energetic vs. physical dosing-- Tinctures vs fluid extract concentrates.

[Guest guest]

Message: 23

Mon, 23 Apr 2001 06:17:25 -0000

Re: Fluid extracts vs. Tictures, Fresh vs Dry plants, Critical Doses.

 

Re:

> , I have found that they also have the light, energetic effects......

> >>>What does this mean?

> Alon

 

 

" Lighter " , meaning more subtle. " Energetic " meaning less dense than

pharmacological active constituents, which work more on the chemistry levels of

the body, which in turn affect the Qi. This does not imply that herbs don't

also work energetically to directly affect the Qi. They certainly may.

 

I am flatterred that you read my words so closely. I use those terms loosely as

a way of conveying a broader point which attempts to compare the energetic

nature of tinctures to biochemical nature of fluid extract concentrates. Though

tinctures are not homeopathics, they seem to be more " homeopathic-like " than

concentrated bulk teas & extracts, in that they somehow do seem to work, yet

don't provide nearly the level of Physical active

constituents as the TCM style of dosing. There is a lighter, more ascendant &

dispersing quality than the " heavy, physical " doses provided by the bulk teas or

concentrated extracts. This may be in part due to the high alcohol content, but

also due to the elements extracted from the cold extraction process for

tinctures, which does not typically capture the denser elements and constituents

of the plant, as does cooking.. I am not

implying that " physical / pharmacological " dosing is not energetic, nor that

light / signature dosing is not physical in its effects. Different properties

are extracted depending on the method, hence different qualitative effects.

Remember, a dilute homeopathic will have profound physical effects, though it is

merely an energetic dose, affecting Qi directly, rather than working on a

chemistry or physiological level in order to affect

the Qi.

 

I think that different dilutions & concentrations of herbs basically work on

different " layers " or levels of Qi, some more physical & some more energetic,

some deeper while others more superficial. In Homeopathy, the less diluted &

more concentrated extracts, (considered lower potencies), work on the physical &

acute levels of Qi, whereas the more diluted remedies, work deeper and tx more

chronic patterns.

 

Dr. Ted Kapchuk actually writes about these principles quite eloquently. He

explaines that high, concentrated doses are selected to address acute, physical

conditions, and lighter doses to address more psychological, emotional &

spiritual issues, (using respectively smaller or more dilute doses). Though

each can have effects systemically, the physician's skill comes from knowing

what level the patient is at and what level / layer to

treat first w/o doing too much or too little.

 

I was also discussing this topic w/ an TCM herbal expert, Dr. Kang one day in

the context of a Bo He / Mint extract preparation.. He explained to me that the

more concentrated the extract, the more it functions on the physical levels of

Qi. The less concentrated and shorter cooking time, the lighter, more ascendant

& dispersing its properties are. He explained further that when you want to

make a concentrate of an aromatic herb for

example, containing both " light & heavy " aspects, or in other words, containing

both " energetic and physiological " properties, first capture the light,

delicate, volatile properties using minimal / short processing time. Then, pour

this out & cover, add new water and cook the herb 2 times more, consecutively

longer each time, pouring out the last & adding new water each time. (the last

cooking pulls out the deepest constituents of

the plant by " cooking it to the bones " thereby extracting the cell salts & trace

minerals, which lend a slightly salty, flavor. (Thus, a light, dispersing,

aromatic herb like Bo He, can have tonifying properties to the kidneys on a

deeper level. ) Combine the 3 separate " preparations " into one and filter.

 

The result is a light., ascendant, dispersing & highly flavorful, aromatic

extract, yet also thick & dark--heavy in taste and deeply penetrating, being

slightly tonifying, at the same time. The alchemist of course would take their

extraction process further. They'd burn the herb dredges to ash, incinerate the

ash further, separating the trace minerals & cell salts, then add these back

into the extract which would " cure " underground &

under exposure to the sun & moon. They felt that this captured all aspects of

the plant's physical, energetic & spiritual properties & potentized the remedy,

for a " full spectrum " effect. One only needs to taste a well prepared spagyric

extract (rare), to tell its superiority over regular preparations.

