Guest guest Posted April 6, 2001 Report Share Posted April 6, 2001 Hola herbalistas, I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement. Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before the treatments began. Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the 100% mark. Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? What do I do now? Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Al Stone wrote: I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement. Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before the treatments began. Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the 100% mark. Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? What do I do now? Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? Not to bring up the " H " word, but in homeopathy, this would show that you gave a remedy that was similar but not the exact remedy. I would think that there may have been an herb or herbs in the formulation that she reacted poorly to once she took it for a while, or that there are other factors in her diagnosis that need to be taken into account so that the formulation can be changed or adjusted. Another possibility is that she needs to get moving some more too, so somesort of exercise or breathing regimen may be added. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Dear colleagues..... I think tolerance is a wide term and often refers to ability to take herbs without reaction. I think the adaptive tendencies presented by retroviral infections or when root issues remain unsolved might be given the term 'acclimation' as used in biomedicine. The question would then be whether acclimation is from physiology or a pathogen. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Dear Alstone, The reason she were getting better be cause you give herb to right direction, the reason it come back, because the root is not to be solve. So , the main thing you have to find out the root which cause that symptom, I'm not there I can not see what it's caused to her, because, to find out the root, it need a of information, so you only the one can find out it. Nhung Ta - " Al Stone " <alstone " Chinese Herbal Medicine " Friday, April 06, 2001 10:19 PM Herb tolerance > Hola herbalistas, > > I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb > tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. > > I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement. > > Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the > condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before > the treatments began. > > Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the > 100% mark. > > Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are > those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? > > What do I do now? > > Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 I do find herb tolerance, but primarily in chronic diseases like Lyme Disease, where the spirochetes adapt, or cancer. For that I rotate formulas every two weeks, modifying them as needed and have 3-4 primary formulas which may change over the course of treatment. Two to three may be on the same treatment principles, with an alternate or two to come from a different angle. For your food stagnation case I would wonder whether your patient might not be eating differently since she is better able to tolerate the stuff that gave her the stagnation in the first place. If there is not significant improvement in three weeks I always reevaluate both the treatment principle and the herbs. For instance I have a spleen qi deficiency case which wouldn't resolve until I first drained off the dampness. She had been treated elsewhere for Spleen qi xu for over a year, but the dampness was preventing any free flow of qi that the prior treatments may have generated. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need. " -- Marcus Tullius Cicero ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Hola Al Stone L.Ac. I am assuming that your “diagnose” was the correct one) When your patient come back to your office, do you review the changes in the symptoms and signs and modify or change the formula so that it reflects the changes in the signs and symptoms your patient has? Let us remember that we are adjusting “energy”. We are balancing yin and yang, and that each formula or herbs acts therefore on yin y/o yang. We should be observing the changes and to modify the formula or change the formula in accordance with the new signs and symptoms. Our patient is as a musical instrument, the best comparison is a guitar, and we cannot tune the guitar adjusting all the strings at the same time. We adjust the strings one to one and we return again to begin until we tune the guitar. We must to make this process until we have the quality sound that we want. Now we have our guitar (our patient) vibrating in harmony. The formulas are as a mirror that reflects the signs and symptoms of the patient. Our goal is to find the formula and its modifications that reflect the pattern of disharmony of the patient and no the patient to the formula. Therefore if the patient modifies her/his signs and symptoms we must modify the formula or we must use other formula. Another question: Do you have knowledge if the patient left the causes that provoked the disharmony? If your patient doesn't modify the factor that causes this disharmony the treatment won't have the prospective results. It is as trying to fill bucket that no has bottom. A last question at the moment: Why you don't write the other outcome according to other pattern. I say: Eight-principle pattern discrimination y/or Fluids and humors pattern discrimination y/or Visceral and bowels pattern discrimination, etc. It is strange, very strange that a patient alone present one pattern of disharmony. We could help you if you give us the clinical history of the patient. Signs and symptoms, pattern of disharmony, therapeutic principle and the formula its modification. Best wishes, Dr. Juan J. Fiuza. Miami, Florida Al Stone [alstone] Friday, April 06, 2001 10:19 PM Chinese Herbal Medicine Herb tolerance Hola herbalistas, I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement. Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before the treatments began. Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the 100% mark. Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? What do I do now? Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herbtolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation.I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement.Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that thecondition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from beforethe treatments began.Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the100% mark.>>>>>Is it tolerance or just the honeymoon stage i.e. placebo Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Al Your patients reaction is not entirely strange and could be due to a number of factors. I know that in Anthroposphical medicine if a treatment works and then ceases working is sometimes due to a weak etheric body and they have treatments for that. In homoeopathy they sometimes say a reaction like this is because the miasms need to be treated. Perhaps there is a reason why this happens in Chinese medicine , gu syndrome, phlegm. I have experienced the same type situation , where( I believe the diagnosis is right) and I presribe and or needle with a quick improvement to be followed by a return to old patterns. Oddly enough , I experience it often with cancer patients , especially liver cancer.I presribe a basic reduce liver fire, neutralise toxin , disperse stasis , etc type formula and the first 5-6 packets work really well. The patient comes back really optimistic that it is going to work , and then the herbs seem to stop working. I don't believe its placebo as when they first came their attitude is one of pesimism and I say that the treatment will only support them ( I say this to cover myself and because I don't have the skill to cure cancer) Good luck with the patient Heiko Al Stone wrote: > Hola herbalistas, > > I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb > tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. > > I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% improvement. > > Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the > condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before > the treatments began. > > Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the > 100% mark. > > Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are > those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? > > What do I do now? > > Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Al, My experience over the years points to the following: that when one treats a branch symptom, such as abdominal cramping, it will often respond to treatment at first, and then gradually return. I would suggest looking deeper, getting the entire symptom picture including emotions, and finding the root that corresponds to the branch. This is a common situation discussed in the literature, when we are able to alleviate the branch, if the root is not rectified, the symptom(s) will return. All the best, On Friday, April 6, 2001, at 07:19 PM, Al Stone wrote: > Hola herbalistas, > > I'm wondering how frequently we can expect to run into issues of herb > tolerance. I have a patient with abdominal cramps due to Qi stagnation. > > I gave her a modified Si Ni San for week 1 and she reported a 70% > improvement. > > Week two I gave her basically the same formula, but she found that the > condition had returned somewhat, but still a 50% improvement from before > the treatments began. > > Week three, she reports that the problem has essentially returned to the > 100% mark. > > Was it all placebo and the herbs weren't really doing anything? Are > those with Qi stagnation pathologies more open to " healing suggestion " ? > > What do I do now? > > Stick with the same treatment principle, but change the herbs? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 wrote: > When we are able to > alleviate the branch, if the root is not rectified, the symptom(s) will > return. Thanks, Z'ev. And thanks to Alon, Juan, Heiko and Will too. There are many pathologies where there are obvious branches and obvious roots. This is a straight forward case of Qi stagnation. It seems to me that her emotions are basically what's underneath all of this. This woman has very thin skin too (physically, that is...). I've noticed that people with thin skin also have thin skin metaphorically. In otherwords, they are sensitive. This is a dual edged sword. On one hand, she is knocked about emotionally by the circumstances and more importantly the people in her life whether they intend on hurting her or not, but by the same token her sensitivity allows her the ability to get a very clear vibe on whom to trust and whom not to trust, and so on. So, I don't know that I consider her thin-skinned sensitivity a root or not. It is her nature. I can talk to her about how to look at life as neutral events in which we chose to react this way or that... I can perhaps teach her how to enter into the observer's mode so as to put a little bit of space in between she and her feelings, but that's hard work, and it will require quite a life commitment on her part to better work with her emotional make-up. What can I do to assist with this herbally? What do you use to treat something beneath Qi Stagnation. What can be beneath it? I can hear already hear Will typing up something about constitutional issues.. : ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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