Functionality and control mechanisms

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

You're starting to have nonstandardized thoughts. There aren't any

standardized terms in the Wiseman dictionary for hGH, pituitary,

endocrine system, etc. because it translates terms literally; so they

can't exist in TCM theory. This is one of the drawbacks of living in

highly technical culture but limited in your profession to a

classical terminology. Nor will you probably find any discussion of

the type you raise here in untranslated classical material.

 

But from the point of view of nonstandardized Asian medical systems,

your ideas are quite important and even expressible with Chinese

terminology if we don't render each term literally. Chinese medical

theory can be a rich and valuable foundation for many Western medical

ideas if translated from a literary and contextual perspective. For

example, in my system of acupuncture (admittedly Korean), we've

always talked about things the way you are trying to do here.

 

When discussing the functionality of either zang or fu, we speak of

it as a yang aspect; when discussing what is produced by zang or fu,

we speak of it as a yin aspect. For example, if a client comes to you

complaining of fatigue, there are various ways of looking at the

pulses to determine the root of the symptom. When examining the pulse

we can check to see how the pancreas is performing. In the Nan Jing,

the right middle earth position can be divided into three levels. The

dividing line between the second and lowest level pertains to

endocrine function; so we can distinguish pancreas from spleen even

though Chinese anatomy did not readily distinguish them.

 

In the Nan Jing, the rising movement of the pulse is the yang aspect

or " front " and the downward movement is yin aspect or " back. " By

distinguishing the characteristic quality of the front and back

aspects of the pulse (at the endocrine level of the earth element

only) we can check the functionality or physical capacity of the

pancreas in its response to blood sugar levels. If the patient shows

a wiry or tense movement in the first half or front, it shows a

problem of he yang aspect or ability of the pancreas to function in a

timely manner. If the back shows a choppy quality, that means that

the physical aspect of the pancreas doesn't have the capacity to

produce adequate amounts of insulin. The former is hypoglycemia, the

latter is diabetes. The degree to which each pulse " front " or " back "

deviates from a normal pulse is degree of severity of the problem.

 

We can apply this concept of " front " and " back " to all other

positions. But it's a nonstandardized way of viewing things, so it

may be met with great resistance.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

Kind the beginning of some thoughts I have been having. Apologies in

advance who don't approve of this type of speculation.

 

I've been studying the effects of growth hormone recently. And the

research that I've been doing has let me consider some relationships

between kidney tonics and this hormone. I have specifically been

looking into the role of certain amino acids which are used by people

involved in the areas as diverse as body building or life extension in

order to induce the release of growth hormone, either for the purpose

of enlarging ones muscles or for the purpose of increasing a persons

youthfulness . Large doses of amino acids are thought to induce the

release of growth hormone probably by affecting control mechanisms,

rather than providing building blocks for the hormone itself. This

has

led me to consider what it is that kidney tonics are actually doing

when

we ingest them. The reason kidney yang and essence tonics came to

mind

is because kidney tonics have been shown to have an effect of

increasing

the amount of circulating growth hormone in the body. And because

research in China and indicates that kidney yang and essence tonics

exert their activity in the body by also affecting control mechanisms.

Though many of these herbs contain hormones like substances, the

amount

that is absorbed into the body even when taken in the form of very

high

dosage decoctions is on the order of 1000 times less than the amount

of

the endogenous hormone that the body produces itself.

 

The substances (amino acids and kidney tonics) also have similar

actions

upon the body as does the administration of growth hormone itself.

These include various changes associated with youth, such as increased

strength, better muscle tone, higher metabolism, increased sex drive,

etc. Growth hormone has become very popular therapy among the rich,

especially in Europe. It is also have been ignored following here in

the United States, as well. However it is extremely expensive, as a

can

cost up to $10,000 per month. It is the shown to have rather

remarkable

fax, but it also has the risk inherent in the use of any exogenous

hormone for an extended period of time. Because of this, growth

hormone

releasing substances have become very popular in recent years. I

postulate that perhaps kidney tonics are more akin to growth hormone

releasing factors and other hormone releasing factors than they are to

some things like vitamins (this should not be confused with things

like

TSH, a hormone itself. Releasing factors are substances derived from

food or herbs. Interestingly, the mechanism I'm proposing is similar

to

the mechanism by which we understand the drug like Prozac works. In

fact, as I understand the modern Chinese research on the subject, this

is exactly how the mechanisms of these herbs is beginning to be

understood. This seemed to have various effects on the function of

the

body, such as altering receptor activity or increasing the circulation

of certain substances in the bloodstream by inhibiting their reuptake.

They may also affect feedback mechanisms.