 

While I know this is a long answer to your small question, and there are most

certainly more eloquent scholars online here than myself, who could clarify

things even better than I. I hope you get my basic point and perhaps a few

others.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dave.

[Guest guest]

.. I hope you get my basic point and perhaps a few others.Respectfully,>>Thanks for the reply

Alon

[Guest guest]

, Dave Ehrlichman <davee@n...> wrote:

 

>

> " Lighter " , meaning more subtle. " Energetic " meaning less dense than

pharmacological active constituents, which work more on the chemistry levels of

the body, which in turn affect the Qi. This does not imply that herbs don't

also work energetically to directly affect the Qi. They certainly may.

 

I personally do not believe that qi is anything other biochemistry

perceived from the holistic perspective of the human senses rather than

reductionistic analysis. All substances must act via physical,

chemical or electrical means thereby altering biochemistry and

function. I have yet to see any evidence that qi is other than this.

Even my experience in qi gong does not contradict this position. I

have seen low potency homeopathy work. I am quite skeptical about high

potency homeopathy.

 

 

> Dr. Ted Kapchuk actually writes about these principles quite eloquently. He

explaines that high, concentrated doses are selected to address acute, physical

conditions, and lighter doses to address more psychological, emotional &

spiritual issues,

 

 

eloquent except that he appears to have made this up, having never

cited sources and having been unable to find any confirmation from

other " experts " with access to the literature.

 

>

> I was also discussing this topic w/ an TCM herbal expert, Dr. Kang...

> example, containing both " light & heavy " aspects, or in other words,

containing both " energetic and physiological " properties,

 

I think you are reading your own interpretation into Dr. Kang's words.

Light and heavy in TCM do not correlate in my mind to energetic and

physiological. they are both degrees of physiological in my reckoning.

 

[Guest guest]

I personally do not believe that qi is anything other biochemistry

perceived from the holistic perspective of the human senses rather than

reductionistic analysis. All substances must act via physical,

chemical or electrical means thereby altering biochemistry and

function. I have yet to see any evidence that qi is other than this.

 

Biochemistry does not explain the effect of thoughts, emotions, or the

spiritual poisons on physiology. Spiritual poisons being such factors as:

ignorance, anger, coveting, envy, and pride, which are precursors to their

effects on biochemistry. Ignorance is not only just not knowing, but also

ignoring. That means not just other people and their emails but also the

intuition and sense perceptions (non-biochemical) that they receive. To see

life and the life-force, including qi, as merely biochemical seems

simplistic, as if we had figured it all out. Certainly biochemistry effects

our thoughts, emotions, and behavior but, the reverse also has been clearly

revealed as part of the Truth.

Stephen

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Biochemistry does not explain the effect of thoughts, emotions, or thespiritual poisons on physiology.

>>>>not true all that you are mentioning for example can be stimulated by electrical stimulation of the brain and subject can not tell if it is real or not

Alon

[Guest guest]

I totally support this point of view. It is a cornerstone of Chinese

medical thought, and can be found in the Classic of Categories by Zhang

Jing-yue (discussion of relationship of emotions to viscera and how they

cause disease). You can find an English language discussion in Claude

Larre's " The Seven Emotions " from Monkey Press.

 

 

 

 

On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 10:50 AM, Stephen Morrissey wrote:

 

> Biochemistry does not explain the effect of thoughts, emotions, or the

> spiritual poisons on physiology. Spiritual poisons being such factors

> as:

> ignorance, anger, coveting, envy, and pride, which are precursors to

> their

> effects on biochemistry. Ignorance is not only just not knowing, but

> also

> ignoring. That means not just other people and their emails but also

> the

> intuition and sense perceptions (non-biochemical) that they receive.

> To see

> life and the life-force, including qi, as merely biochemical seems

> simplistic, as if we had figured it all out. Certainly biochemistry

> effects

> our thoughts, emotions, and behavior but, the reverse also has been

> clearly

> revealed as part of the Truth.

> Stephen

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing

> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

> including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

Biochemistry does not explain the effect of thoughts, emotions, or

the

spiritual poisons on physiology.

