Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Kind the beginning of some thoughts I have been having. Apologies in advance who don't approve of this type of speculation. I've been studying the effects of growth hormone recently. And the research that I've been doing has let me consider some relationships between kidney tonics and this hormone. I have specifically been looking into the role of certain amino acids which are used by people involved in the areas as diverse as body building or life extension in order to induce the release of growth hormone, either for the purpose of enlarging ones muscles or for the purpose of increasing a persons youthfulness . Large doses of amino acids are thought to induce the release of growth hormone probably by affecting control mechanisms, rather than providing building blocks for the hormone itself. This has led me to consider what it is that kidney tonics are actually doing when we ingest them. The reason kidney yang and essence tonics came to mind is because kidney tonics have been shown to have an effect of increasing the amount of circulating growth hormone in the body. And because research in China and indicates that kidney yang and essence tonics exert their activity in the body by also affecting control mechanisms. Though many of these herbs contain hormones like substances, the amount that is absorbed into the body even when taken in the form of very high dosage decoctions is on the order of 1000 times less than the amount of the endogenous hormone that the body produces itself. The substances (amino acids and kidney tonics) also have similar actions upon the body as does the administration of growth hormone itself. These include various changes associated with youth, such as increased strength, better muscle tone, higher metabolism, increased sex drive, etc. Growth hormone has become very popular therapy among the rich, especially in Europe. It is also have been ignored following here in the United States, as well. However it is extremely expensive, as a can cost up to $10,000 per month. It is the shown to have rather remarkable fax, but it also has the risk inherent in the use of any exogenous hormone for an extended period of time. Because of this, growth hormone releasing substances have become very popular in recent years. I postulate that perhaps kidney tonics are more akin to growth hormone releasing factors and other hormone releasing factors than they are to some things like vitamins (this should not be confused with things like TSH, a hormone itself. Releasing factors are substances derived from food or herbs. Interestingly, the mechanism I'm proposing is similar to the mechanism by which we understand the drug like Prozac works. In fact, as I understand the modern Chinese research on the subject, this is exactly how the mechanisms of these herbs is beginning to be understood. This seemed to have various effects on the function of the body, such as altering receptor activity or increasing the circulation of certain substances in the bloodstream by inhibiting their reuptake. They may also affect feedback mechanisms. So in order for these herbs to affect the hormonal system it again is not about providing building blocks for the body but actually affecting the control mechanisms instead. One of the interesting thoughts that comes up in connection with this idea is the whole way we tend to think of the terms of supplementing and draining as if it is purely quantitative. In other words, some thing is either added or removed from the body. Now this thing may be something tangible like yin or something less tangible like yang. But in either case it is definitely thought of as something (by me) that is conceptualized quantitatively. Personally , I think the use of the terms excess and deficiency somewhat lend themselves to this quantitative reductionism. Of course we tend to evaluate where going on with patients in the practice of Chinese medicine with more qualitative analysis. So, and Let Ken correct me if I'm completely off base, but should these terms also be considered qualitatively . In this case I am referring specifically to the terms supplement and drain, vacuity and repletion . If you think of these terms more along lines of how they affect the qi, then we move to a Chinese version of affecting the control mechanisms. So to add yang or essence to the body, you begin to think of this in terms of how the yang alters the function of the body rather than providing raw materials, per se. So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances. I am certain I am not the first person to think of this . This is merely the first time that I have been able to express it somewhat succinctly. All this has thus led me to consider the issues of longevity, aging and what it means to follow nature. To a certain extent, merely following nature blindly leads to succumbing to our basic animal instincts and urges would lead us to eat till we are completely gorged during times of abundance, to reproducing endless children and to generally practice activities that were designed for short-term reproductive fitness of the species and not long-term survival of the individual. But the very nature of civilization is such that we do many different things to thwart this natural process. And I would argue that many of these things that we do that probably have led to being such a long lived species. By learning to discipline ourselves with regard to things like diet and exercise and to work on harmonizing our emotional and mental lives. The use of the tonic herbs in Chinese medicine is a particularly telling example, as it is my understanding that the knowledge of many of these herbs was acquired by daoist practitioners who were exploring the issues of longevity and even immortality. One of the things these practitioners supposedly discovered in their quest was that extreme measures could be taken to increase the lifespans even beyond all one acquire by the aforementioned regimen. These extreme measures included the use of certain