Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 I don't think I told this group about my site yet, so here it goes. This website is basically a 'summary' of everything I have learned (and I do mean everything) and it just so happens to boil down to Chinese Five Element theory http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm I would appreciate any input, particularly about the herbs and food energetics sections (table-charts). Does this all look correct? Does anything need to be changed? Does anybody have anything for me to put on this site? I would really appreciate your help in making this site as correct and complete as possible. Thanks, Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements Alon - leelieske Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:27 AM Chinese Five Elements I don't think I told this group about my site yet, so here it goes.This website is basically a 'summary' of everything I have learned (and I do mean everything) and it just so happens to boil down to Chinese Five Element theoryhttp://www.lieske.com/5e.htmI would appreciate any input, particularly about the herbs and food energetics sections (table-charts).Does this all look correct?Does anything need to be changed?Does anybody have anything for me to put on this site?I would really appreciate your help in making this site as correct and complete as possible.Thanks,LeeChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements > Alon could it be, I daresay, MSU. I await the reply with bated breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 This has to do with an applied kinesiology. It deals with the traditional meridians, therefore, they (should) have something to do with the elements themselves. I got this from his book 'Touch for Health'. , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements > Alon > - > leelieske > > Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:27 AM > Chinese Five Elements > > > I don't think I told this group about my site yet, so here it goes. > This website is basically a 'summary' of everything I have learned > (and I do mean everything) and it just so happens to boil down to > Chinese Five Element theory > > http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm > > I would appreciate any input, particularly about the herbs and food > energetics sections (table-charts). > Does this all look correct? > Does anything need to be changed? > Does anybody have anything for me to put on this site? > > I would really appreciate your help in making this site as correct > and complete as possible. > > Thanks, > Lee > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Since you asked. . . . The " Touch for Health " stuff is highly speculative, as far as five phase correspondences goes, The information is not from within the Chinese medical tradition. I think you need to list your sources for other stuff, like herbs and spices associated with five phases, so that your readers can check for reliability against Chinese sources. On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 10:11 AM, leelieske wrote: > This has to do with an applied kinesiology. It deals with the > traditional meridians, therefore, they (should) have something to do > with the elements themselves. > I got this from his book 'Touch for Health'. > > > > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: >> do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with > the elements >> Alon >> - >> leelieske >> >> Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:27 AM >> Chinese Five Elements >> >> >> I don't think I told this group about my site yet, so here it > goes. >> This website is basically a 'summary' of everything I have > learned >> (and I do mean everything) and it just so happens to boil down to >> Chinese Five Element theory >> >> http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm >> >> I would appreciate any input, particularly about the herbs and > food >> energetics sections (table-charts). >> Does this all look correct? >> Does anything need to be changed? >> Does anybody have anything for me to put on this site? >> >> I would really appreciate your help in making this site as > correct >> and complete as possible. >> >> Thanks, >> Lee >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 MSU:- are they the people that call the pericardium or san jiao the " circulation -sex " meridian? ............pretty well confirms MSU Heiko wrote: > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements > > Alon > > could it be, I daresay, MSU. I await the reply with bated breath. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 For me all muscle testing is MSU I now I now Alon - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:57 AM Re: Chinese Five Elements , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements> Aloncould it be, I daresay, MSU. I await the reply with bated breath. :)ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 I first was exposed to " Touch For Health " 25 years ago in New Mexico. . . .some guy who worked in a health food store took a few seminars based on the book and was teaching it. To say the least, the state of knowledge about five phase theory (five elements) 25 years ago in English was rudimentary to say the least. On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 05:48 PM, Heiko Lade wrote: > MSU:- are they the people that call the pericardium or san jiao the > " circulation -sex " meridian? ............pretty well confirms MSU > > Heiko > > wrote: > >> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: >>> do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with >>> the elements >>> Alon >> >> could it be, I daresay, MSU. I await the reply with bated breath. >> > >> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed >> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate >> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety >> of professional services, including board approved online continuing >> education. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 This might be a stupid questions but please tell what does 'MSU' mean? - alonmarcus Cc: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 6:39 PM Re: Re: Chinese Five Elements For me all muscle testing is MSU I now I now Alon - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:57 AM Re: Chinese Five Elements , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> do you know how thins john DC came with the muscles associated with the elements> Aloncould it be, I daresay, MSU. I await the reply with bated breath. :)ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 MSU I think Todd coined that term..........Making Stuff Up Over the years I have been exposed to lots of MSU................one of the best ones was I was taught at acupuncture school that needling of LI-11 would result in death !! Some of it stems from mistranslation ...........other from pure MSU Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 The pericardium meridian is synonymous with the circulation-sex meridian, although I'm trying to find out, anatomically, which is the more appropriate name. Sanjiao is a completely different meridian, which is also known as the Triple Heater (or is it Triple Warmer? Triple Burner?) > MSU:- are they the people that call the pericardium or san jiao the > "circulation -sex " meridian? ............pretty well confirms MSU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 Why do you say that? In this system, the muscles are tested to determine the condition of the organ-meridians. They even test each muscle group in the proper order according to the Zang Fu schedule. Then acupressure is administered to either strengthen or weaken each meridian-organ. Its built completely around the Chinese Zang Fu and Wu Xing system. So, exactly what 'information' are you reffering to that is not from within Traditional (TCM)? I assure you, its all there, otherwise it probably would have been obviated a long time ago... http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 On Friday, May 4, 2001, at 12:26 PM, Lee Lieske wrote: > Why do you say that? > > In this system, the muscles are tested to determine the condition of > the organ-meridians. > They even test each muscle group in the proper order according to the > Zang Fu schedule. > Then acupressure is administered to either strengthen or weaken each > meridian-organ. > Its built completely around the Chinese Zang Fu and Wu Xing system. > > So, exactly what 'information' are you reffering to that is not from > within Traditional (TCM)? Lee, kinesiology as it exists today did not develop from Chinese medicine. Testing muscles in this manner was never used in Chinese medicine to determine channel/visceral relationships. Twenty five to thirty years ago, I seriously doubt that the originator of Touch For Health had any access to any reliable Chinese medical texts to make his conclusions. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 Z'ev said " Lee, kinesiology as it exists today did not develop from Chinese medicine. Testing muscles in this manner was never used in Chinese medicine to determine channel/visceral relationships. Twenty five to thirty years ago, I seriously doubt that the originator of Touch For Health had any access to any reliable Chinese medical texts to make his conclusions. " Z'ev , you have a good way with words............you relayed your thoughts very politely, I would of been more abrupt like " touch for health is a system developed by a chiropractor using the MSU method and made a lot of money out of it " Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 > Lee, kinesiology as it exists today did not develop from Chinese medicine. Testing muscles in this manner was never used > in Chinese medicine to determine channel/visceral relationships. Twenty five to thirty years ago, I seriously doubt that the > originator of Touch For Health had any access to any reliable Chinese medical texts to make his conclusions. But you have to admit, that even if this system was false (in which I 'seriously doubt' it is) a system like it would be ideal for effectively testing the body's meridians for imbalance. I know several TCM practicioners who have integrated kinesiology into their armementarium, in fact it was one of these people who reffered me to the Touch for Health system. Anyhow, if it is false, somebody would have come along and proved so by now or modified it so it would be more accurate (due to the wealth of information available to everyone these days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Above all, until one can provide a diagnostic/therapeutic system with foundations derived from TCM, that is more optimal than "Touch for Health" or any of these other modalities which are rooted in TCM, such as (to name a few examples) Electroacupuncture According to Voll (EAV), and Homeopathy according to Five Element / Zang Fu theory, nothing said here really matters. Lee,The question is not whether the system is 'false'. . . whether kinesiology is accurate or not I will leave to others for now. The question is whether it belongs in a discussion of the five phase theory as transmitted from Chinese culture to modern times. To lump together the "Touch for Health" information with the other, more traditional explanations makes no sense whatsoever. If Touch for Health has not been accepted as part of Chinese medicine in