Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse

[Guest guest]

Heiko:

You bring up several points of interest. One is 'qualities that change', let's start there. The important point is to grasp features that change and those that don't. It is also important to understand why they change or not. It is unlikely that a thin pulse will gain substantial width without supplementing Blood. Also, an atherosclerotic pulse will not become scattered in ten minutes. Reasons for a 'qualities changing' pulse may include an insufficiency of Qi, or -- the complex processes taking place cannot be expressed all at once, so they are displayed as a sequential expression of various qualities that reflect what is taking place in the terrain.

 

Dr. Shen is a highly developed face reader. This is typically how time frame is established. There are qualities that reflect chest trauma quite accurately such as a tense and full pulse only in the distal positions (both). God knows how he got the roof part. He does a tremendous amount of Qi Gung every day.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 3/24/01 2:06:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, heiko writes:

 

 

 

The students at college who have just started clinic are experiencing that they take a pulse and then their observer takes a pulse which is different, and then they may have to wait 5-10 minutes for a supervisor to come in . Its different again , eg the supervisor says its not

hidden , the student checks again and in fact its not hidden .

 

Just lying down for 10 minutes can change a pulse .Having all these expectations of holding things , etc may change your mental state , time elapses and the pulse changes.

 

Many years ago in Australia Dr Shen did a pulse seminar and took a pulse of someone in the class and "felt" that when he was 7 years old he fell off a roof onto his chest.

 

I don't believe he "felt" that at all , I mean how does a falling off the roof pulse differ to a large school boy falling onto your chest during football pulse differ.This guy can diagnose amazing things on the pulse , or is he just highly intuitive ,psychic and uses the pulse as

a medium.

[Guest guest]

The students at college who have just started clinic are experiencing that they

take a pulse and then their observer takes a pulse which is different, and then

they may have to wait 5-10 minutes for a supervisor to come in . Its different

again , eg the supervisor says its not

hidden , the student checks again and in fact its not hidden .

 

Just lying down for 10 minutes can change a pulse .Having all these expectations

of holding things , etc may change your mental state , time elapses and the

pulse changes.

 

Many years ago in Australia Dr Shen did a pulse seminar and took a pulse of

someone in the class and " felt " that when he was 7 years old he fell off a roof

onto his chest.

 

I don't believe he " felt " that at all , I mean how does a falling off the roof

pulse differ to a large school boy falling onto your chest during football pulse

differ.This guy can diagnose amazing things on the pulse , or is he just highly

intuitive ,psychic and uses the pulse as

a medium.

 

My view with pulses is that regardless how accurate you may be able to read the

pulse , the prognosis is not necessarily affected . Pulse " masters " may be able

to pick up cancer on the pulse but can they cure it.

 

Heiko

 

Stephen Morrissey wrote:

 

> ...to have them hold the foods one at a time while you feel their pulses.

> In some cases you will detect a change in the pulses when the offending

> substance is either held or placed in their mouth.

>

> Julie, et al.

> One of the suggestions I made (copied above) in an email sent last week was

> a shameless ploy to see, after all the discussion on MSU, if anyone would

> point out how egregious an example of MSU the above suggestion actually is.

> Maybe you're just being kind but I don't believe that you will detect a

> corollary change in the pulses even if you place Drano in someone's hand!

> Sorry, I thought I'd better point it out since no one else had.

> Stephen

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

> including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Shen is a highly developed face reader.

.. He does a tremendous amount of Qi

Gung every day.

 

Will

 

Well there you go............as I suspected.........the pulse is just a

medium.

I have experienced myself doing lots of qi gong opens some kind of

pschic pathways and when I was taking pulses I could " feel " things such

as that they had a sore right knee. I wasn't feeling a sore right knee

pulse , that much I do know.

 

Perhaps we should spend more time doing qi gong and less trying to

figure out which pulse style to master.

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

Heiko:

 

I know you understood what you think I said. But, what you don't understand is that what I said is not what you heard. This is stated in humor, here is my attempt to reframe my original statement which the enclosed clipping of my commentary does not capture.