 

So in order for these herbs to affect the hormonal system it again is

not about providing building blocks for the body but actually

affecting

the control mechanisms instead. One of the interesting thoughts that

comes up in connection with this idea is the whole way we tend to

think

of the terms of supplementing and draining as if it is purely

quantitative. In other words, some thing is either added or removed

from the body. Now this thing may be something tangible like yin or

something less tangible like yang. But in either case it is

definitely

thought of as something (by me) that is conceptualized quantitatively.

Personally , I think the use of the terms excess and deficiency

somewhat

lend themselves to this quantitative reductionism. Of course we tend

to

evaluate where going on with patients in the practice of Chinese

medicine with more qualitative analysis. So, and Let Ken correct me

if

I'm completely off base, but should these terms also be considered

qualitatively . In this case I am referring specifically to the terms

supplement and drain, vacuity and repletion . If you think of these

terms more along lines of how they affect the qi, then we move to a

Chinese version of affecting the control mechanisms. So to add yang

or

essence to the body, you begin to think of this in terms of how the

yang

alters the function of the body rather than providing raw materials,

per

se.

 

So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing

is

supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather

than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances.

I am certain I am not the first person to think of this . This is

merely the first time that I have been able to express it somewhat

succinctly. All this has thus led me to consider the issues of

longevity, aging and what it means to follow nature. To a certain

extent, merely following nature blindly leads to succumbing to our

basic

animal instincts and urges would lead us to eat till we are completely

gorged during times of abundance, to reproducing endless children and

to

generally practice activities that were designed for short-term

reproductive fitness of the species and not long-term survival of the

individual. But the very nature of civilization is such that we do

many

different things to thwart this natural process. And I would argue

that

many of these things that we do that probably have led to being such a

long lived species. By learning to discipline ourselves with regard

to

things like diet and exercise and to work on harmonizing our emotional

and mental lives. The use of the tonic herbs in Chinese medicine is a

particularly telling example, as it is my understanding that the

knowledge of many of these herbs was acquired by daoist practitioners

who were exploring the issues of longevity and even immortality.

 

One of the things these practitioners supposedly discovered in their

quest was that extreme measures could be taken to increase the

lifespans

even beyond all one acquire by the aforementioned regimen. These

extreme measures included the use of certain medicinal substances and

the practice of certain meditation techniques. It is well known that

a

variety of hormones decline as one ages. These include growth

hormone,

testosterone, Melatonin and, estrogen. This seems to be a natural

unavoidable part of the course of life. Some longevity researchers

have

actually suggested that this mechanism is programmed into us. It may

be

that kidney tonic herbs and other growth hormone releasing substances

exert their actions upon the body in a safe manner is because they

introduced a new piece of programming to the control mechanisms and

for

lack of a better analogy, the software is compatible. So the

programmed

mechanism of aging becomes thwarted by the use of these substances.

Certain meditation practices have also been shown to have been a

factor

on the levels of various hormonal control mechanisms of the body. So

when you combine these two things together, you could conceivably

have a

dramatic effect on health and longevity. It is often understood by

longevity researchers that what substances like the growth hormone

releasing factors basically do is slowing the process of aging, not

end

it an altogether. This is reflected in experiments that have shown

that

people who have done certain practices have measures of biological age

there often much younger than their chronological years.

 

--

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine

 

FAX:

[Guest guest]

, jramholz wrote:

:

>

> You're starting to have nonstandardized thoughts. There aren't any

> standardized terms in the Wiseman dictionary for hGH, pituitary,

> endocrine system, etc. because it translates terms literally; so they

> can't exist in TCM theory. This is one of the drawbacks of living in

> highly technical culture but limited in your profession to a

> classical terminology. Nor will you probably find any discussion of

> the type you raise here in untranslated classical material.

 

I always have nonstandardized thoughts, I just don't share them often.

My main interest is actually the points of intersection between TCM and

modern science. My adherence to rigorously translated classical and

modern texts is not because I am some kind of fundamentalist, but

because I truly believe the only with strong foundations in what the

chinese actually said can we even begin to take this leap. But I do

not see TCM or any form of CM moving into the future as a complete

independent body of medical thought that exists alongside modern

medicine, separate but equal. I predict an interplay that will result

in an integrative 21st century medicine that is rooted in the best of

both, but is really neither in their current forms. I have always

worked with naturopaths and MD's in my clinics who practice functional

endocrine oriented western medicne and I would never have it any other

way. I have a degree in biology and started my medical studies at the

National college of Naturopathic Medicine in Oregon. Subhuti

dharmananda was my first chinese herb teacehr and he has always had a

strong integrative orientation. I would never have been attracted to

TCM without this perspective.

