Guest guest Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in general slippery and a little forceless. But in the right cun position, underneath this " regular pulse " was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to explain it very well except to say that it felt like a surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other pulse, and much more defined. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you for your input. Ross Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where the rest of the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, and no one really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, - ross rosen [rossrosen] Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:50 AM unrecognized pulse I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in general slippery and a little forceless. But in the right cun position, underneath this " regular pulse " was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to explain it very well except to say that it felt like a surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other pulse, and much more defined. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you for your input. Ross Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions./ Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 wrote: > > I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' > underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where the rest of > the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, and no one > really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, I wonder if you're feeling what I've felt a few times. The pulse in the upper jiao positions feels " clicky " . I'm reminded of a noise maker toy that we were given at little kiddie carnavals. We called them crickets, and sometimes they actually looked like crickets. It was just a piece of metal that, when you pressed it, it made a loud clicking noise. The way that the pulse seems to have only two positions, full and empty, with a bit of a click in between reminded me very much of the feeling of pressing on the metal to make the toy make the noise. Anybody familiar with that one? Perhaps this is what Jason is writing about? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 This sounds like one of the unusual pulse images. . ..two come to mind. One is the que zhuo mai/pecking pulse, which is like a sparrow pecking and comes irregularly, or zhuan dou mai/spinning bean pulse. I have seen these pulses with cancer patients, along with the wu lou mai/leaking roof pulse (especially with liver or bone marrow cancer). The fact that this pulse only appeared in the cun position is a good prognosis. In mestasasis, you can often feel these unusual pulses in all three positions. On Tuesday, May 29, 2001, at 07:50 AM, ross rosen wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar > pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was > treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just > had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo > chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in > general slippery and a little forceless. But in the > right cun position, underneath this "regular pulse" > was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I > was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to > explain it very well except to say that it felt like a > surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger > distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other > pulse, and much more defined. > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you > for your input. > > Ross > > > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions./ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Jason: The choppy quality you refer to is often indicative of blockages in the lymph glands around the neck and breast, if it is found in the upper levels of the Right Distal (and in the Right Middle upper levels) Position. Or it might indicate a LI problem if it corresponds to what's going on in the Left Proximal portion that shows LI from a different perspective. What it actually is depends on which depth it's found and how it connects to other positions. What signs and symptoms are present? Jim Ramholz , " " <@o...> wrote: > I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' > underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where the rest of the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, and no one really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, > > - > > > > ross rosen [rossrosen] > Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:50 AM > > unrecognized pulse > > I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar > pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was > treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just > had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo > chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in > general slippery and a little forceless. But in the > right cun position, underneath this " regular pulse " > was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I > was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to > explain it very well except to say that it felt like a > surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger > distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other > pulse, and much more defined. > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you > for your input. > > Ross > > > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions./ > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Al: Can you pick out a Li Shi-zhen description that fits it? And what signs and symptoms does the person have? Jim Ramholz , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' > > underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where the rest of > > the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, and no one > > really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, > > I wonder if you're feeling what I've felt a few times. The pulse in the > upper jiao positions feels " clicky " . I'm reminded of a noise maker toy > that we were given at little kiddie carnavals. We called them crickets, > and sometimes they actually looked like crickets. It was just a piece > of metal that, when you pressed it, it made a loud clicking noise. > > The way that the pulse seems to have only two positions, full and empty, > with a bit of a click in between reminded me very much of the feeling of > pressing on the metal to make the toy make the noise. > > Anybody familiar with that one? Perhaps this is what Jason is writing about? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Ross: From your description, it sounds like a type of knotting (jie) movement I've been describing in the PulseDiagnosis forum---it's slightly different the Li Shi-zhen description. If the irregular movement rises to the finger and seems to vibrate or be choppy ( " tiny pellets " ) at the top without a descending quality, it is indicative of tumor, blocked lymph nodes, phlegm blockage, or deep brusing. It can also be the blockage from the scarring of the lumpectomy. If it happens at each pulse movement, then it would be cancer. Jim Ramholz , ross rosen <rossrosen> wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar > pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was > treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just > had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo > chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in > general slippery and a little forceless. But in the > right cun position, underneath this " regular pulse " > was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I > was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to > explain it very well except to say that it felt like a > surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger > distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other > pulse, and much more defined. > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you > for your input. > > Ross > > > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 PulseDiagnosis forum >>>Is this an online group ? Alon - jramholz Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:40 AM Re: unrecognized pulse Ross:From your description, it sounds like a type of knotting (jie) movement I've been describing in the PulseDiagnosis forum---it's slightly different the Li Shi-zhen description.If the irregular movement rises to the finger and seems to vibrate or be choppy ("tiny pellets") at the top without a descending quality, it is indicative of tumor, blocked lymph nodes, phlegm blockage, or deep brusing. It can also be the blockage from the scarring of the lumpectomy. If it happens at each pulse movement, then it would be cancer.Jim Ramholz, ross rosen <rossrosen> wrote:> I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar> pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was> treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just> had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo> chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in> general slippery and a little forceless. But in the> right cun position, underneath this "regular pulse"> was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I> was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to> explain it very well except to say that it felt like a> surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger> distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other> pulse, and much more defined. > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you> for your input.> > Ross> > > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices> http://auctions./The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Ross, It sounds as though you are describing a complex event in the wave form. [A surge .....it was much more rapid than her other pulse] The surge is clearly an event related to the arrival of the pulse, more rapid than the other pulse also describes an event taking place in the wave (arrival and departure). The interpretation of this is most likely heat -- whether it is excess or deficient will be dependent on force and volume. The next item is more curious [of tiny pellets]. Are they felt at the same time or sequentially? If they are sequential it may be a fast version of the 'ceiling dripping' pulse. If they are at the same time, there may be insufficient Qi to hold the wave together; also, it could be a form of 'split' in the current that has been associated with near death or fear of death experiences. More information is need about this sensation to clarify some of the interpretation, there are other possibilities depending on your response. [Each hitting distinctly -- , and much more defined.] Definition begins with Qi stagnation, the body generates Heat in an attempt to overcome the Qi stagnation and this heat begins to burn Yin. This process relates to a progression from tension to hardness as felt under the fingers. Another component of this quality you are describing is that it is transient. There are two possible reasons for this. One is there are different processes taking place and the physiology can only express them sequentially, the other is insufficient Qi to maintain consistency -- I think both issues are at play in this case. Will "ross rosen" <rossrosen unrecognized pulse I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in general slippery and a little forceless. But in the right cun position, underneath this "regular pulse" was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to explain it very well except to say that it felt like a surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other pulse, and much more defined. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you for your input. Ross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Jim, Looking through the Paradigm Pubs Li Shi Zhen Pulse Diagnosis book it kind of looks closest to the " Spring " pulse, but even that, is not quite right. Its on the thin side but the upstroke gets kind of lost because its so quick to rise and so it just appears full all of a sudden, and then decays in a more normal fashion. It is this quick rise that feels kind of clicky to me. KT was an overweight 15 year old female with a chief complaint of severe epigastric pain that was both dull and sharp. Her tongue had a thick white coating, teethmarks and red spots just about everywhere, however they were more concentrated in the lateral margains. I could not find any specific emotional cause to her situation. The patient had been in therapy to find a psychogenic cause of the pain to no avail according to mom. Other signs and symptoms included chronic headaches (frontal) insomnia, due to pain amenorrhea for two years watery stools weight gain. Her diagnosis was Qi and Blood stagnation causing heat, and Spleen Qi deficiency with dampness likely a Liver/Spleen disharmony. After the first treatment using a mixture of Yue Ju Wan, Si Ni San plus Ban Xia and Hou Po her tongue coating was less, but either she had gotten hotter inside, or else the thiner tongue coating just let me see more red spots in the tongue. The pain seemed to be getting worse too. I tried a few formulas all kind of transitioning from qi and blood activiating with heat clearing to phlegh damp resolving formulas and nothing really made any more difference. Probably that pulse I was feeling was choppy, looking at her chart, but it was a unique kind of choppy. Clicky is what it felt like... jramholz wrote: > Can you pick out a Li Shi-zhen description that fits it? And what > signs and symptoms does the person have? > > Jim Ramholz > > Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > I wonder if you're feeling what I've felt a few times. The pulse > in the > > upper jiao positions feels " clicky " . I'm reminded of a noise maker > toy > > that we were given at little kiddie carnavals. We called them > crickets, > > and sometimes they actually looked like crickets. It was just a > piece > > of metal that, when you pressed it, it made a loud clicking noise. > > > > The way that the pulse seems to have only two positions, full and > empty, > > with a bit of a click in between reminded me very much of the > feeling of > > pressing on the metal to make the toy make the noise. > > > > Anybody familiar with that one? Perhaps this is what Jason is > writing about? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone@B...> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2001 Report Share Posted May 30, 2001 Yes. It's moderated by Will Morris. The main topic of the forum is the Shen/Hammer pulse diagnostic system but pulse diagnosis in general is discussed. Leon Hammer's new book from Eastland Press is going to the printer shortly. Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > PulseDiagnosis forum > >>>Is this an online group ? > Alon > - > jramholz > > Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:40 AM > Re: unrecognized pulse > > > Ross: > > From your description, it sounds like a type of knotting (jie) > movement I've been describing in the PulseDiagnosis forum---it's > slightly different the Li Shi-zhen description. > > If the irregular movement rises to the finger and seems to vibrate or > be choppy ( " tiny pellets " ) at the top without a descending quality, > it is indicative of tumor, blocked lymph nodes, phlegm blockage, or > deep brusing. It can also be the blockage from the scarring of the > lumpectomy. If it happens at each pulse movement, then it would be > cancer. > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , ross rosen <rossrosen> wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar > > pulse to the one that I felt this past week. I was > > treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, just > > had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo > > chemo and radiation next week. Her pulse was in > > general slippery and a little forceless. But in the > > right cun position, underneath this " regular pulse " > > was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I > > was palpating her pulse). I really don't know how to > > explain it very well except to say that it felt like a > > surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger > > distinctly -- it was much more rapid than her other > > pulse, and much more defined. > > > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you > > for your input. > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > > http://auctions./ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 I have also felt an odd sensation that feels like a " click " or a squeek in the right CUN position. One was recently with a 47yo female who is about to lose her husband to cancer, and another one was a 52yo female with psycho-emotional complaints. The only way I could describe these to my clinic supervisors was " slightly choppy " . One supervisor (Chinese) verified it as choppy, the other (American) said he didn't feel it. Kip > [Original Message] > <jramholz > > 5/30/01 8:10:41 AM > Re: unrecognized pulse > > Al: > > Can you pick out a Li Shi-zhen description that fits it? And what > signs and symptoms does the person have? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' > > > underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where > the rest of > > > the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, > and no one > > > really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, > > > > I wonder if you're feeling what I've felt a few times. The pulse > in the > > upper jiao positions feels " clicky " . I'm reminded of a noise maker > toy > > that we were given at little kiddie carnavals. We called them > crickets, > > and sometimes they actually looked like crickets. It was just a > piece > > of metal that, when you pressed it, it made a loud clicking noise. > > > > The way that the pulse seems to have only two positions, full and > empty, > > with a bit of a click in between reminded me very much of the > feeling of > > pressing on the metal to make the toy make the noise. > > > > Anybody familiar with that one? Perhaps this is what Jason is > writing about? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone@B...> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Ross, It sounds as though you are describing a complex event in the wave form. [A surge .....it was much more rapid than her other pulse] The surge is clearly an event related to the arrival of the pulse, more rapid than the other pulse also describes an event taking place in the wave (arrival and departure). The interpretation of this is most likely heat -- whether it is excess or deficient will be dependent on force and volume. The next item is more curious [of tiny pellets]. Are they felt at the same time or sequentially? If they are sequential it may be a fast version of the 'ceiling dripping' pulse. If they are at the same time, there may be insufficient Qi to hold the wave together; also, it could be a form of 'split' in the current that has been associated with near death or fear of death experiences. More information is need about this sensation to clarify some of the interpretation, there are other possibilities depending on your response. [Each hitting distinctly -- , and much more defined.] Definition begins with Qi stagnation, the body generates Heat in an attempt to overcome the Qi stagnation and this heat begins to burn Yin. This process relates to a progression from tension to hardness as felt under the fingers. Another component of this quality you are describing is that it is transient. There are two possible reasons for this. One is there are different processes taking place and the physiology can only express them sequentially, the other is insufficient Qi to maintain consistency -- I think both issues are at play in this case. Will > "ross rosen" <rossrosen > unrecognized pulse > > I was wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar pulse to the one that I > felt this past week. I was treating a breast cancer patient, 31 years old, > just had 2 lumpectomies last week and is about to undergo chemo and > radiation next week. Her pulse was in general slippery and a little > forceless. But in the right cun position, underneath this "regular pulse" > was an irregularity (only happened twice in the time I was palpating her > pulse). I really don't know how to explain it very well except to say > that > it felt like a surge of tiny pellets each hitting my finger distinctly -- > it > was much more rapid than her other pulse, and much more defined. > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank you for your input. > > Ross > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Kip and Al: The 'click' is reflecting an increased rate of arrival. The arrival is Yang and the departure is Yin for purposes of analysis [Wang]. If the click happens constantly, the Yang is hyperactive and there is likely deficiency of Yin due to the effect of chronic heat on the Yin -- this must also be evaluated vis-a-vie the other three pillars. If it is with force, it is likely excess heat. If the click happens irregularly, the degree of pathology is less than if it is constant, or, it may be considered 'rough' or 'uneven'. Kip and Al, you are giving this a distinct description that doesn't necessarily fit with 'choppy' . A while ago I conducted a casual experiment with members of the list asking people on the list to name the description of a choppy pulse. This was followed by citations of roughly ten authors contemporary and historical. What is perplexing me is the almost ubiquitous inconsistency in the literature. The profession is in a quandary regarding the use of this term. I believe people should identify what features of the 'choppy' pulse are being used to make such a designation because they have differing etiological and pathological meaning. Will I have also felt an odd sensation that feels like a "click" or a squeek in the right CUN position. One was recently with a 47yo female who is about to lose her husband to cancer, and another one was a 52yo female with psycho-emotional complaints. The only way I could describe these to my clinic supervisors was "slightly choppy". One supervisor (Chinese) verified it as choppy, the other (American) said he didn't feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Yes .. same here.. rt, cun, clicky, choppy, whatever... below the normal level... And as far as I could determine a probable cause in all the cases I felt was also emotional... and hopefully not cancer as Jim suggests... -JAson Joseph Roseman [kipr0823] Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:00 PM RE: Re: unrecognized pulse I have also felt an odd sensation that feels like a " click " or a squeek in the right CUN position. One was recently with a 47yo female who is about to lose her husband to cancer, and another one was a 52yo female with psycho-emotional complaints. The only way I could describe these to my clinic supervisors was " slightly choppy " . One supervisor (Chinese) verified it as choppy, the other (American) said he didn't feel it. Kip > [Original Message] > <jramholz > > 5/30/01 8:10:41 AM > Re: unrecognized pulse > > Al: > > Can you pick out a Li Shi-zhen description that fits it? And what > signs and symptoms does the person have? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I have no idea... But I have often felt this sort of 'choppiness?' > > > underneath the right cun position... It feels rough to me, where > the rest of > > > the pulse might feel slippery... I have mentioned it to people, > and no one > > > really says much...?? Mystery to me though.,,, > > > > I wonder if you're feeling what I've felt a few times. The pulse > in the > > upper jiao positions feels " clicky " . I'm reminded of a noise maker > toy > > that we were given at little kiddie carnavals. We called them > crickets, > > and sometimes they actually looked like crickets. It was just a > piece > > of metal that, when you pressed it, it made a loud clicking noise. > > > > The way that the pulse seems to have only two positions, full and > empty, > > with a bit of a click in between reminded me very much of the > feeling of > > pressing on the metal to make the toy make the noise. > > > > Anybody familiar with that one? Perhaps this is what Jason is > writing about? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone@B...> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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