Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Most of you know my position on herb dosage and my long held belief that most commercial liquid extracts cannot deliver adequate pharmacological activity to treat serious illnesses. the typical response has been that the herbs act on mechanisms other than pharmacology, such as energetics. This concept is so speculative and insupportable by any science I am familiar with that I could never accept it. However, against my better judgment and in deference to a colleague I work within clinic, I have begun to cautiously experiment using liquid extracts in patients who refuse to take bulk herbs. I used to rely on patent pills, but honestly have never been satisfied with those, either. Well, a couple of weeks ago, I was presented with a long standing very recalcitrant case of eczema, the sort of which I have never seen yield to anything but bulk or granules in high dose. the patient was a TCM student, who, ironically, like most students I work with has an almost stronger aversion to bulk than the typical layperson. so I reluctantly prescribed xiao feng san in liquid form a company that makes a fairly strong extract from about 30 grams of herb per ounce of final product. I prescribed 1 teaspoon TID, considerably higher than the label dosage. this would give the patient about 15 g per day of bulk herb constituents. Lo and behold, this rash which had been constant for 4 months was gone in 1.5 days and had not returned two weeks later. So I called the herb manufacturer to get some more info and found out that the product was made by a process that maintained very high activity of constituents. So even though actual constituent level was low relative to bulk, the activity was much higher. this was because the process prevented the damage done to constituents during decoction. So its like this. If you have 15 g of herb constits, but 2/3 are damaged by processing, then you really only have 5g. So a 15 g extract could conceivably be as potent as as 45 g of bulk tea. this still fairly low but getting into the range of acceptability for me. These extracts are also distinctly pharmacological, not energetic. the manufacturer also felt strongly about this. His products had activity that was measurable by conventional science. they are not akin to homeopathics in any way. that is not to say that homeopathy is bunk. I use it successfully on my pets all the time. But TCM is based on pharmacology not energetics. that is why low tech teas historically have ALWAYS been high dose. the high doses makes up for he damage done ot constituents. Now it is important to realize that the cost ot a patient using high enough dosage of these liquids is akin to powders (over $90 per month).. the manufacturer agreed and said the label dosages on such products have nothing to do with efficacy, but are all about liability. This does not apply to weak tinctures. they do not deliver adequate dosage unless you consume a bottle per day (which which cost the patient 200-300 per month). alcohol also bypasses general digestion and enters the bloodstream directly further potentiating the effect of these liquids. since many constits do not make it past the GI and liver, alcohol can deliver a far higher amount direct into the blood. Lets say alcohol double the activity, then a good liquid may actually be equivalent to 90 g per day of bulk in the dosage I used. Now we are in my ballpark. Now there still remains the issue of alcohol, which is a medicinal itself. However, alcohol in TCM is only thought to have medicinal effects when enough is drunk to begin to feel the intoxication. Medicinal wines are consumed in full glasses for example, not teaspoons. So arguably the small amount of alcohol consumed in such products is actually inconsequential. I know many of you are shocked to read this from me, but you also know how difficult eczema is to treat. I would have been moved if someone had less PMS one cycle or slept better. but for a recalcitrant rash to disappear, well that moved this person who could usually care less about anecdotes. Suffice it to say, only when I had an adequate biochemical explanation did any of this begin to make sense. -- Chinese Herbal Medicine FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 , wrote: I would have been > moved if someone had less PMS one cycle or slept better. This should say I would NOT have been moved .... > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Thank you for sharing your case. It goes without saying that I have championed this approach (water/alcohol concentrated extracts, not tinctures) for the last fourteen years, despite the naysayers, and, yes, the legitimate concerns about dosage, alcohol, etc. I wouldn't have kept it up this long if it wasn't working for my patients. I treat seriously ill patients, and the medicines need to work. I don't give out nostrums to people. I have few patients who can cook decoctions appropriately, and, yes, there is loss of constituents through indiscriminate boiling. I still write prescriptions for decoctions and give the spray-dry powder extracts as well, but the water-alcohol extracts are my favorite delivery method for Chinese medicinals. On Friday, April 20, 2001, at 12:23 PM, > Most of you know my position on herb dosage and my long held belief that > most commercial liquid extracts cannot deliver adequate pharmacological > activity to treat serious illnesses. the typical response has been that > the herbs act on mechanisms other than pharmacology, such as > energetics. This concept is so speculative and insupportable by any > science I am familiar with that I could never accept it. However, > against my better judgment and in deference to a colleague I work within > clinic, I have begun to cautiously experiment using liquid extracts in > patients who refuse to take bulk herbs. I used to rely on patent pills, > but honestly have never been satisfied with those, either. Well, a > couple of weeks ago, I was presented with a long standing very > recalcitrant case of eczema, the sort of which I have never seen yield > to anything but bulk or granules in high dose. the patient was a TCM > student, who, ironically, like most students I work with has an almost > stronger aversion to bulk than the typical layperson. so I reluctantly > prescribed xiao feng san in liquid form a company that makes a fairly > strong extract from about 30 grams of herb per ounce of final product. > I prescribed 1 teaspoon TID, considerably higher than the label dosage. > this would give the patient about 15 g per day of bulk herb > constituents. > > Lo and behold, this rash which had been constant for 4 months was gone > in 1.5 days and