 

From my observation, Dr. Shen does not stop at stating the obvious such as string-taut is Qi stagnation. He follows inquiry into the cause of the situation, as a result of this discipline, he is capable of making interpretations that elude the junior and sophomore practitioners that compose a list such as this (I include myself in this category and will happily modify this opinion for practitioners who have more than fifty years clinical experience -- Dr. Shen has more than 60 years experience). And -- I feel it is important to state Dr. Shen relies on a balanced use of the four pillars for diagnosis, he is not relying exclusively on pulse diagnosis to come to his conclusions.

His method of facial diagnosis is a sophisticated method for timing events in the life. It is most likely how he is defining a precise age such as 7, the pulse tells the nature and location of the trauma, and...in a rough sense a time frame. This is the bulk of the story, and I might add, it is the therapeutically relevant part. Dr. Shen's self-cultivation lead to the ability to state the context of the trauma.

 

My point is it takes time and commitment to develop skills such as pulse diagnosis. It does not happen in a weekend intensive, no matter what the lineage, or even if a cool trick is picked up. It is fundamentally an oral tradition, and it's fruits are the product of extensive study and focus.

Self cultivation is a necessary portion of creating the possibility of becoming a 'superior physician.' However, intuition is no excuse for failure to study classical material, get exposure to senior practitioners, and work the material out in clinical practice.

 

Sincerely..........Will

 

Dr Shen is a highly developed face reader.

.. He does a tremendous amount of Qi

Gung every day.

 

Will

 

Well there you go............as I suspected.........the pulse is just a

medium.

I have experienced myself doing lots of qi gong opens some kind of

pschic pathways and when I was taking pulses I could "feel" things such

as that they had a sore right knee. I wasn't feeling a sore right knee

pulse , that much I do know.

 

Perhaps we should spend more time doing qi gong and less trying to

figure out which pulse style to master.

[Guest guest]

on 3/26/01 8:44 AM, Rory Kerr at rorykerr wrote:

 

 

> In choosing which style of pulse to study, I think it is better to be

> flexible, but it is also necessary to be able to use what you learn.

> Studying ayurvedic pulse may be fascinating, but you get more bang

> for the buck with a style that is already connected to your knowledge

> base. Personally, I've found it beneficial to study a few styles, and

> use aspects of each to compliment my central method, which is Dr

> Shen's version of standard Chinese pulse diagnosis.

>

> Rory

 

 

I have found that studying Ayurvedic and Tibetan pulse diagnosis, both

textually and with Dr. Vasant Lad and Dr. Yeshe Dhonden, has increased my

ability to feel subtle pulse qualities greatly. Both systems find pulse

information by moving the fingers from one side to the other in each

position, and they reveal information similarly to what Dr. Shen describes

in his work. Yes, one should firmly be rooted in a central method of pulse

diagnosis, but familiarity with sister systems can only be beneficial.

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Pulse "masters" may be able to pick up cancer on the pulse but can they cure it.>>>Also how does it affect their treatments. Do they use diffrent herbs that is the bottom line.

 

Alon

[Guest guest]

Did the student fall off a roof?

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon

 

In a message dated 3/25/01 5:14:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

 

 

>>>The most important thing for me is how does the information impact therapy.

 

That depends on the finding. What impact on therapy would be meaningful to you?

 

I do not see any point in telling someone his history from a pulse, unless the patient does not remember and the information is important for treatment.

 

I agree, otherwise it is a parlor trick, although -- it does enroll the patient and increase the power of your placebo.

As impressive as the stories are I would still like to see this done in a controlled

fashion that both negative and positive statements can be evaluated and see if these feats are truly repeatable. A;on

 

There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its greatest research weakness in my opinion. The issue you raise is not limited to pulse diagnosis. A substantial amount of time is required to 'calibrate' practitioners for reliability regardless of the diagnostic method being studied. I have participated in pulse diagnosis groups that have achieved a high degree of reliability regarding the ability to identify sensations and render some meaningful conclusions, it is unfortunate that process was not recorded and published. I'll work on it.