China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Europe, or anywhere else that I am aware of, why should we accept your word for it that it is? That, it least is the impression I get from the information on your web site. Remember, you did ask for criticism, did you not?As far as the question of eclecticism with the TCM practitioners you conversed with, eclecticism is common in health care professions. That still doesn't make it TCM, just as an acupuncturist practicing homeopathy doesn't make it TCM. It doesn't devalue the merit of homeopathy, which I consider to be one of the supreme medicines on the planet, but it doesn't automatically make it part of Chinese medicine just because someone practices it. On Saturday, May 5, 2001, at 05:23 AM, Lee Lieske wrote: But you have to admit, that even if this system was false (in which I 'seriously doubt' it is) a system like it would be ideal for effectively testing the body's meridians for imbalance.I know several TCM practicioners who have integrated kinesiology into their armementarium, in fact it was one of these people who reffered me to the Touch for Health system Anyhow, if it is false, somebody would have come along and proved so by now or modified it so it would be more accurate (due to the wealth of information available to everyone these days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 I once heard that the Zang Fu system was created and established as "Traditional " only back in the late 70's. Is this true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Lee, The question is not whether the system is 'false'. . . whether kinesiology is accurate or not I will leave to others for now. The question is whether it belongs in a discussion of the five phase theory as transmitted from Chinese culture to modern times. To lump together the "Touch for Health" information with the other, more traditional explanations makes no sense whatsoever. If Touch for Health has not been accepted as part of Chinese medicine in China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Europe, or anywhere else that I am aware of, why should we accept your word for it that it is? That, it least is the impression I get from the information on your web site. Remember, you did ask for criticism, did you not? As far as the question of eclecticism with the TCM practitioners you conversed with, eclecticism is common in health care professions. That still doesn't make it TCM, just as an acupuncturist practicing homeopathy doesn't make it TCM. It doesn't devalue the merit of homeopathy, which I consider to be one of the supreme medicines on the planet, but it doesn't automatically make it part of Chinese medicine just because someone practices it. On Saturday, May 5, 2001, at 05:23 AM, Lee Lieske wrote: > But you have to admit, that even if this system was false (in which I 'seriously doubt' it is) a system like it would be ideal for effectively testing the body's meridians for imbalance. > I know several TCM practicioners who have integrated kinesiology into their armementarium, in fact it was one of these people who reffered me to the Touch for Health system > > Anyhow, if it is false, somebody would have come along and proved so by now or modified it so it would be more accurate (due to the wealth of information available to everyone these days). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 no... Lee Lieske [leelieske]Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Re: Chinese Five Elements I once heard that the Zang Fu system was created and established as "Traditional " only back in the late 70's. Is this true? Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2001 Report Share Posted May 6, 2001 Definitely not. While the national system of the PRC is largely based on zang-fu diagnostics, it has been a major part of Chinese medicine back at least to the Jin-Yuan dynasty era. On Saturday, May 5, 2001, at 07:35 PM, Lee Lieske wrote: > I once heard that the Zang Fu system was created and established as "Traditional " only back in the late 70's. Is this true? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2001 Report Share Posted May 6, 2001 Actually, I do know of a medicine that is more optimal that what you have mentioned here. It is called Chinese medicine, and it is greater and vaster than anything you mention below. On Saturday, May 5, 2001, at 07:33 PM, Lee Lieske wrote: > Above all, until one can provide a diagnostic/therapeutic system with > foundations derived from TCM, that is more optimal than " Touch for > Health " or any of these other modalities which are rooted in TCM, such > as (to name a few examples) Electroacupuncture According to Voll > (EAV), and Homeopathy according to Five Element / Zang Fu theory, > nothing said here really matters. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2001 Report Share Posted May 6, 2001 O nevermind... Whether you realize or not, we're both in the same place. ;-) - Sunday, May 06, 2001 12:00 AM Re: Re: Chinese Five Elements Actually, I do know of a medicine that is more optimal that what you have mentioned here. It is called Chinese medicine, and it is greater and vaster than anything you mention below. On Saturday, May 5, 2001, at 07:33 PM, Lee Lieske wrote: Above all, until one can provide a diagnostic/therapeutic system with foundations derived from TCM, that is more optimal than "Touch for Health" or any of these other modalities which are rooted in TCM, such as (to name a few examples) Electroacupuncture According to Voll (EAV), and Homeopathy according to Five Element / Zang Fu theory, nothing said here really matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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