had not returned two weeks later. So I called the herb > manufacturer to get some more info and found out that the product was > made by a process that maintained very high activity of constituents. So > even though actual constituent level was low relative to bulk, the > activity was much higher. this was because the process prevented the > damage done to constituents during decoction. So its like this. If you > have 15 g of herb constits, but 2/3 are damaged by processing, then you > really only have 5g. So a 15 g extract could conceivably be as potent > as as 45 g of bulk tea. this still fairly low but getting into the > range of acceptability for me. These extracts are also distinctly > pharmacological, not energetic. the manufacturer also felt strongly > about this. His products had activity that was measurable by > conventional science. they are not akin to homeopathics in any way. > that is not to say that homeopathy is bunk. I use it successfully on my > pets all the time. But TCM is based on pharmacology not energetics. > that is why low tech teas historically have ALWAYS been high dose. the > high doses makes up for he damage done ot constituents. Now it is > important to realize that the cost ot a patient using high enough dosage > of these liquids is akin to powders (over $90 per month).. the > manufacturer agreed and said the label dosages on such products have > nothing to do with efficacy, but are all about liability. This does not > apply to weak tinctures. they do not deliver adequate dosage unless you > consume a bottle per day (which which cost the patient 200-300 per > month). alcohol also bypasses general digestion and enters the > bloodstream directly further potentiating the effect of these liquids. > since many constits do not make it past the GI and liver, alcohol can > deliver a far higher amount direct into the blood. Lets say alcohol > double the activity, then a good liquid may actually be equivalent to 90 > g per day of bulk in the dosage I used. Now we are in my ballpark. Now > there still remains the issue of alcohol, which is a medicinal itself. > However, alcohol in TCM is only thought to have medicinal effects when > enough is drunk to begin to feel the intoxication. Medicinal wines are > consumed in full glasses for example, not teaspoons. So arguably the > small amount of alcohol consumed in such products is actually > inconsequential. I know many of you are shocked to read this from me, > but you also know how difficult eczema is to treat. I would have been > moved if someone had less PMS one cycle or slept better. but for a > recalcitrant rash to disappear, well that moved this person who could > usually care less about anecdotes. Suffice it to say, only when I had > an adequate biochemical explanation did any of this begin to make sense. > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > FAX: > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Todd- If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know which it is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only one who'd like the benefit of your clinical experience. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. An archeologist is the best husband a woman can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her- Agatha Christie ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 , Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden@j...> wrote: - > > If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know which > it is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only one > who'd like the benefit of your clinical experience. > Karen I appreciate what you are saying, but I think I must refrain from an endorsement. there are probably several companies that meet the parameters I have laid out for an effective liquid extract. I would encourage interested parties to contact suppliers for information to make an informed decision. And I must discourage vested interests on this list from plugging their own product lines. As always, suppliers are free to become professional CHA members and get a link on my webpage. They can then promote themselves anyway they choose on their own webpages. Suppliers, for more info, go to http://www.inetarena.com/~/membership.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Yes, I would also like to know which company you used. Thanks. Catherine - Karen S Vaughan Friday, April 20, 2001 12:51 PM Re: liquid extracts-If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know whichit is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only onewho'd like the benefit of your clinical experience.Karen VaughanCreationsGarden***************************************Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.An archeologist is the best husband a woman can have; the older she gets,the more interested he is in her- Agatha Christie______________GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Ignore my previous message -- got sent out before I saw your response, Todd. Catherine - Catherine Hemenway Friday, April 20, 2001 3:58 PM Re: liquid extracts Yes, I would also like to know which company you used. Thanks. Catherine - Karen S Vaughan Friday, April 20, 2001 12:51 PM Re: liquid extracts-If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know whichit is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only onewho'd like the benefit of your clinical experience.Karen VaughanCreationsGarden***************************************Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.An archeologist is the best husband a woman can have; the older she gets,the more interested he is in her- Agatha Christie______________GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 I do not agree with your not sharing your herb source in conjunction with the case that you presented. Any good research paper/study will present in its materials and methods the manufacturer of the supplies that were used. This is basic scientific method, and I think this group should be held to a similar standard. I notice this in research papers regarding acupuncture as well. The type of needle/ length/gauge are often omitted. With the number of suppliers and different forms of herbs out there, for someone to say that a formula worked without knowing where they got it from is not helpful. This, of course, assumes individuals on this list understand they are participating for a common goal of supporting each other and the profession and not personal gain. Sean ********************************************Sean P. Doherty, M.Sc., M.S., L.Ac., D.N.B.A.O.Nashua Natural Medicine76 Northeastern Blvd., Unit 36ANashua, NH 03062ph(603) 579-0956fax(603) 579-0957Healthcare for the whole family...Naturally!www.nashuanaturalmedicine.com Friday, April 20, 2001 5:02 PM Subject: Re: liquid extracts, Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden@j...