 

Regards, Will

[Guest guest]

I have found that studying Ayurvedic and Tibetan pulse diagnosis, both

textually and with Dr. Vasant Lad and Dr. Yeshe Dhonden, has increased my

ability to feel subtle pulse qualities greatly. Both systems find pulse

information by moving the fingers from one side to the other in each

position, and they reveal information similarly to what Dr. Shen describes

in his work. Yes, one should firmly be rooted in a central method of pulse

diagnosis, but familiarity with sister systems can only be beneficial.

 

 

 

" My experience is that deepening and broadening my knowledge

base through study and practice within Chinese medical parameters is much

more successful than outright eclecticism. " Zev

 

Zev,

I am wondering where the line is drawn between familiarity with sister

systems and " outright eclecticism " (whatever that is)? Where does Nogier's

work fall? Would you consider it a " sister system " ? TCM itself is quite

eclectic and it is my sense that divergent protocols that have been

historically used with success in ancient China were not all written down

for our benefit today.

 

My personal " eclecticism " has focused on determining the types of health

factors that limit the effectiveness of otherwise beneficial TCM treatment

protocols. The four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a

variety of dental problems, 2) Food sensitivities or allergies that have not

been identified and continue to aggravate the person's system; 3) Those with

a hyper-sensitivity to electro and geomagnetic field characteristics; and 4)

a strong chemical toxicity, which could be from chronic exposure to things

like paint fumes or other industrial toxins (i.e. unresponsive liv/GB fire).

Being able to identify these factors, and in some cases help the problem

with acupuncture or Chinese herbs, has noticeably improved patient outcomes.

In cases where I can not help I am able to refer out more intelligently.

Would you say that this qualify as " outright eclecticism " ? If not, what

does?

 

Best regards,

Stephen Morrissey

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My point is it takes time and commitment to develop skills such as pulse diagnosis. It does not happen in a weekend intensive, no matter what the lineage, or even if a cool trick is picked up. It is fundamentally an oral tradition, and it's fruits are the product of extensive study and focus. >>>The most important thing for me is how does the information impact therapy. I do not see any point in telling someone his history from a pulse, unless the patient does not remember and the information is important for treatment. As impressive as the stories are I would still like to see this done in a controlled fashion that both negative and positive statements can be evaluated and see if these feats are truly repeatable.

A;on

Alon

[Guest guest]

>My personal " eclecticism " has focused on determining the types of health

>factors that limit the effectiveness of otherwise beneficial TCM treatment

>protocols. The four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a

>variety of dental problems...

 

Stephen,

I'm curious about what you've seen re dental problems limiting the

effectiveness of treatment... what kinds of dental problems and how do you

see them creating other health problems. I'm not sure if this is

appropriate for the list, so perhaps better respond personally.

chemenway

 

Thanks.

 

Catherine

[Guest guest]

on 3/24/01 2:03 PM, Heiko Lade at heiko wrote:

..

>

> My view with pulses is that regardless how accurate you may be able to read

> the pulse , the prognosis is not necessarily affected . Pulse " masters " may be

> able to pick up cancer on the pulse but can they cure it.

 

The issue here is to be able to trace the stages of a disease, cancer or

another disorder, and to choose appropriate treatment at each stage of a

disease, whether Chinese, biomedical or other methods. A disease of long

course, such as lupus, has many stages of development that can be

ascertained through pulse diagnosis and related methods. One can choose a

therapeutic regimen appropriate for each stage, and hopefully positively

influence the course of the disease.

 

While cancer is a monster disease to cure, by any means, one can still

have a very positive influence on a cancer patient, Heiko. Whether by

improving quality of life, strengthening correct qi, helping guide treatment

options, or slowing the disease course, there are many ways to help

patients. And, yes, sometimes we can help turn it around, with G-d's help,

and with inspired teamwork (with the patient and other health

professionals).