medicinal substances and the practice of certain meditation techniques. It is well known that a variety of hormones decline as one ages. These include growth hormone, testosterone, Melatonin and, estrogen. This seems to be a natural unavoidable part of the course of life. Some longevity researchers have actually suggested that this mechanism is programmed into us. It may be that kidney tonic herbs and other growth hormone releasing substances exert their actions upon the body in a safe manner is because they introduced a new piece of programming to the control mechanisms and for lack of a better analogy, the software is compatible. So the programmed mechanism of aging becomes thwarted by the use of these substances. Certain meditation practices have also been shown to have been a factor on the levels of various hormonal control mechanisms of the body. So when you combine these two things together, you could conceivably have a dramatic effect on health and longevity. It is often understood by longevity researchers that what substances like the growth hormone releasing factors basically do is slowing the process of aging, not end it an altogether. This is reflected in experiments that have shown that people who have done certain practices have measures of biological age there often much younger than their chronological years. -- Chinese Herbal Medicine FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Interesting stuff that you wrote there Todd. I also have an interest in HGH and the aging factor. It started because I had so many body builders and martial artists as patients who wanted an edge.The problem I had with them was that they would take EVERY supplement and drug and my treatment as well.I only a few who ONLY took my treatment and they seemed to respond better and all the others thought they were taking some special drug from the black market. After some time I didn't go with the tonic concept though. One thing that happens as we age is that our sleep patterns change ........we start snoring .......and we get nocturia and get less REM sleep. If its programmed into us to age , I thought its possible that the programming may be by passed if treatment could improve rem sleep.I had a group of 10 patients who tried my treatment to see if it would influence HgH. Most people noticed the following...........improved muscle tone more so in the triceps wierd dreams in some cases needing more sleep improvement in skin less snoring quicker fitness recovery time if restarting exercise after a break Dramatic improvement in nocturia but only in the women One of the guys said he wanted to drive his faster With the patients concerned I was unable to ask about libido. THEN , someone found out I was also doing a paper on MS and had sent out a survey to the MS society this and and I got a letter from the Bio ethics people saying I can't do research woithout approval and the medical centre I was working from then wouldn't do the blood tests either. Such is fate. I moved to Christchurch , 5 hours away. Interestingly one of the 10 had Huntington's and his wife assures me his twitches have lessened. I still get calls from the friends of the group who want the stuff to stop them pissing at night. Did you know that HgH levels are at their highest between 7-8 am.Could this be because the stomach , in some way influences the post natal jing? Heiko > Kind the beginning of some thoughts I have been having. Apologies in > advance who don't approve of this type of speculation. > > I've been studying the effects of growth hormone recently. And the > research that I've been doing has let me consider some relationships > between kidney tonics and this hormone. I have specifically been > looking into the role of certain amino acids which are used by people > involved in the areas as diverse as body building or life extension in > order to induce the release of growth hormone, either for the purpose > of enlarging ones muscles or for the purpose of increasing a persons > youthfulness . Large doses of amino acids are thought to induce the > release of growth hormone probably by affecting control mechanisms, > rather than providing building blocks for the hormone itself. This has > led me to consider what it is that kidney tonics are actually doing when > we ingest them. The reason kidney yang and essence tonics came to mind > is because kidney tonics have been shown to have an effect of increasing > the amount of circulating growth hormone in the body. And because > research in China and indicates that kidney yang and essence tonics > exert their activity in the body by also affecting control mechanisms. > Though many of these herbs contain hormones like substances, the amount > that is absorbed into the body even when taken in the form of very high > dosage decoctions is on the order of 1000 times less than the amount of > the endogenous hormone that the body produces itself. > > The substances (amino acids and kidney tonics) also have similar actions > upon the body as does the administration of growth hormone itself. > These include various changes associated with youth, such as increased > strength, better muscle tone, higher metabolism, increased sex drive, > etc. Growth hormone has become very popular therapy among the rich, > especially in Europe. It is also have been ignored following here in > the United States, as well. However it is extremely expensive, as a can > cost up to $10,000 per month. It is the shown to have rather remarkable > fax, but it also has the risk inherent in the use of any exogenous > hormone for an extended period of time. Because of this, growth hormone > releasing substances have become very popular in recent years. I > postulate that perhaps kidney tonics are more akin to growth hormone > releasing factors and other hormone releasing factors than they are to > some things like vitamins (this should not be confused with things like > TSH, a hormone itself. Releasing factors are substances derived from > food or herbs. Interestingly, the mechanism I'm proposing