> wrote:-> > If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know which> it is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only one> who'd like the benefit of your clinical experience.> KarenI appreciate what you are saying, but I think I must refrain from an endorsement. there are probably several companies that meet the parameters I have laid out for an effective liquid extract. I would encourage interested parties to contact suppliers for information to make an informed decision. And I must discourage vested interests on this list from plugging their own product lines. As always, suppliers are free to become professional CHA members and get a link on my webpage. They can then promote themselves anyway they choose on their own webpages. Suppliers, for more info, go to http://www.inetarena.com/~/membership.htmlTodd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 I agree, as long as it is clear that the person sharing the information has no financial interest in the product. Plus, I don't believe there is any need to re-invent the wheel and for each of us to do the research into all the different companies. Why shouldn't this be part of the sharing of professional knowledge and experience? Catherine - Nashua Natural Medicine Friday, April 20, 2001 8:22 PM RE: Re: liquid extracts I do not agree with your not sharing your herb source in conjunction with the case that you presented. Any good research paper/study will present in its materials and methods the manufacturer of the supplies that were used. This is basic scientific method, and I think this group should be held to a similar standard. I notice this in research papers regarding acupuncture as well. The type of needle/ length/gauge are often omitted. With the number of suppliers and different forms of herbs out there, for someone to say that a formula worked without knowing where they got it from is not helpful. This, of course, assumes individuals on this list understand they are participating for a common goal of supporting each other and the profession and not personal gain. Sean ********************************************Sean P. Doherty, M.Sc., M.S., L.Ac., D.N.B.A.O.Nashua Natural Medicine76 Northeastern Blvd., Unit 36ANashua, NH 03062ph(603) 579-0956fax(603) 579-0957Healthcare for the whole family...Naturally!www.nashuanaturalmedicine.com Friday, April 20, 2001 5:02 PM Subject: Re: liquid extracts, Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden@j...> wrote:-> > If this extraction company is exceptionally good we'd like to know which> it is. Reply offlist if you must, but I suspect I'm not the only one> who'd like the benefit of your clinical experience.> KarenI appreciate what you are saying, but I think I must refrain from an endorsement. there are probably several companies that meet the parameters I have laid out for an effective liquid extract. I would encourage interested parties to contact suppliers for information to make an informed decision. And I must discourage vested interests on this list from plugging their own product lines. As always, suppliers are free to become professional CHA members and get a link on my webpage. They can then promote themselves anyway they choose on their own webpages. Suppliers, for more info, go to http://www.inetarena.com/~/membership.htmlTodd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 , " Nashua Natural Medicine " <sean@n...> wrote: With the number > of suppliers and different forms of herbs out there, for someone to say that > a formula worked without knowing where they got it from is not helpful. > This, of course, assumes individuals on this list understand they are > participating for a common goal of supporting each other and the profession > and not personal gain. Sean Your points are very well taken. So with some trepidation I will broach this subject. But I must warn members in advance that if anyone perceives this as an opening to begin promoting products for which they have a vested interest, you will be mistaken. I used a Chinese Classics formula from Far East Summit. In fairness, I believe Kan and China Herb products may be of similar potency. You will need to determine if the latter two lines are also cost effective. Also, we should not use this forum to disparage products we have found to be ineffective. While that is also important information, it is tricky legal territory to injur someone's business based on anecdotes rather than statistical or chemical analysis. so lets all tread lightly here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 I will add, , , , Even though I am sure almost everyone on this list knows that I design products and consult for Kan Herb Company, I am happy that it was a Far East Summit Product that worked. . . .I also have used China Herb Company extracts, and find them to be of high quality. The technology is the thing here, and I think Todd did an excellent job with this subject. His description of how he proposes the extracts work were food for thought for me ( on how the alcohol guides the medicinals into the blood). On Friday, April 20, 2001, at 10:39 PM, wrote: > , " Nashua Natural Medicine " <sean@n...> > wrote: > > With the number >> of suppliers and different forms of herbs out there, for someone to >> say that >> a formula worked without knowing where they got it from is not helpful. >> This, of course, assumes individuals on this list understand they are >> participating for a common goal of supporting each other and the >> profession >> and not personal gain. > > Sean > > Your points are very well taken. So with some trepidation I will > broach this subject. But I must warn members in advance that if anyone > perceives this as an opening to begin promoting products for which they > have a vested interest, you will be mistaken. I used a Chinese > Classics formula from Far East Summit. In fairness, I believe Kan and > China Herb products may be of similar potency. You will need to > determine if the latter two lines are also cost effective. Also, we > should not use this forum to disparage products we have found to be > ineffective. While that is also important information, it is tricky > legal territory to injur someone's business based on anecdotes rather > than statistical or chemical analysis. so lets all tread lightly here. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Which supplier was the Xiao Feng San from, if I may ask? Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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