Guest guest Posted March 18, 2001 Report Share Posted March 18, 2001 I'll maintain the virtue of acupuncturizing herbal theory along with herbalizing acupuncture theory. And...that exploration of divergents as channels traversing the exterior and interior would likely necessitate agents that have tropism to both areas. Since the idea remains fragmented classically, it is up to the practitioners who have an interest to flush the ideas out and pursue the truth of clinical virtue. I'd say the French have gone a long way toward developing useful implementation of the Divergents, and....I have no problem building on something someone made up as long as it has clinical viability. The only catch is academic. It should be cited. As far as multicultural use of medicinals is concerned, I find that one culture may cultivate the use of a medicinal in a way that is not fully understood or utilized by another. For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict TCM thoughts. The same is true for Mai Men Dong/Shatavari and especially He Zi/Haritaki when comparing Hindu and Chinese usage of same medicinals. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2001 Report Share Posted March 18, 2001 In a message dated 3/18/01 10:15:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes: > For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in > western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict > TCM thoughts. > Can you elaborate? Read Ellingwood and Felter.........Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2001 Report Share Posted March 18, 2001 on 3/18/01 10:30 AM, at wrote: > the development of wen bing theory fits this mold. However the ascent > of blood stasis theory in modern china is rooted in poorly grounded MSU > (the careless dissections of wang qing ren in the 1700's). Yet both > are considered critical developments in TCM. While wang qing ren's > work has been grounded after the fact by yan de xin and modern > research, there is no doubt that while a skillful formulator, wang was > somewhat the arrogant fool. So MSU clearly has a long tradition and > not always an illustrious one. I think we need to be a bit cautious here with the " making stuff up " mode. Proposing that substances enter channels, or 'western' herbs or pharmaceuticals having CM properties, or new clinical applications of Chinese medicinals are certainly interesting ideas, and I am all in favor of these ideas. However, they need to be thought out carefully, shared with one's peers, and debated by the profession at large. It seems a bit precious to just invent an idea, or a channel pathway, and then use it clinically as if it was definitive just because one thought so. But,then, ah, how convenient. . . .there is no way for anyone to test one's claim, no source given, so one's idea stands unchallenged. The Wen Bing school developed not out of neat ideas, but the needs of the population in one region of China where epidemics were raging and the classical prescriptions of the cold damage school were not successful enough. It was developed by a school of several physicians over a period of time in the Suzhou region, and carefully based on previous material in the Shang Han Lun and Nei Jing. There was nothing precious about it. . . ..there were people dying en mass, that needed medicine, and these physicians observed patterns and developed prescriptions. There is no doubt that Chinese medicine is a creative discipline, but that discipline is based on a classical literature base that has not been adequately mastered, studied or translated here in the West. And, yes, that includes a large case history literature which few have had any access to. One is always adding to the tradition in the clinic by responding to unique clinical situations, that is the creativity that is inherent in Chinese medicine. Then, hopefully, one reports back with one's diagnosis, point and herb prescriptions, and clinical results. Jazz is a largely improvised music, but it only works when performed by highly trained musicians with a large catalogue of learned material. It is not much different with Chinese medicine. May we continue to develop our practical skills, continue to study the medical literature, and also add our contributions to this great medical tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2001 Report Share Posted March 18, 2001 For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict TCM thoughts. Can you elaborate? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 , WMorris116@A... wrote: For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in > western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict > TCM thoughts. When you say sheng ma, are you referring to black cohosh (cimicifuga racemosa). While these are both species of the cimicifuga genus, I think we should be careful, here. In TCM, we have a number of angelica species that are biochemically distinct and are most definitely NOT similar herbs (such as du huo and dang gui). I think that black cohosh is not sheng ma, so comparisons are not meaningful. Black cohosh apears to address bi syndrome and amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea. It is said to be one of the best remedies to restore inhibited menses. Sheng ma is more indicated as an assistant in profuse menses. The same is true for Mai Men Dong/Shatavari and especially He > Zi/Haritaki when comparing Hindu and Chinese usage of same medicinals. since these other two herbs are either the same or similarly used plants in the same part