is similar to > the mechanism by which we understand the drug like Prozac works. In > fact, as I understand the modern Chinese research on the subject, this > is exactly how the mechanisms of these herbs is beginning to be > understood. This seemed to have various effects on the function of the > body, such as altering receptor activity or increasing the circulation > of certain substances in the bloodstream by inhibiting their reuptake. > They may also affect feedback mechanisms. > > So in order for these herbs to affect the hormonal system it again is > not about providing building blocks for the body but actually affecting > the control mechanisms instead. One of the interesting thoughts that > comes up in connection with this idea is the whole way we tend to think > of the terms of supplementing and draining as if it is purely > quantitative. In other words, some thing is either added or removed > from the body. Now this thing may be something tangible like yin or > something less tangible like yang. But in either case it is definitely > thought of as something (by me) that is conceptualized quantitatively. > Personally , I think the use of the terms excess and deficiency somewhat > lend themselves to this quantitative reductionism. Of course we tend to > evaluate where going on with patients in the practice of Chinese > medicine with more qualitative analysis. So, and Let Ken correct me if > I'm completely off base, but should these terms also be considered > qualitatively . In this case I am referring specifically to the terms > supplement and drain, vacuity and repletion . If you think of these > terms more along lines of how they affect the qi, then we move to a > Chinese version of affecting the control mechanisms. So to add yang or > essence to the body, you begin to think of this in terms of how the yang > alters the function of the body rather than providing raw materials, per > se. > > So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is > supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather > than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances. > I am certain I am not the first person to think of this . This is > merely the first time that I have been able to express it somewhat > succinctly. All this has thus led me to consider the issues of > longevity, aging and what it means to follow nature. To a certain > extent, merely following nature blindly leads to succumbing to our basic > animal instincts and urges would lead us to eat till we are completely > gorged during times of abundance, to reproducing endless children and to > generally practice activities that were designed for short-term > reproductive fitness of the species and not long-term survival of the > individual. But the very nature of civilization is such that we do many > different things to thwart this natural process. And I would argue that > many of these things that we do that probably have led to being such a > long lived species. By learning to discipline ourselves with regard to > things like diet and exercise and to work on harmonizing our emotional > and mental lives. The use of the tonic herbs in Chinese medicine is a > particularly telling example, as it is my understanding that the > knowledge of many of these herbs was acquired by daoist practitioners > who were exploring the issues of longevity and even immortality. > > One of the things these practitioners supposedly discovered in their > quest was that extreme measures could be taken to increase the lifespans > even beyond all one acquire by the aforementioned regimen. These > extreme measures included the use of certain medicinal substances and > the practice of certain meditation techniques. It is well known that a > variety of hormones decline as one ages. These include growth hormone, > testosterone, Melatonin and, estrogen. This seems to be a natural > unavoidable part of the course of life. Some longevity researchers have > actually suggested that this mechanism is programmed into us. It may be > that kidney tonic herbs and other growth hormone releasing substances > exert their actions upon the body in a safe manner is because they > introduced a new piece of programming to the control mechanisms and for > lack of a better analogy, the software is compatible. So the programmed > mechanism of aging becomes thwarted by the use of these substances. > Certain meditation practices have also been shown to have been a factor > on the levels of various hormonal control mechanisms of the body. So > when you combine these two things together, you could conceivably have a > dramatic effect on health and longevity. It is often understood by > longevity researchers that what substances like the growth hormone > releasing factors basically do is slowing the process of aging, not end > it an altogether. This is reflected in experiments that have shown that > people who have done certain practices have measures of biological age > there often much younger than their chronological years. > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > FAX: > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Todd the Needle, I think you've needled the right point here. My reading of the operant terms, namely yin1 yang2 and qi4 supports your speculation that what we do...or ought to be doing... with traditional Chinese therapeutics is to enhance the body's inherent abilities to interact harmoniously with environmental stimuli as well as the various compensatory changes in which the body engages as a result of such stimulation. A good illustrative example, I suggest, of why it is important to be critical of the term equivalents that we accept, so that the original meaning of terms such as vacuity and repletion is retained. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 .. It is also have been ignored following here inthe United States, as well. >>>Growth hormone are available as a spray and are not as expensive. However, the risk benefit ratio is unclear as of yet. I defiantly do no suggest people using it unless serum IGF1 is significantly low. Growth hormone can aggravate diabetes and glucose control and the affects on the prostate are still debatable. The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people > Alon Have you seen this study? http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/growthc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people > Alon According to what I have read there are number of reasons why this may be so. GH is stimulated by amino acids in combination with exercise or sleep. If they are taken at other times, there will be no increase in GH. If the AA's are taken with food, they will not cross the blood brain barrier. If l-arginine is taken with other AA's, it will not work. If aminos are not taken at correct dosage, then they will not work. the dosage for l-arginine is extremely high, thus not very cost effective. but glutamine is much lower and research supports the use of arginine pyroglutamate with lysine as well (l-arginine is not the same as arginine pyroglutamate; they attach to different receptors). As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is that a contraindiation. the whole point of life extension is that GH declines with age under " normal " circumstances and perhaps restoring GH to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable point. Of interest is that GH stimulates DHEA production, which leads to increased testosterone and estrogen. But unlike taking exogenous hormones of any kind,the use of GH releasers does not affect normal feedback mechanisms. this means the body is never induced to produce more GH or other hormones than is physiologically normal for a young person. the use of exogenous hormones can lead to very high blood levesl of hormone and disrupt the feedback mechanisms. I believe this is why various cancers are associated with hormone use, including DHEA, but not with releasers, which actually seem to inhibit cancer. So all this begs the question of when to use such substances, including kidney tonics. I believe GH seems to have essence supplementing effects, not yin OR yang. On one hand it stimulates metabolism and energy, on the other it promotes good sleep and calms agitation in physiologic doses. So essence xu might indicate the use of these aminos and likewise the use of essence tonics might be indicated to release GH. So when does one use essence tonics. Now in medicine, we normally look for signs and symptoms to indicate their usage. However,for longevity, we might consider that by the time we have symptoms, the vacuity is already pretty pronounced. Maybe a tender tongue or weak kidney pulse are all that is necessary. Maybe being of a certain age without pronounced kidney xu sx, but noticeable decline in youthful vigor is enough. I think the key is to avoid taking tonics when there is prominent repletion present. But otherwise, I think there are circumstance short of severe symptomology that indicate their usage. As long as one combine vigorous exercise and a diet that is cleanand clear, I think the chances of causing adverse effects are not as bad as might be made out. start with low doses of herbs or supplements and monitor tongue and pulse carefully. No short term harm will be done if you are mistaken. We have a professor here at PCOM who is very big on making essence xu dx in people of all ages and he often prescribes strong tonics with impressive results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Yes and other studies. But on my own pt I have seen several failures so I stopped using. This includes PRO-hGH and MEDITROPIN Alon - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:37 AM Re: control mechanisms , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people> AlonHave you seen this study?http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/growthc.htmlToddThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is that a contraindication. the whole point of life extension is that GH declines with age under "normal" circumstances and perhaps restoring GH to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable point.>>>>Again this conversation is in the ralm of theory and speculation. The studies are very poorly done and contradictory. GH does not seem to help people with normal levels for their age. My experience with releasers (taken correctly) and flowing blood levels were mostly disappointing. One thing is it seems that people are willing to take much more chances trying stuff if it is so called alternative even though the risks are not known. Much of the information comes from manufactures and interested parties. Alon - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:39 AM Re: control mechanisms , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people> AlonAccording to what I have read there are number of reasons why this may be so. GH is stimulated by amino acids in combination with exercise or sleep. If they are taken at other times, there will be no increase in GH. If the AA's are taken with food, they will not cross the blood brain barrier. If l-arginine is taken with other AA's, it will not work. If aminos are not taken at correct dosage, then they will not work. the dosage for l-arginine is extremely high, thus not very cost effective. but glutamine is much lower and research supports the use of arginine pyroglutamate with lysine as well (l-arginine is not the same as arginine pyroglutamate; they attach to different receptors).As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is that a contraindiation. the whole point of life extension is that GH declines with age under "normal" circumstances and perhaps restoring GH to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable point.Of interest is that GH stimulates DHEA production, which leads to increased testosterone and estrogen. But unlike taking exogenous hormones of any kind,the use of GH releasers does not affect normal feedback mechanisms. this means the body is never induced to produce more GH or other hormones than is physiologically normal for a young person. the