 

>

> Heiko

>

> Stephen Morrissey wrote:

>

>> ...to have them hold the foods one at a time while you feel their pulses.

>> In some cases you will detect a change in the pulses when the offending

>> substance is either held or placed in their mouth.

 

Obviously, this is a joke on Stephen's part. Unfortunately, I have seen

kinesiology used in such a manner. I think the patient here would laugh so

hard they would spit out the offending substance.

 

 

[Guest guest]

on 3/25/01 4:53 PM, Stephen Morrissey at stephen

wrote:

 

>

> I have found that studying Ayurvedic and Tibetan pulse diagnosis, both

> textually and with Dr. Vasant Lad and Dr. Yeshe Dhonden, has increased my

> ability to feel subtle pulse qualities greatly. Both systems find pulse

> information by moving the fingers from one side to the other in each

> position, and they reveal information similarly to what Dr. Shen describes

> in his work. Yes, one should firmly be rooted in a central method of pulse

> diagnosis, but familiarity with sister systems can only be beneficial.

>

>

>

> " My experience is that deepening and broadening my knowledge

> base through study and practice within Chinese medical parameters is much

> more successful than outright eclecticism. " Zev

>

> Zev,

> I am wondering where the line is drawn between familiarity with sister

> systems and " outright eclecticism " (whatever that is)? Where does Nogier's

> work fall? Would you consider it a " sister system " ? TCM itself is quite

> eclectic and it is my sense that divergent protocols that have been

> historically used with success in ancient China were not all written down

> for our benefit today.

 

Stephen,

Very good points. Let me address them below.

 

1) Nogier is a 'sister system'. . . .clearly based on a holographic approach

(where the body systems are reproduced in the ear) inspired by embryology.

I think it is an evolved approach fairly comprehensive in scope and clinical

application, but it is not really Chinese medicine. It is inspired,

obviously, by acupuncture and the concept of channels and points, but Dr.

Nogier developed his own approach based on inspiration. Does this make it

less valid? No, not in the least. But it does need to be studied on its

own merits, not as TCM, where its different basis and scope may serve to

confuse students. Even more confusing is the Chinese version of ear

acupuncture, which mixes Nogier, Chinese zang/fu concepts and modern

anatomy. . . .and its claims to be rooted in the classical literature. To

sum up, I generally rely on Nogier when I choose to use ear acupuncture.

>

> My personal " eclecticism " has focused on determining the types of health

> factors that limit the effectiveness of otherwise beneficial TCM treatment

> protocols. The four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a

> variety of dental problems, 2) Food sensitivities or allergies that have not

> been identified and continue to aggravate the person's system; 3) Those with

> a hyper-sensitivity to electro and geomagnetic field characteristics; and 4)

> a strong chemical toxicity, which could be from chronic exposure to things

> like paint fumes or other industrial toxins (i.e. unresponsive liv/GB fire).

> Being able to identify these factors, and in some cases help the problem

> with acupuncture or Chinese herbs, has noticeably improved patient outcomes.

> In cases where I can not help I am able to refer out more intelligently.

> Would you say that this qualify as " outright eclecticism " ? If not, what

> does?

 

2) To me, 'outright eclecticism' is the indiscriminate mixing of techniques

with a superficial smattering of medical theory, such as practitioners who

use homeopathic combination 'detox' remedies alongside flower remedies,

muscle test the chakras to bring spiritual balance, et al. If a

practitioner is well trained in their background, certainly those approaches

may cross-pollinate. I think all of your interests listed in the above

paragraph are obviously well-grounded and beneficial, and true. I also see

these chemical and food sensitivities at work, and take them into account.

I just use traditional CM diagnostics, and if I feel other methods such as

blood testing, dark field therapy, etc. are needed, I refer out. My own

area of development is in how modern pharmaceuticals effect the clinical

patterns, and this an ongoing interest/concern.