>>>>not true all that you are mentioning for example

can be stimulated by electrical stimulation of the brain and subject can not

tell if it is real or not

Alon

 

Alon, are

you saying that our emotions are caused purely by electrical impulses in the

brain or would you consider that the reverse may be the case, at least in a

considerable percentage of instances.

And, what is an electrical impulse other than electrons releasing

photons as they fall back to their orbit of stability/inactivity. And photons (particles of light), if

you look back to basic physics, have, perhaps arguably, shown us to have high

levels of innate intelligence and awareness in the famous double slit

experiment. At least that was my

take on it.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Alon, are you saying that our emotions are caused purely by electrical impulses in the brain or would you consider that the reverse may be the case, at least in a considerable percentage of instances

>>>What I was saying is that one can stimulate brain tissue and elicit emotions, memories, and thought. To me this shows that we can not separate our existence from our chemistry.

Alon

[Guest guest]

.. It seems clear that both views are right, depending on if you look at it from a material or a spiritual point of view.

The good thing about chinese medicine for me is that it takes both looks.

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Dr. Peter Powalka " <mail@p...> wrote:

>

To me this shows that we can not separate

> our existence from our chemistry.

> Alon

>

> I think the question is not wether we can separate our existence from our

> chemistry. The question is wether our existence causes the chemistry to

> react or wether the chemistry changes our existence. It seems clear that

> both views are right, depending on if you look at it from a material or a

> spiritual point of view.

 

Peter

 

I think this is the key point here. It is not one hierarchy versus

another, not whether emotions cause chemistry or vice versa. It is the

fact that in the manifest world, emotions always have physiological

correlates and physiological stimulation always produces emotional

perceptions. these are all part of " reality " . I think the

hierarchical view that emotions or thoughts are precursors to

physiology is the new age equivalent to the modern scientific

reductionism that all emotions are secondary to physiology. the

chinese got it right. They all occur together and simultaneously. For

an eloquent discussion of this in brief, see Ken Wilber's The Marriage

of Sense and Soul, available from Shambhala.

 

[Guest guest]

 

-----Original

Message-----

Dr. Peter Powalka

[mail]

Thursday, April 26, 2001

2:44 PM

To:

 

AW:

Re: energetic vs. physical dosing-- Tinctures vs fluid extract concentrates.

--

Tinctures vs fluid extract concentrates.

 

I think the question is not wether we can separate our

existence from our chemistry. The question is wether our existence causes the

chemistry to react or wether the chemistry changes our existence. It

seems clear that both views are right, depending on if you look at it from a material

or a spiritual point of view.

The good thing about chinese medicine for me is that it takes

both looks.

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

 

-----Original

Message-----

Dr. Peter Powalka

[mail]

Thursday, April 26, 2001

2:44 PM

To:

 

AW:

Re: energetic vs. physical dosing-- Tinctures vs fluid extract concentrates.

--

Tinctures vs fluid extract concentrates.

 

I think the question is not wether we can separate our

existence from our chemistry. The question is wether our existence causes the

chemistry to react or wether the chemistry changes our existence. It

seems clear that both views are right, depending on if you look at it from a

material or a spiritual point of view.

The good thing about chinese medicine for me is that it takes

both looks.

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

 

 

> Again, if you look at the double slit experiment it provides

evidence that

> energy in the form of light has innate intelligence.

>

> Stephen

 

I think we should be careful here of what appears

to be a back-formation. It appears as if you

postulate the existence of " innate intelligence "

and find evidence of its existence in the famous

quantum double slit experiment.

 

It should be pointed out that what the double slit

experiment explicitly demonstrates is that there

is some (or are some) factor(s) operant in the

process of what Roger Penrose has termed " objective

reduction " of the quantum vector state for which

no satisfactory explanations yet exist.

 

Your statement seems to suggest that the double slit

experiment provides an edorsement to your postulated

" innate intelligence. " Strictly speaking, this is

not so, as there are plenty of other interpretations

of the double slit experiment.

 

I bring this up because I see the confluence of

Chinese medical theory and contemporary consciousness-,

especially the application of quantum mechanics and

quantum field theory to consciousness-studies to

be of enormous importance. And I think it is incumbent

on those who deal with this material to treat it

with a good deal of care and precision.