use of exogenous hormones can lead to very high blood levesl of hormone and disrupt the feedback mechanisms. I believe this is why various cancers are associated with hormone use, including DHEA, but not with releasers, which actually seem to inhibit cancer. So all this begs the question of when to use such substances, including kidney tonics. I believe GH seems to have essence supplementing effects, not yin OR yang. On one hand it stimulates metabolism and energy, on the other it promotes good sleep and calms agitation in physiologic doses. So essence xu might indicate the use of these aminos and likewise the use of essence tonics might be indicated to release GH. So when does one use essence tonics. Now in medicine, we normally look for signs and symptoms to indicate their usage. However,for longevity, we might consider that by the time we have symptoms, the vacuity is already pretty pronounced. Maybe a tender tongue or weak kidney pulse are all that is necessary. Maybe being of a certain age without pronounced kidney xu sx, but noticeable decline in youthful vigor is enough. I think the key is to avoid taking tonics when there is prominent repletion present. But otherwise, I think there are circumstance short of severe symptomology that indicate their usage. As long as one combine vigorous exercise and a diet that is cleanand clear, I think the chances of causing adverse effects are not as bad as might be made out. start with low doses of herbs or supplements and monitor tongue and pulse carefully. No short term harm will be done if you are mistaken. We have a professor here at PCOM who is very big on making essence xu dx in people of all ages and he often prescribes strong tonics with impressive results.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 02:01 AM, > So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is > supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather > than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances. I think since most herbal medicinals are 'crude' substances, involving the qi transformation to synthesize them into ying/constructive qi, that this is quite true. Polypharmacy plant prescriptions are not designed to DIRECTLY relieve vacuities, but facilitate the body in correcting its own vacuities (while providing raw materials to help it do so). I also think acupuncture works similarly to this as well. This is also why, per another post, why I don't think that liu wei di huang wan is 'estrogenic' per say or a direct danger to breast cancer patients, unless given in very large doses. And, of course, it has to be indicated according to pattern diagnosis. Without true yin xu, this prescription should not be used symptomatically to 'boost the immune system' or 'treat the side-effects of chemotherapy' unless the symptom pattern, tongue and pulse indicate that this is the correct prescription. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: > Did you know that HgH levels are at their highest between 7-8 am.Could this be because the stomach , in some way influences the post natal jing? > > Heiko Hi Heiko, Sorry for the late reply, I only just came on board. I've only just started a degree course in Naturopathy / TCM so my reply is very western medicine based. GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin. The age related reduction in GH release is primarilly driven by the slowly rising level of Insulin seen as we age. Rising Insulin progressively increases the release of the hormone Somatostatin which works on the pituitary as a negative feedback agent (aka GHIN, Growth Hormone Inhibiting Hormone) to reduce GH release. Here is a example of normal GH release during a 24 hour period: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/GH24hour2.jpg More western medicine based GH information is available on my web site below. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: Hi Alon, > Growth hormone are available as a spray and are not as expensive. The bioavialibility is only around 3 % so this is a very expensive and non effective way to boost GH. > However, the risk benefit ratio is unclear as of yet. I defiantly do no suggest people using it unless serum IGF1 is significantly low. I totally agree. Diet, exercise & fasting are good ways to boost natural GH release. Medical research has shown a 50 % reduction in GH release for every increase in BMI of 1.5 due to body fat & Insulin increase. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/bmigh.htm > Growth hormone can aggravate diabetes and glucose control and the affects on the prostate are still debatable. The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people Injectable GH will increase Insulin resistance. Pituitary stimulated GH release, which does not void the bodies control loops and avoids Insulin / GH hormonal clashes does not. Also pituitary stimulated GH release maintains the IGF-1 negative feedback loop, which stops IGF-1 getting too high and out of the normal control range. Failure of amino GH boosters is normally due to most of the commercial products being not much more than " Snake Oil " or high level of Insulin. Sorry if this is all western medicine based. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Thanks Greg First I must say that I made a mistake in saying that HgH levels are highest at 7-8 am.........its actually testosterone that is highest at that time. After reading your piece , I am wondering if longivety could be promoted if herbs that decrease insulin levels be used to then stimulate and keep HgH levels higher. Still it comes down to individual imbalance and the appropriate needs of the patients , I will have a look at your web page and get back to you. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Yes and other studies. But on my own pt I have seen several > failures so I stopped using. This includes PRO-hGH and MEDITROPIN > Alon Hi Alon, I have researched PRO-hGH and can tell you it is junk. Over 75 % carbs and the amount of the GH aminos are VERY small. Looks like they threw in every amino known to stimulate GH release to cover all the bases. Do you know what your fasting Insulin is? How about the surrogate Insulin ratio TG / HDL? If they are in the " Normal " range, 3 g of APGL should work very well. I'm 54 and have a IGF-1 of 325. A month off APGL dropped it to 230, then a month back on APGL brought it back up again. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 - " Heiko Lade " <heiko Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:36 PM Re: Re: control mechanisms > After reading your piece , I am wondering if longevity could be promoted > if herbs that decrease insulin levels be used to then stimulate and keep > HgH levels higher. Hi Heiko, You are spot on! Insulin is more & more being indicated as one of the prime drivers of aging. High levels of Insulin have been shown to cause: 1) Increased Insulin resistance, decreased Insulin sensitivity 2) High level of blood glucose 3) Deceased glucose tolerance 4) High level of AGE cross links 5) High levels of liver produced LDLs & Triglycerides 6) Reduced liver produced HDL 7) Imbalances in brain neurotransmitter hormones 8) Increased fat storage and decreased ability to use fat as energy 9) Decreased GH release Ok, enough but I consider high Insulin & Glucose as being the prime drivers of what we call aging and any one who is serious about Anti-Aging needs to get their Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance & lipid profiles into the youthful range before starting to do anything about boosting dropping hormonal levels. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 I have researched PRO-hGH and can tell you it is junk. Over 75 % carbs and the amount of the GH aminos are VERY small.>>>Does not surprise me. There is so much junk out there. Good marketing and poor science make many billionaires. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Ok, enough but I consider high Insulin & Glucose as being the prime drivers of what we call aging and any one who isserious about Anti-Aging needs to get their Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance & lipid profiles into the youthful range>>>>>I see you are into syndrome X Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance & lipid profiles >>>>>I see you are into syndrome X Alon Alon, What do you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by the IFM group? Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 , " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen@b...> wrote: > Alon, > What do you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by > the IFM group? > Stephen > seems like a discussion and research into the blood sugar regulating properties of chinese herbs is in order. more later. BTW, greg, we love the biomedical info. keep it coming. It will feedback into TCM as we digest it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Alon, What do you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by the IFM group? >>>>I would have to think about for a while. Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients > > Alon I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen on blood sugar levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10977009 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract In , @i... wrote: > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > > > > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. > > > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients > > > > Alon > > I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to > obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are > involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition > to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly > interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang > qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Species of Dioscorea also come to mind: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=2392490 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=3713229 & dopt=Abstract - In , @i... wrote: > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > > > > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. > > > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients > > > > Alon > > I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to > obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are > involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition > to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly > interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang > qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 , wsheir@a... wrote: > > Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen on blood sugar > levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below: > thanks warren. my list was partial, for sure. I was thinking that since these herbs all lower blood sugar by methods OTHER than raising insulin, they lead to the desired outcome suggested by Greg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 , gowatson@a... wrote: > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > I'm 54 and have a IGF-1 of 325. A month off APGL dropped it to 230, > then a month back on APGL brought it back up again. > what sources or products do you use for APGL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 , gowatson@a... wrote: > > GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short > Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin > release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin. It is interesting to note that the common syndromeof hypoglycemia may involve increased insulin, while many type 2 diabetics actually also have increased insulin, but high tissue resistance as well. It is incorrectly assumed that diabetes usually involves low insulin, especially in early to mid stage type 2. However, those diabetics with truly low insulin certainly do not seem to be in better health. Paradox or is some middle ground actually ideal? todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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