of the owrld, I have always thought comparisons between the ayruvedic usage and TCMis clinically relevant. the same is true of qian cao gen and han lian cao. However, I do now question how scholarly works such as Frawley's Yoga of Herbs is decribing these medicinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > In a message dated 3/18/01 10:15:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, > @o... writes: > > > For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in > > western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict > > TCM thoughts. > > Can you elaborate? > Read Ellingwood and Felter.........Will I didn't see this before my post. It is my reading of Felter that convinces me that these are two very different herbs. (sheng ma and black cohosh). also everyone needs to remember that most sheng ma on the american market is not cimicifuga at all, but a completely unrelated genus that has no spleen yang lifting properties. Call your supplier and ask them to guarantee that your sheng ma is actually cimicifuga. If it is, it should match the picture in feng ye's illustrated materia medica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 on 3/18/01 9:54 PM, WMorris116 at WMorris116 wrote: > I'll maintain the virtue of acupuncturizing herbal theory along with > herbalizing acupuncture theory. And...that exploration of divergents as > channels traversing the exterior and interior would likely necessitate agents > that have tropism to both areas. Since the idea remains fragmented > classically, it is up to the practitioners who have an interest to flush the > ideas out and pursue the truth of clinical virtue. I'd say the French have > gone a long way toward developing useful implementation of the Divergents, > and....I have no problem building on something someone made up as long as it > has clinical viability. The only catch is academic. It should be cited. Perhaps the original 'acupuncturizer of herbal theory' (ouch!) was Li Dong-yuan, who employed medicinals seasonally, according to five phase theory, to harmonize and communicate yin and yang, and to upbear clear yang and downbear turbid yin. > > As far as multicultural use of medicinals is concerned, I find that one > culture may cultivate the use of a medicinal in a way that is not fully > understood or utilized by another. For instance the study Sheng Ma usage in > western culture has tremendous possibilities compared to adhering to strict > TCM thoughts. The same is true for Mai Men Dong/Shatavari and especially He > Zi/Haritaki when comparing Hindu and Chinese usage of same medicinals. I agree. He zi is a very important medicinal in Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine. In Tibet, it is the most frequently used medicinal, and is employed similarly to gan cao in harmonizing prescriptions. However, we must be careful to make sure that the same plant is being used, not just a plant in the same family. The cimicifuga we use traditionally in the west, for example, may not be the same plant. However, this is a study that must be done. I remember. Dr. Huang Bing-shan from Harbin on a visit to Santa Fe years ago admonishing us to learn the local medicinals and begin to study their clinical use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 wrote: > If it is, it should match the picture in feng ye's > illustrated materia medica. could you scan the different varieties and upload it somewhere so we can see them? I've seen Sheng Ma that is brown twigs and Sheng Ma that is a black, grey and white bias cut of a root with pourous segments inside. I was told that second variety was the Korean form of Sheng Ma. If you want to email the scans to me, I can upload them somewhere for all to see. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 In a message dated 3/19/01 7:40:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes: > When you say sheng ma, are you referring to black cohosh (cimicifuga > racemosa). Yes >While these are both species of the cimicifuga genus, I think we should be careful, >here. I agree >In TCM, we have a number of angelica species that are biochemically distinct and >are most definitely NOT similar herbs (such as du huo and dang gui). Are you saying that since these Angelica species are clearly different with differing functions, that other plants of differing species necessarily have differing functions? As I assume you know, that isn't necessarily true, rendering the logic an obfuscation. >I think that black cohosh is not sheng ma, so comparisons are not meaningful. >Black cohosh apears to address bi syndrome and amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea. It >is said to be one of the best remedies to restore inhibited menses. Sheng ma >is more indicated as an assistant in profuse menses. Are you saying since the literature indicates different functions for the two species of cimicifuga, the same plant cannot have the same use? On the contrary, your point supports my argument that literature from other cultures may provide insight into the use of medicinals. It would be useful to define methods of establishing valid cross-cultural comparisons of medicinal agents rather than proffer phrases such as " be careful. " One method of establishing cross-culturally valid comparisons is to analyze active constituents from one species to another. For instance, the use of Cimicifuga racemosae in western herbalism relies on the triterpine glycosides cimicifugoside and cimigenol for the effect on the hypothalamus-pituitary system with secondary effects on the centra/peripheral nervous systems and the reproductive system. These constituents are present in Cimicifuga dahurica (Sheng Ma). Other constituents common to C. dahurica, C. simplex, and C. racemosae include isoferulic acid and ferulic acid. I do not typically practice on the basis of this type of analysis, however, I have found it helpful at times. My point here is that I have used C. dahurica (Sheng Ma) the same way as C. racemosae (black cohosh) with good results for ten years. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 In a message dated 3/19/01 7:54:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenberg writes: > Dr. Huang Bing-shan from Harbin on a visit to Santa Fe > years ago admonishing us to learn the local medicinals and begin to study > their clinical use. I agree with Dr. Huang. Local plants often have greater vitality and there is tremendous strength in the argument for bio-regional herbalism. We can reduce the tyranny of commerce. Heck we could even train acupuncturists to recognize and use plants in their own back yard. I was on the Ballona wetlands this weekend, 80% of the plants identified had TCM analogues including Ju Hua, Lai Fu Zi, and Lu Lu Tong. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 > your point supports my argument that literature from other cultures > > may provide insight into the use of medicinals. > > It may indeed, but in this case,the preponderance of the evidence seems > to suggest these are two very different medicinals that happen to be in > the same genus. Following your logic, one could argue that angelica > sinensis and dahurica are not really distinct, either and that perhaps > we should begin using bai zhi to nourish blood because it is related to > dang gui botanically. No...I think you misread my statement > there is some overlap in the chemistry of these herbs, but there are > differences, too. In chemistry, even a single atomic change in a drug > structure can dramatically alter its properties, so I think the > chemical differences are more relevant to this " cross-cultural " > analysis than the similarities Not in my experience. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2001 Report Share Posted March 19, 2001 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > > >In TCM, we have a number of angelica species that are biochemically distinct > and >are most definitely NOT similar herbs (such as du huo and dang gui). > > Are you saying that since these Angelica species are clearly different with > differing functions, that other plants of differing species necessarily have > differing functions? I don't think that's what I said. It's certainly not what I meant. I meant that plants of the same genus and different species MAY be quite different. In many cases, they are quite similar, such as my agreeing with you about shatavari your point supports my argument that literature from other cultures > may provide insight into the use of medicinals. It may indeed, but in this case,the preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest these are two very different medicinals that happen to be in the same genus. Following your logic, one could argue that angelica sinensis and dahurica are not really distinct, either and that perhaps we should begin using bai zhi to nourish blood because it is related to dang gui botanically. > > One method of establishing cross-culturally valid comparisons is to analyze > active constituents from one species to another. For instance, the use of > Cimicifuga racemosae in western herbalism relies on the triterpine glycosides > cimicifugoside and cimigenol for the effect on the hypothalamus-pituitary > system with secondary effects on the centra/peripheral nervous systems and > the reproductive system. These constituents are present in Cimicifuga > dahurica (Sheng Ma). Other constituents common to C. dahurica, C. simplex, > and C. racemosae include isoferulic acid and ferulic acid. there is some overlap in the chemistry of these herbs, but there are differences, too. In chemistry, even a single atomic change in a drug structure can dramatically alter its properties, so I think the chemical differences are more relevant to this " cross-cultural " analysis than the similarities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2001 Report Share Posted March 20, 2001 At 12:13 AM -0500 3/20/01, WMorris116 wrote: wrote: > > there is some overlap in the chemistry of these herbs, but there are >> differences, too. In chemistry, even a single atomic change in a drug >> structure can dramatically alter its properties, so I think the >> chemical differences are more relevant to this " cross-cultural " >> analysis than the similarities > >Not in my experience. Not sure what experience you are referring to here, but what Todd is saying is correct: single atomic changes to a drug chemical structure can change the action significantly. A good example of this is ma huang's derivatives metoprolol tartate (lopressor), atenolol (tenormin), nadolol (corgard), timolol (timoptic). Another good example of this is the several derivatives of coca. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2001 Report Share Posted March 20, 2001 WMorris116 wrote: > I was on the Ballona wetlands this > weekend, 80% of the plants identified had TCM analogues including Ju Hua, Lai > Fu Zi, and Lu Lu Tong. Probably lots of Bai Mao Gen down there too, Will. : ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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