 

However, I do not feel comfortable applying my untested ideas upon my

patients. So, and this should make Alon happy, I would never recommend

growth hormone releasers to my patients because I am also not satisfied

with the current research. Alon is right that many people will do

potentially unsafe things just because they are alternative. But in

the interest of longevity, I respectfully disagree with Alon that one

should only use GH releasers if one has GH too low for one's age. this

is conservative western medicine which just assumes a priori that it is

naturally ordained that everyone should just grow old and die. I am

not so sure and cutting edge aging research and many Taoists and yogis

disagree with this hypothesis. I also believe that there is no ethical

dilemma with me experimenting upon myself. I also do think we need to

reconsider when it is truly appropriate to apply kidney tonics short of

gross pathology (which might result, horror of horrors, in giving

herbal GH releasers without the support of conventional lab tests).

Douglas, I will answer your post on this subject later. However, I

believe there is much in the realm of integrative medicine that has

been tested and is standard medicine in the PRC today. In fact, as I

mentioned in an earlier post, paradigm is currently working on a

translation of a book on biomedical research correlations with TCM. I

know many out there are chagrined by this and consider it an unwelcome

aberration in modern china, but I truly believe it is the future.

flaws TCM psych book is filled with research studies and case studies

that also take an integrative approach to understanding and treating

illness. So while growth hormone may not be part of classical TCM and

is not found in Wiseman, it is certainly part of modern TCM and is

found in medical journal literature and cutting edge modern texts.

 

[Guest guest]

I respectfully disagree with Alon that one should only use GH releasers if one has GH too low for one's age.

>>>>>I was talking about GH not GH releasers. I do not think there is any problems with releasers and probably no down side.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I respectfully disagree with Alon that one

> should only use GH releasers if one has GH too low for one's age.

> >>>>>I was talking about GH not GH releasers. I do not think there is any

problems with releasers and probably no down side.

> Alon

 

Oh, I totally agree with that. I said at the outset I have

reservations about all exogenous hormones and my entire discussion has

been focused on releasers affecting control mechanisms, not direct

supplementation with GH.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Responses to Todd and James:

>

>>

>> (Jim:)

>> You're starting to have nonstandardized thoughts. There aren't any

>> standardized terms in the Wiseman dictionary for hGH, pituitary,

>> endocrine system, etc. because it translates terms literally; so they

>> can't exist in TCM theory. This is one of the drawbacks of living in

>> highly technical culture but limited in your profession to a

>> classical terminology. Nor will you probably find any discussion of

>> the type you raise here in untranslated classical material.

 

 

 

I think this is a misrepresentation of " Wiseman terminology " , Jim.

Using reasonable English terms as a translation standard doesn't mean

that one cannot address issues from a more technological medicine.

Biomedical terminology is just as arbitrary and conditioned, and

non-interpretive as " Wiseman terminology " . It is in the application of

terminology that new ideas can be entertained, without losing sight of

the meaning of what is being discussed.

 

 

I constantly think about and propose theoretical possibilities for the

endocrine system, hormones, etc. in my thoughts and discussions on

medicine. There are definite possibilities for reinterpreting

biomedical data within the broad framework of Chinese medicine. This is

something that will take much time, peer review, and, hopefully

accumulation of data.

 

But first, we need to lay the groundwork. This is to accurately teach

Chinese medicine as close as possible to the way it was intended to be

transmitted. This includes more accurate and usable translations of

Chinese material, both modern and classical. Otherwise we will be

creating hybrid theories that will not survive the test of time.

 

(Todd:)

 

But I do

not see TCM or any form of CM moving into the future as a complete

independent body of medical thought that exists alongside modern

medicine, separate but equal. I predict an interplay that will result

in an integrative 21st century medicine that is rooted in the best of

both, but is really neither in their current forms.

 

One more thought about the concept of integrative medicine. I remember

the opinion of Harris Coulter, perhaps our finest medical historian and

the author of " Divided Legacy " . When asked about integrative medicine,

he responded by asking who was going to be doing the integration?

Western medicine has the power world-wide, and will dictate integration

at any practical level. What we see in China is the tendency for WM/CM

hybrids to be dominated by biomedical testing and diagnostics at the

expense of traditional Chinese methods, which has weakened CM overall.

