Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 In the same link about St. John's wort, it was pointed out that SJW interacts with numerous drugs in unexpected ways. It affects liver clearance of drugs leading to inactivation of many drugs. It has led to organ rejection by inactivating the immunosuppressants used after transplants. Now many chinese herbs improve liver function so this calls into question the common and casual use of chinese herbs with patients using any drugs at all. This is a liability minefield. If you inactivate an antihypertensive drug with herbs and the patient has a stroke, you can probably kiss your license goodbye. At least one patient has died from taking antidepressants with SJW also. I think taking herbs with hormones, pain killers and NSAIDS is generally safe. I am also not concerned about cholesterol lowering drugs. However, antihypertensives, antidepressants, anti seizure meds are now on my caution lists. -- Chinese Herbal Medicine FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Now many Chinese herbs improve liver function so thiscalls into question the common and casual use of Chinese herbs withpatients using any drugs at all. >>>>It has nothing to do with improving liver function but which enzyme system is used to process the herbs and drugs. This will be a huge issue when more information becomes available. Alon - cha Saturday, April 21, 2001 1:35 PM more concerns In the same link about St. John's wort, it was pointed out that SJWinteracts with numerous drugs in unexpected ways. It affects liverclearance of drugs leading to inactivation of many drugs. It has led toorgan rejection by inactivating the immunosuppressants used aftertransplants. Now many chinese herbs improve liver function so thiscalls into question the common and casual use of chinese herbs withpatients using any drugs at all. This is a liability minefield. If youinactivate an antihypertensive drug with herbs and the patient has astroke, you can probably kiss your license goodbye. At least onepatient has died from taking antidepressants with SJW also. I thinktaking herbs with hormones, pain killers and NSAIDS is generally safe.I am also not concerned about cholesterol lowering drugs. However,antihypertensives, antidepressants, anti seizure meds are now on mycaution lists.--DirectorChinese Herbal Medicinehttp://www..orgFAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 We urgently need not only studies on herb/drug interactions, we also need data from TCM practitioners on their experiences on this subject. I teach about these issues at PCOM, and share my own experiences and analyses, but few have written about this subject. Other than myself, I am only aware of Bob Flaws, Subhuti Dharmananda, and John Chen. On Saturday, April 21, 2001, at 01:35 PM, > In the same link about St. John's wort, it was pointed out that SJW > interacts with numerous drugs in unexpected ways. It affects liver > clearance of drugs leading to inactivation of many drugs. It has led to > organ rejection by inactivating the immunosuppressants used after > transplants. Now many chinese herbs improve liver function so this > calls into question the common and casual use of chinese herbs with > patients using any drugs at all. This is a liability minefield. If you > inactivate an antihypertensive drug with herbs and the patient has a > stroke, you can probably kiss your license goodbye. At least one > patient has died from taking antidepressants with SJW also. I think > taking herbs with hormones, pain killers and NSAIDS is generally safe. > I am also not concerned about cholesterol lowering drugs. However, > antihypertensives, antidepressants, anti seizure meds are now on my > caution lists. > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > FAX: > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Now many Chinese herbs improve liver function so this > calls into question the common and casual use of Chinese herbs with > patients using any drugs at all. > > >>>>It has nothing to do with improving liver function but which enzyme system is used to process the herbs and drugs. what's the difference? One of the liver's role is to remove toxic substances from the body. Altering enzyme systems to do this more efficiently is an an enhancement of the liver's natural role. this is why elderly clear drugs less efficiently and need lower doses of certain substances - decreased liver clearance with age. So it is indeed an improvement in liver function that occurs through these herbs. I was stating a general principle and you were describing a specific mechanism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 I agree with you on this Alon. There is a relatively substantive discussion that takes place in the Chinese Journal of Integrated Traditional and Western Medicine. However, John Chen's background in pharmacy and herbs renders him more qualified to MSU. Also, I think there is a marked difference between trying to define pharmaceutical qualities according to TCM energetics -- and doing studies using herbs and pharmaceuticals together so as to uncover interactions be they potentization, mitigation, toxic side-effects or others. Will Other than myself, I am only aware of Bob Flaws, Subhuti Dharmananda, and John Chen. >>>>>And almost all is theoretical. Most look at the sideeffect of drugs and try to make up stuff. Even a cursory look at this method shows how weak it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 Other than myself, I am only aware of Bob Flaws, Subhuti Dharmananda, and John Chen.>>>>>And almost all is theoretical. Most look at the sideeffect of drugs and try to make up stuff. Even a cursory look at this method shows how weak it is. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 I agree. But we still need to start sharing our clinical experience with this phenomenon. On Sunday, April 22, 2001, at 10:03 AM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote: > Other than myself, I > am only aware of Bob Flaws, Subhuti Dharmananda, and John Chen. > >>>>>And almost all is theoretical. Most look at the sideeffect of drugs and try to make up stuff. > Even a cursory look at this method shows how weak it is. > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 Altering enzyme systems to do this more efficiently is an an enhancement of the liver's natural role. >>>The reactions are often due to usage of same enzyme systems, protein bounding etc., which results in alteration of blood levels and processing. Not improvement of their function. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 But we still need to start sharing our clinical experience with this phenomenon.>>>That would be much more voluble Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 .. However, John Chen's background in pharmacy and herbs renders him more qualified to MSU. >>>From what I have seen of Chen's information it is again trying to use pharmacological principals mixed with TCM functions and indications to MSU. As I try to stress all the time there is a world of deference between the test-tube (ie theory) and what occurs in humans (and this includes animal studies) and in vivo. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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