 

 

Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Although, the quote gave a sense

of 'engraved in stone' which perhaps I didn't intend originally.

 

 

[Guest guest]

yes he did at the age Dr Shen predicted. He was playing batman.

Heiko

alonmarcus wrote:

 

Did

the student fall off a roof?Alon

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

 

The four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a

> variety of dental problems, 2) Food sensitivities or allergies that have not

> been identified and continue to aggravate the person's system; 3) Those with

> a hyper-sensitivity to electro and geomagnetic field characteristics; and 4)

chemical toxicity

 

Stephen

 

it would seem that the factors you have identified fit nicely into the

TCM category of miscellaneous causes of disease. They were not present

in ancient China, so they could not have been identified till modern

times. If these are causes they must be eliminated. As I often tell

students, disease is NOT caused by a deficiency of herbs, but by the

internal, external and misc. causes of disease. I would offer that

many such sensitivities (1-3 above) can often be remedied by

strengthening the zheng qi and regulating the pi/wei. However,some

people have prenatal essence causes that leads to this and then only

avoidance will work.

 

[Guest guest]

, Catherine Hemenway <chemenway@b...>

wrote:

 

>

> Stephen,

> I'm curious about what you've seen re dental problems limiting the

> effectiveness of treatment... what kinds of dental problems and how do you

> see them creating other health problems. I'm not sure if this is

> appropriate for the list, so perhaps better respond personally.

 

 

no,no. Please reply to the group.

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

 

>

> There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its

> greatest research weakness in my opinion. The issue you raise is not limited

> to pulse diagnosis. A substantial amount of time is required to 'calibrate'

> practitioners for reliability regardless of the diagnostic method being

> studied.

 

 

here, here. well put.

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/26/01 12:31:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

 

 

There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its > greatest research weakness in my opinion. >>>>You forgot my study

 

 

Where can I find it?

Will

[Guest guest]

At 4:36 PM +1200 3/25/01, Heiko Lade wrote:

>Well there you go............as I suspected.........the pulse is just a

>medium.

--

Not really. Whatever intuition John Shen is capable of, he was

trained in the the basics of pulse diagnosis, and recorded (past

tense- he has retired) his findings in patient charts according to

positions and qualities until he retired, and used this information

to diagnose patterns of disharmony. In addition to this standard

practice, he has expanded the standard repertoire of 28 qualities,

uses complimentary positions adjacent to the standard positions on

the radial pulse, and has observations about combinations of

qualities that imply certain types of causation: an example of this

would be significant trauma to the chest, or other parts of the body

at some time in the past. Dr Shen places great importance on

identifying causation in his patients. In the demonstration you

mentioned he may have known from the pulse alone that the person had

a significant trauma to the chest during childhood, and probably that

it happened between the ages of 5-10 years old. The face may, or may

not, have shown a more exact date, once he had the basic time-frame

from the pulse.

 

>

>Perhaps we should spend more time doing qi gong and less trying to

>figure out which pulse style to master.

--

I agree, but mastering the pulse involves a great deal of focused

attention and a clear mind, and can be a meditation practice similar

to qi gong. It differs from qi gong in that it is attached to a body

of medical knowledge, and the intentional observation of patients, so

intuition tends to arise in that context.

 

In choosing which style of pulse to study, I think it is better to be

flexible, but it is also necessary to be able to use what you learn.

Studying ayurvedic pulse may be fascinating, but you get more bang

for the buck with a style that is already connected to your knowledge

base. Personally, I've found it beneficial to study a few styles, and

use aspects of each to compliment my central method, which is Dr

Shen's version of standard Chinese pulse diagnosis.

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

In response to Catherine and Todd's emails

 

The four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a

> variety of dental problems, 2) Food sensitivities or allergies that have

not

> been identified and continue to aggravate the person's system; 3) Those

with

> a hyper-sensitivity to electro and geomagnetic field characteristics; and

4) chemical toxicity

 

FROM Todd:

it would seem that the factors you have identified fit nicely into the

TCM category of miscellaneous causes of disease..... I would offer that

many such sensitivities (1-3 above) can often be remedied by

strengthening the zheng qi and regulating the pi/wei. However,some

people have prenatal essence causes that leads to this and then only

avoidance will work.