While I have no problem with the interface of Chinese and biomedicine,

or any other medicine for that matter, I do have problems with hybrids

that lose the integrity of either system. What you are describing,

as a future 21st century medicine is one possibility, it is

certainly not the only one. Western medicine may well be facing its own

revolution through the integration of quantum physics. Jim, you and I

have discussed the compatability of Chinese medicine and quantum

physics, and I feel here is where one possible interface will happen.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev:

 

I don't think I've misrepresented him. Wiseman himself says

that " English terms that are literal renderings of the Chinese are

usually the best choice because they enable readers familiar with

Chinese to recognize the original terms " (CAOM, p.34); and just

before that, " a terminology that reflects the East Asian concepts

rather than some interpretation of them " (CAOM, p.33). Exclusively

using a literal translation solves one set of problems but creates a

new set of problems; especially when the source texts for the

termonology were written before the 20th century. The different

varieties of Chinese medical translation strategies are laid out in

Unschuld's Approaches to Traditional Chinese Medical Literature:

Proceedings of an International Symposium on Translation

Methodologies and Terminologies. But you might prefer George

Steiner's After Babel (Oxford University Press, 1975)---especially

the chapter " The Claims of Theory " ---for a more general discussion of

translation strategies and intertextuality. When dealing with

translations of classical texts, the literal translation has certain

advantages. But when applying those terms and concepts to

contemporary medicine, being restricted to a literal translation

limits and obscures what you can say.

 

The dictionary doesn't offer us contemporary medical (Western)

terminology, it offers a consistant and standard way of translating

classical texts. It avoids translations of terms that might encourage

readers to attach any modern Western ideas to them. So, it's utility

regarding nonclassical and nonstandard material, for example, in

discussions with patients and Western medical practitioners, is

severely limited. Do you tell a client they have a " foxy mounting "

(hu shan) or a hernia? How many times have you entered terms from the

dictionary on an insurance form? Misunderstanding arises when people

think that arguing against a standardized dictionary is arguing

against the act of translating the classics altogether. It is not; we

are simply arguing about the effeciency of translation methods.

 

But, applying Chinese medical theories to Western concepts will be an

interpretive act. Like you, I believe there is a rich amount of

detail in Chinese medicine that reflects Western medicial concepts.

The Korean system of acupuncture I studied has already incorporated

many Western medical ideas in clinica practice---the example posted

earlier of distinguishing hypoglycemia from diabetes in the pulse

being one of them. There are ideas in Chinese medicine and western

science that are, at root, twin images. I will write about some of

them in more detail later.

 

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenberg@e...>

wrote:

> Responses to Todd and James:

> >

> >>

 

> I think this is a misrepresentation of " Wiseman terminology " , Jim.

Using reasonable English terms as a translation standard doesn't

mean that one cannot address issues from a more technological

medicine.

> Biomedical terminology is just as arbitrary and conditioned, and

> non-interpretive as " Wiseman terminology " . It is in the

application of terminology that new ideas can be entertained, without

losing sight of the meaning of what is being discussed.

>

>

> I constantly think about and propose theoretical possibilities for

the endocrine system, hormones, etc. in my thoughts and discussions

on medicine. There are definite possibilities for reinterpreting

> biomedical data within the broad framework of Chinese medicine.

This is something that will take much time, peer review, and,

hopefully accumulation of data.

>

> But first, we need to lay the groundwork. This is to accurately

teach Chinese medicine as close as possible to the way it was

intended to be transmitted. This includes more accurate and usable

translations of Chinese material, both modern and classical.

Otherwise we will be creating hybrid theories that will not survive

the test of time.

>

> (Todd:)

>

> But I do

> not see TCM or any form of CM moving into the future as a complete

> independent body of medical thought that exists alongside modern

> medicine, separate but equal. I predict an interplay that will

result

> in an integrative 21st century medicine that is rooted in the best

of

> both, but is really neither in their current forms.

>

> One more thought about the concept of integrative medicine. I

remember

> the opinion of Harris Coulter, perhaps our finest medical historian

and

> the author of " Divided Legacy " . When asked about integrative

medicine,

> he responded by asking who was going to be doing the integration?

> Western medicine has the power world-wide, and will dictate

integration

> at any practical level. What we see in China is the tendency for

WM/CM

> hybrids to be dominated by biomedical testing and diagnostics at

the

> expense of traditional Chinese methods, which has weakened CM

overall.

> While I have no problem with the interface of Chinese and

biomedicine,

> or any other medicine for that matter, I do have problems with

hybrids

> that lose the integrity of either system. What you are describing,

> as a future 21st century medicine is one possibility, it is

> certainly not the only one. Western medicine may well be facing

its own

> revolution through the integration of quantum physics. Jim, you

and I

> have discussed the compatability of Chinese medicine and quantum

> physics, and I feel here is where one possible interface will

happen.

>

>