Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Hi Jim and Kip, I discovered before graduating from school that "A-A-A first remove the excess" had about a 50/50 chance of producing worthwhile results. Though some it consider it bad form to say so, the fact is that some teachers were better than others. I remember that when asked about this treatment principle in clinic the Chinese teachers never responded and merely moved on to what they considered the treatment of choice. However, I heard the maxim parroted often enough that I was invested in understanding it. Soon after graduating I decided to try tonifying the deficiency eithre first or concurrently based on the idea that a meridian should be tonified before being worked with in any other way and on the fact that simultaneous tonification and dispersal arre a commonplace in herbal formulas. For me this has made a significant positive difference. Particularly in treating Wind Invasions manifesting as common colds or other URI I tonify the deficiency first and then remove the excess. I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. JOE > Exactly... I was taught ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take the whole picture into> consideration to be able to acurately make a diagnosis and then a treatment> plan. Depending on the complexity of the simultaneous patterns (transmuted> patterns, knotty diseases, etc.), treating only one aspect of a complicated> picture seems to me to be aiming at simplicity. Kip Roseman Why wouldn't you do both at once?Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. >>>>It really depends on condition. In acute abdomen for example one often needs to attack first even if the patient looks weak Alon - Joseph Balensi Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:58 AM Always remove the excess first Hi Jim and Kip, I discovered before graduating from school that "A-A-A first remove the excess" had about a 50/50 chance of producing worthwhile results. Though some it consider it bad form to say so, the fact is that some teachers were better than others. I remember that when asked about this treatment principle in clinic the Chinese teachers never responded and merely moved on to what they considered the treatment of choice. However, I heard the maxim parroted often enough that I was invested in understanding it. Soon after graduating I decided to try tonifying the deficiency eithre first or concurrently based on the idea that a meridian should be tonified before being worked with in any other way and on the fact that simultaneous tonification and dispersal arre a commonplace in herbal formulas. For me this has made a significant positive difference. Particularly in treating Wind Invasions manifesting as common colds or other URI I tonify the deficiency first and then remove the excess. I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. JOE > Exactly... I was taught ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take the whole picture into> consideration to be able to acurately make a diagnosis and then a treatment> plan. Depending on the complexity of the simultaneous patterns (transmuted> patterns, knotty diseases, etc.), treating only one aspect of a complicated> picture seems to me to be aiming at simplicity. Kip Roseman Why wouldn't you do both at once?Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 , " Joseph Balensi " <jlb@t...> wrote: Particularly in treating Wind Invasions manifesting as common colds or other URI I tonify the deficiency first and then remove the excess. I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. > > JOE > do you also supplement with herbs in wind invasion or just points. I only treat excess strongly first when symptoms are very acute. But even in those cases, I often address some aspect of the root. In chronic disease I have best longterm success treating all mutually engendering pathomechanisms simultaneously. However, I don't usually do this in wind invasion. However many " common colds " do not appear to actually be wind invasion to me, but flareups of latent heat or other internal complaints that the patient mistakes for a cold. true exterior symptoms (fever,chills,bodyaches) seems to appear less than half the time in my patients complaining of a " cold " . Perhaps colds do not overlap that neatly with wind invasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Hi Joe, I get the feeling you are referring to Japanese Meridian Theory as it is applied to acupuncture and balancing pulses. I was taught that the Japanese style generally focuses on starting with tonifying Xu and then goes on to drain Shi. But I've never heard of tonifying points distal to a region suffering from Shi just because it is distal. I also have not heard of the notion that tonifying a point only affects the region of the body that it is located in. I still think that if the Dx is correct, and a subsequent treatment principle is adhered to, many (if not most) cases require a delicate balancing act of addressing both Xu and Shi. Kip > [Original Message] > <alonmarcus > > 5/23/01 9:20:30 AM > Re: Always remove the excess first > > I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. > >>>>It really depends on condition. In acute abdomen for example one often needs to attack first even if the patient looks weak > Alon > - > Joseph Balensi > > Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:58 AM > Always remove the excess first > > > Hi Jim and Kip, > > I discovered before graduating from school that " A-A-A first remove the excess " had about a 50/50 chance of producing worthwhile results. Though some it consider it bad form to say so, the fact is that some teachers were better than others. I remember that when asked about this treatment principle in clinic the Chinese teachers never responded and merely moved on to what they considered the treatment of choice. However, I heard the maxim parroted often enough that I was invested in understanding it. > > Soon after graduating I decided to try tonifying the deficiency eithre first or concurrently based on the idea that a meridian should be tonified before being worked with in any other way and on the fact that simultaneous tonification and dispersal arre a commonplace in herbal formulas. For me this has made a significant positive difference. Particularly in treating Wind Invasions manifesting as common colds or other URI I tonify the deficiency first and then remove the excess. I always use tonification points in the lower jiao on the theory that I'm less likely to tonify a pathogen by not tonifying the region of the body it's in. > > JOE > > > Exactly... I was taught ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take the whole picture into > > consideration to be able to acurately make a diagnosis and then a treatment > > plan. Depending on the complexity of the simultaneous patterns (transmuted > > patterns, knotty diseases, etc.), treating only one aspect of a complicated > > picture seems to me to be aiming at simplicity. > Kip Roseman > > Why wouldn't you do both at once? > > Jim Ramholz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 I'd love to hear more on your ideas for treating colds/flus. It was a huge source of frustration for me that western cold/flus so rarely looked like what we studied in school. Despite that, my teacher usually pushed Yin Qiao San variations, even going so far as to advocate using it for wind-cold presentations with the rationale being that it would eventually become wind-heat. I know that you have suggested in the past only using YQS for severe w/h and toxic heat presentations. It has only been since I began using some tonification that my results became more consistently good, but even now 15-20% of my cold clients don't seem to get better before the disease should normally have run it's course. While this may be a statistically acceptable number (my physician clients tell me so . . .) I can't help but be idealistic and look to my treatment/diagnosis as being the problem. So, not that I'm advocating more work for you, since I know that you are already doing the work of several men, but if you feel up to it could you expound on your experience and thoughts of treatment of western " colds " ? Thanks, as always, for your insights. Mark Reese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 >>>I'd love to hear more on your ideas for treating colds/flus Mark, Another thought-provoking and insightful resource for the treatment of colds/flus is Chip Chace's article "Bitter Realities: Applying Wenbing Principles in Acute Respiratory Tract Infections." (Journal of , #63, June 2000) Simon Becker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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