 

I agree with the misc. category but do not believe that many people will

overcome these problems by strengthening zheng qi as a first step. If you

broadly define health as strength and balance, and agree that health is the

goal, then I would place sensitivities1-4 above primarily in the imbalance

category and secondarily in weakness. If stagnant qi causes excess on one

side of the blockage and deficiency on the other, then you don't want to

treat the area of deficiency by strengthening the qi since you only

exacerbate the excess condition. From my vantage, the same often applies to

an imbalance especially one that is caused by a fixed aggravation to the

system such as dental materials. It could be thought of as analogous to

healing a bullet wound before removing the bullet.

 

Quick case history: 43yo Female with shoulder pain fully heals in 6

acupuncture tx with added herbs for related digestive disturbances. Nine

months later returns with what appears to be the same thing on the other

shoulder. Same approach but absolutely no results after 5 treatments. I

further inquire about potential misc aggravations 1-4 above that may have

occurred during the nine months in between. Dental bridge was installed

with metal covered by porcelain. No discomfort. Her brother is the dentist

and did a beautiful job. I added St6, St44, and Lu3 to the treatment and no

other change of protocol. Complete relief of sx for two days then pain back

to original level. Next visit, only the dental points. Again, notable

temporary relief. I tell her that she needs to replace the bridge. I get a

phone call at home from the brother dentist... " are you a fu*king quack?! "

I wasn't sure, he could be right. I convince him to give it a try and he

does. The shoulder pain fully resolves when the bridge is removed. A year

or two later I read about a seminar being sponsored by the brother dentist

and Hal Huggins on dental materials compatibility. By now he's probably in

jail.

 

Regarding dental materials, one of the most common problems is two

dissimilar metals such as amalgam and gold in contact with each other

causing a battery-like effect that is a constant aggravation to the acu

channel system. However, even certain glues can set off the nervous system

and cause insomnia or immune suppression in sensitive types.

Digestion/pi/wei, as Todd alludes, is often involved. The sequence of

events needs to be determined. The timing of the dental work relative to

the symptoms in question should be assessed.

 

I could go on more about this and the other three misc. factors above but I

am in the process of moving family and business from Ketchum, Idaho to Ojai,

CA so I will try to pick this up in a couple of weeks. If Todd wants to

facilitate further discussion on misc causes of disease I invite you all to

show up in Ojai at our new retreat for an informal gathering on the issue.

 

Best regards,

Stephen

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I could go on more about this and the other three misc. factors above but Iam in the process of moving family and business from Ketchum, Idaho to Ojai,>>>>If people are interested in this they can lookup neural therapy stuff. It all comes from there

Alon

 