 

It has already been quite muddied up by people

who jump to conclusions, and whereas you didn't

actually jump, your discovery of evidence of

innate intelligence in the double slit experiment

is close to the edge.

 

I believe that the resolution of the mind-body

problem that underlies so much of the conundrum

of contemporary theoretical physics and consciousness

studies can be productively addressed using Chinese

medical theory, but again, only if this is done with

enormous care and attention to this kind of pitfall.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

From Ken: I think we should be careful here of what appears

to be a back-formation. It appears as if you

postulate the existence of " innate intelligence "

and find evidence of its existence in the famous

quantum double slit experiment.

 

 

From Stephen: I appreciate your cautionary concern. I believe you meant to

say what you said but may not have clearly stated what you meant. But in

honor of the null hypothesis, I'll assume what you said is not what you

didn't mean to say. The ice is quite thick in the area of postulating and

relating quantum theory to questions about the existence of consciousness.

As you know, debates about materialism vs consciousness theory have been

going on for millennia and modern physicists have entered the discussion en

force from the unique perspective of quantum theory for most of the 20th

century.

 

 

From Ken: It should be pointed out that what the double slit

experiment explicitly demonstrates is that there

is some (or are some) factor(s) operant in the

process of what Roger Penrose has termed " objective

reduction " of the quantum vector state for which

no satisfactory explanations yet exist.

Your statement seems to suggest that the double slit

experiment provides an edorsement to your postulated

" innate intelligence. " Strictly speaking, this is

not so, as there are plenty of other interpretations

of the double slit experiment.

 

 

From Stephen: as far as I know, it is impossible within the confines of

currently accepted scientific understanding to conclusively prove the

existence of consciousness or innate intelligence. There are many things

science cannot prove that we know to be true. Is this one of them?

Postulation is necessary to advance any concept or understanding to a higher

level. For a photon to objectively perceive or " reduce " , as Roger Penrose

states, to me is one step beyond mechanistic manifestation. The word I used

was " evidence " which means to " indicate or suggest " . Thomas Edison

postulated " ...every atom is possessed by a certain amount of primitive

intelligence: look at the thousand ways in which atoms of hydrogen combine

with those of other elements...Do you mean to say they do this without

intelligence? " And from Einstein: " It is enough for me to contemplate the

mystery of conscious life, perpetuating itself through all eternity - to

dimly perceive - and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part

of the intelligence manifested in nature " .

 

It has already been quite muddied up by people

who jump to conclusions, and whereas you didn't

actually jump, your discovery of evidence of

innate intelligence in the double slit experiment

is close to the edge.

 

From Stephen: I can't exactly claim to have made a " discovery " . Far from

it. Just looking for " evidence " to support a conclusion that intuitively

makes sense to me.

 

I believe that the resolution of the mind-body

problem that underlies so much of the conundrum

of contemporary theoretical physics and consciousness

studies can be productively addressed using Chinese

medical theory, but again, only if this is done with

enormous care and attention to this kind of pitfall.

 

From Stephen: I would be interested pursuing this thread. I for one would

appreciate if you could facilitate the discussion. However I can't imagine

one can reach reasonable conclusions without some intelligent interpretation

of original intentions and accepting that there were postulations by authors

of the original Chinese source materials that might be used as references.

To put this in a context that remains appropriate for this list, I had also

made gap-leaping postulation that this issue related to the mechanism by

which different dose levels affect humans, small via innate intelligence and

larger via biochemical.

Physicist Heinz Pagels told a story in his book, " Cosmic Code: Quantum

Mechanics as the Language of Nature " . According to the story, Pauli once

came to Pupin Laboratory at Colombia Uinversity to give a lecture on

Heisenberg's new nonlinear theory of elementary particles. Neils Bohr was

in the audience, and after the lecture he remarked that the new theory

couldn't be right because it wasn't crazy enough. Bohr and Pauli were soon

standing on opposite ends of a table with Bohr saying, " It's not crazy

enough " and Pauli responding with " It is crazy enough! "

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.