love to spend much more time studying, writing, and tackling the Chinese medical literature. At least for now, that is not possible.

 

A number of years ago, I started hitting a wall. That wall was the limited reliable literature in English (although much better now than then), and the large gaps in essential material, especially on treatment of disease. Like many teachers, I had to profess my ignorance in these areas, or fudge some kind of speculation. This led me to inquire of my own teachers the tools to study medical Chinese.

 

Now, as a full-time practitioner, professor, with family obligations, raising children, trying to survive in the hyperactive economy, who has time to study medical Chinese? I am sure you are all busy like myself trying to keep up with things. What I do is study with a tutor once a week for two hours, and study on my own a little every day, every week for the last four years. It has been slow progress, and it is still difficult for me to read the Chinese literature on my own, but every week I get the satisfaction of gaining new insights into the medicine we practice.

 

Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, " no blame " .

 

With tools like the Mitchell/Feng/Wiseman Shang Han Lun and the upcoming Wiseman Chinese Medical Chinese, one can delve into the subject while learning a classical text and vocabulary at the same time.

 

A little effort goes a long way.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, "no blame". >>>>>The question is always what is the best use of ones time. I suspect we all have our opinions and experiences. I for one have chosen to spend more time viewing other practitioners than to study Chinese. This has serves me well. But like any blind man I can only see my part of the elephant.

Alon

 

-

 

Friday, March 02, 2001 9:10 AM

Re: Re: Reply to Bob re teacherse

on 3/2/01 12:22 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

>>>Anyway you are always better off learning from good clinicians than theoreticiansAlonI would like to share my own experience with the teaching issues discussed by Bob, Alon, Al and others I don't remember (no exclusion implied).Everyone here has presented good points and arguments. . . . I don't doubt the good heart of all involved here. We are not talking about millions of dollars of investment, we are talking about a group of individuals who are teaching and/or practicing Chinese medicine because they are moved to do so, not for big dollars, for sure.Teaching Chinese medicine arose as a necessity to propagate a profession that developed out of the public's need for health care professionals, those who could use the technologies of 'herbal' medicine and acumoxatherapy competently. However, the cultural, historical and philosophical hurtles were great, and the first generation of Western practitioners had to struggle to find adequate resources to learn, practice and teach this medicine.Despite the growth of a school system, licensure, and a large body of practitioners in the U.S., we still find the same basic struggle to overcome these barriers, even as more reliable tools, teachers and texts have appeared. There is little economic reward in teaching, translating or writing books.. . .it is still a labor of love. My own experience is that I love clinical practice, and have maintained a full-time practice for eighteen years without stopping. Although I am quite philosophical/theoretical in nature, it is a necessary grounding in reality to treat people with this theoretical background and get clinical results. I also have been teaching Chinese internal medicine theory and herbal medicine classes for 11 years. These classes, plus occasional seminars around the country, allow me to develop my thinking process, study, and communicate to my colleagues and students. I would love to spend much more time studying, writing, and tackling the Chinese medical literature. At least for now, that is not possible. A number of years ago, I started hitting a wall. That wall was the limited reliable literature in English (although much better now than then), and the large gaps in essential material, especially on treatment of disease. Like many teachers, I had to profess my ignorance in these areas, or fudge some kind of speculation. This led me to inquire of my own teachers the tools to study medical Chinese.Now, as a full-time practitioner, professor, with family obligations, raising children, trying to survive in the hyperactive economy, who has time to study medical Chinese? I am sure you are all busy like myself trying to keep up with things. What I do is study with a tutor once a week for two hours, and study on my own a little every day, every week for the last four years. It has been slow progress, and it is still difficult for me to read the Chinese literature on my own, but every week I get the satisfaction of gaining new insights into the medicine we practice.Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, "no blame". With tools like the Mitchell/Feng/Wiseman Shang Han Lun and the upcoming Wiseman Chinese Medical Chinese, one can delve into the subject while learning a classical text and vocabulary at the same time. A little effort goes a long way. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 3/2/01 11:35 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, " no blame " .

 

>>>>>The question is always what is the best use of ones time. I suspect we all have our opinions and experiences. I for one have chosen to spend more time viewing other practitioners than to study Chinese. This has serves me well. But like any blind man I can only see my part of the elephant.

Alon

 

 

I think, in your last few posts, you are referring to the issue whether clinicians or academics make better teachers. While my understanding of Chinese medicine is that theory always informs practice and visa-versa, different individuals will favor poles of the equation. That is fine, it provides a differing slant on the medicine. But I think case histories, technique and theory are ultimately inseparable.

 

An interesting book that deals with this subject is Judith Farquehar's Knowing Practice, an anthropological study of the clincial/education interface in mainland China.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think, in your last few posts, you are referring to the issue whether clinicians or academics make better teachers. While my understanding of Chinese medicine is that theory always informs practice and visa-versa, different individuals will favor poles of the equation. That is fine, it provides a differing slant on the medicine. But I think case histories, technique and theory are ultimately inseparable.>>>:>>>>One must always have a guide to logical thinking, although many great practitioners work intuitively. A great DO that worked with functional techniques used to just say to his students take the du dad were it wants to go. This was not the best way to teach it and it took some of his students to verbalize what he did intuitively, but very well. Some of the students that studied with him had the gift of being able to understand the mechanics of his technique, and became good teachers, but were not as adept at doing it. Others can do both. I think book knowledge is kind of the same. You can see a patient and begin looking at him/her from 8 principals, 6 levels, 4 levels, zong fu, or what ever else you have been exposed to. It is the art of a clinician that allows one to take the information and make it work. Learning this process, in my opinion, is more important than engorging ones mind with endless possibilities, i.e. information. But again knowledge is the bases of practice, most often.