-

Stephen Morrissey

Monday, March 26, 2001 11:25 AM

RE: Re: Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse

In response to Catherine and Todd's emailsThe four most common factors that I have identified are 1) a> variety of dental problems, 2) Food sensitivities or allergies that havenot> been identified and continue to aggravate the person's system; 3) Thosewith> a hyper-sensitivity to electro and geomagnetic field characteristics; and4) chemical toxicityFROM Todd:it would seem that the factors you have identified fit nicely into theTCM category of miscellaneous causes of disease..... I would offer thatmany such sensitivities (1-3 above) can often be remedied bystrengthening the zheng qi and regulating the pi/wei. However,somepeople have prenatal essence causes that leads to this and then onlyavoidance will work.I agree with the misc. category but do not believe that many people willovercome these problems by strengthening zheng qi as a first step. If youbroadly define health as strength and balance, and agree that health is thegoal, then I would place sensitivities1-4 above primarily in the imbalancecategory and secondarily in weakness. If stagnant qi causes excess on oneside of the blockage and deficiency on the other, then you don't want totreat the area of deficiency by strengthening the qi since you onlyexacerbate the excess condition. From my vantage, the same often applies toan imbalance especially one that is caused by a fixed aggravation to thesystem such as dental materials. It could be thought of as analogous tohealing a bullet wound before removing the bullet.Quick case history: 43yo Female with shoulder pain fully heals in 6acupuncture tx with added herbs for related digestive disturbances. Ninemonths later returns with what appears to be the same thing on the othershoulder. Same approach but absolutely no results after 5 treatments. Ifurther inquire about potential misc aggravations 1-4 above that may haveoccurred during the nine months in between. Dental bridge was installedwith metal covered by porcelain. No discomfort. Her brother is the dentistand did a beautiful job. I added St6, St44, and Lu3 to the treatment and noother change of protocol. Complete relief of sx for two days then pain backto original level. Next visit, only the dental points. Again, notabletemporary relief. I tell her that she needs to replace the bridge. I get aphone call at home from the brother dentist..."are you a fu*king quack?!"I wasn't sure, he could be right. I convince him to give it a try and hedoes. The shoulder pain fully resolves when the bridge is removed. A yearor two later I read about a seminar being sponsored by the brother dentistand Hal Huggins on dental materials compatibility. By now he's probably injail.Regarding dental materials, one of the most common problems is twodissimilar metals such as amalgam and gold in contact with each othercausing a battery-like effect that is a constant aggravation to the acuchannel system. However, even certain glues can set off the nervous systemand cause insomnia or immune suppression in sensitive types.Digestion/pi/wei, as Todd alludes, is often involved. The sequence ofevents needs to be determined. The timing of the dental work relative tothe symptoms in question should be assessed.I could go on more about this and the other three misc. factors above but Iam in the process of moving family and business from Ketchum, Idaho to Ojai,CA so I will try to pick this up in a couple of weeks. If Todd wants tofacilitate further discussion on misc causes of disease I invite you all toshow up in Ojai at our new retreat for an informal gathering on the issue.Best regards,StephenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

:> > There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its > greatest research weakness in my opinion.

 

>>>>You forgot my study

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, March 25, 2001 11:31 PM

Re: Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse

, WMorris116@A... wrote:> > There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its > greatest research weakness in my opinion. The issue you raise is not limited > to pulse diagnosis. A substantial amount of time is required to 'calibrate' > practitioners for reliability regardless of the diagnostic method being > studied. here, here. well put.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

What impact on therapy would be meaningful to you? >>>If it leads to a different treatment

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:13 PM

Re: Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse

Alon In a message dated 3/25/01 5:14:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

>>>The most important thing for me is how does the information impact therapy.That depends on the finding. What impact on therapy would be meaningful to you? I

do not see any point in telling someone his history from a pulse, unless the patient does not remember and the information is important for treatment. I agree, otherwise it is a parlor trick, although -- it does enroll the patient and increase the power of your placebo. As impressive as the stories are I would still like to see this done in a controlled

fashion that both negative and positive statements can be evaluated and see if these feats are truly repeatable. A;onThere are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its greatest research weakness in my opinion. The issue you raise is not limited to pulse diagnosis. A substantial amount of time is required to 'calibrate' practitioners for reliability regardless of the diagnostic method being studied. I have participated in pulse diagnosis groups that have achieved a high degree of reliability regarding the ability to identify sensations and render some meaningful conclusions, it is unfortunate that process was not recorded and published. I'll work on it. Regards, Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

It was published in menopause.

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Monday, March 26, 2001 12:51 PM

Re: Re: Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse

In a message dated 3/26/01 12:31:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its > greatest research weakness in my opinion. >>>>You forgot my study Where can I find it? Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

At 10:23 AM -0800 3/25/01, wrote:

> Yes, one should firmly be rooted in a central method of pulse

>diagnosis, but familiarity with sister systems can only be beneficial.

--

 

We seem to agree on this point.

 

Rory