Alon

 

-

 

Friday, March 02, 2001 11:49 AM

Re: Re: Reply to Bob re teacherse

on 3/2/01 11:35 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, "no blame". >>>>>The question is always what is the best use of ones time. I suspect we all have our opinions and experiences. I for one have chosen to spend more time viewing other practitioners than to study Chinese. This has serves me well. But like any blind man I can only see my part of the elephant.AlonI think, in your last few posts, you are referring to the issue whether clinicians or academics make better teachers. While my understanding of Chinese medicine is that theory always informs practice and visa-versa, different individuals will favor poles of the equation. That is fine, it provides a differing slant on the medicine. But I think case histories, technique and theory are ultimately inseparable.An interesting book that deals with this subject is Judith Farquehar's Knowing Practice, an anthropological study of the clincial/education interface in mainland China.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 3/2/01 12:10 PM, at zrosenberg wrote:

 

on 3/2/01 12:22 AM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

 

>>>Anyway you are always better off learning from good clinicians than theoreticians

Alon

 

 

I would like to share my own experience with the teaching issues discussed by Bob, Alon, Al and others I don't remember (no exclusion implied).

 

Everyone here has presented good points and arguments. . . . I don't doubt the good heart of all involved here. We are not talking about millions of dollars of investment, we are talking about a group of individuals who are teaching and/or practicing Chinese medicine because they are moved to do so, not for big dollars, for sure.

 

Teaching Chinese medicine arose as a necessity to propagate a profession that developed out of the public's need for health care professionals, those who could use the technologies of 'herbal' medicine and acumoxatherapy competently. However, the cultural, historical and philosophical hurtles were great, and the first generation of Western practitioners had to struggle to find adequate resources to learn, practice and teach this medicine.

 

Despite the growth of a school system, licensure, and a large body of practitioners in the U.S., we still find the same basic struggle to overcome these barriers, even as more reliable tools, teachers and texts have appeared. There is little economic reward in teaching, translating or writing books.. . .it is still a labor of love.

 

My own experience is that I love clinical practice, and have maintained a full-time practice for eighteen years without stopping. Although I am quite philosophical/theoretical in nature, it is a necessary grounding in reality to treat people with this theoretical background and get clinical results. I also have been teaching Chinese internal medicine theory and herbal medicine classes for 11 years. These classes, plus occasional seminars around the country, allow me to develop my thinking process, study, and communicate to my colleagues and students. I would love to spend much more time studying, writing, and tackling the Chinese medical literature. At least for now, that is not possible.

 

A number of years ago, I started hitting a wall. That wall was the limited reliable literature in English (although much better now than then), and the large gaps in essential material, especially on treatment of disease. Like many teachers, I had to profess my ignorance in these areas, or fudge some kind of speculation. This led me to inquire of my own teachers the tools to study medical Chinese.

 

Now, as a full-time practitioner, professor, with family obligations, raising children, trying to survive in the hyperactive economy, who has time to study medical Chinese? I am sure you are all busy like myself trying to keep up with things. What I do is study with a tutor once a week for two hours, and study on my own a little every day, every week for the last four years. It has been slow progress, and it is still difficult for me to read the Chinese literature on my own, but every week I get the satisfaction of gaining new insights into the medicine we practice.

 

Mainly, what can be gained from the moment one begins to study Chinese is the connection of the character-based language with Chinese medicine's conceptual framework. This connection is seamless, and once one begins to tackle it, one's own thinking on the subject becomes clarified. It helps immensely. This new opportunity that we have does not belittle our accomplishments so far, utilizing whatever tools we have had so far. As the Yi Jing says, " no blame " .

 

With tools like the Mitchell/Feng/Wiseman Shang Han Lun and the upcoming Wiseman Chinese Medical Chinese, one can delve into the subject while learning a classical text and vocabulary at the same time.

 

A little effort goes a long way.

 

 

 

thanks Z'ev for your thoughtful comments. I too find myself in a similar position- the whole big life- kids, practice, lectures, research, web site development- the big mishagas! and I too need a tutor. It's the only way that I can do it. how I wish I had studied Chinese when I was single!

 

Cara

[Guest guest]

on 3/3/01 5:39 PM, Cara Frank at herbbabe wrote:

 

 

thanks Z'ev for your thoughtful comments. I too find myself in a similar position- the whole big life- kids, practice, lectures, research, web site development- the big mishagas! and I too need a tutor. It's the only way that I can do it. how I wish I had studied Chinese when I was single!

 

Cara

 

This is modern life in a nutshell, Cara. One big kneidlach.

 

Shalom V'Berachah