Pulses vs Tongue readings

[Guest guest]

Much more than pulse... (in my opinion)...

 

-Jason

 

 

zooky [z00ky]

Monday, June 11, 2001 7:42 AM

TCM

Pulses vs Tongue readings

 

I know that any Dx's found via tongue readings must be cross-verified via

pulse

readings. Yet, because I have zero sensation in my fingers, it's not

possible

for me to do pulse readings. Thus, I must rely solely on tongue readings.

How

accurate are tongue readings?

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Tongues vs. pulses are like reading snapshots vs. moving pictures (films). Pulses read movement in the vessels, and are hard to capture, but give the physician a realtime view on states of change in the patient, whereas the tongue gives a here-now view of the humoral state of the body, a view inside the interior. It is difficult to diagnose channels from the tongue, but one can read the viscera/bowels.

 

 

On Monday, June 11, 2001, at 08:48 AM, wrote:

 

 

> Much more than pulse... (in my opinion)...

>

> -Jason

>

>

> zooky [z00ky ]

> Monday, June 11, 2001 7:42 AM

> TCM

> Pulses vs Tongue readings

>

> I know that any Dx's found via tongue readings must be cross-verified via

> pulse

> readings.  Yet, because I have zero sensation in my fingers, it's not

> possible

> for me to do pulse readings.  Thus, I must rely solely on tongue readings.

> How

> accurate are tongue readings?

>

>

>

> Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

> a year!  http://personal.mail./

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

> including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

zooky wrote:

>

> I know that any Dx's found via tongue readings must be cross-verified via

pulse

> readings. Yet, because I have zero sensation in my fingers, it's not possible

> for me to do pulse readings. Thus, I must rely solely on tongue readings.

How

> accurate are tongue readings?

 

I rely on tongue diagnosis much more than pulse. I use pulse diagnosis

to break a tie from time to time. But usually, the tongue tells me

everything. In time, I'm sure I'll get better at pulse, but tongues are

easier for me at this point.

 

Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

the tongue verifies things.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

If you go look in the mirror and stick your tongue out (making it erect), you'll notice that it twitches somewhat involuntarily, as if it had a mind of it's own. Does tongue diagnosis have anything to do with observing these twitches, as well as color, coating, etc.?

 

Tongues vs. pulses are like reading snapshots vs. moving pictures (films). Pulses read movement in the vessels, and are hard to capture, but give the physician a realtime view on states of change in the patient, whereas the tongue gives a here-now view of the humoral state of the body, a view inside the interior. It is difficult to diagnose channels from the tongue, but one can read the viscera/bowels. On Monday, June 11, 2001, at 08:48 AM, wrote:

Much more than pulse... (in my opinion)...-Jasonzooky [z00ky]Monday, June 11, 2001 7:42 AMTCM Pulses vs Tongue readingsI know that any Dx's found via tongue readings must be cross-verified viapulsereadings. Yet, because I have zero sensation in my fingers, it's notpossiblefor me to do pulse readings. Thus, I must rely solely on tongue readings.Howaccurate are tongue readings?Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35a year! http://personal.mail./The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

 

>

> Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

> the tongue verifies things.

 

 

I agree with Al, here, 100%.

 

[Guest guest]

Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of> the tongue verifies things.I agree with Al, here, 100%.>>>>>I disagree I think signs are more important than symptoms

Alom

 

-

 

Monday, June 11, 2001 2:55 PM

Re: Pulses vs Tongue readings

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:> > Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of> the tongue verifies things.I agree with Al, here, 100%.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

--- Al Stone <alstone wrote:

 

> Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

> the tongue verifies things.

 

Ah, yes - how very true. I know I gather info during verbal and then use

tongue to verify my suspicions. So, it would appear that I'm on the right

track.

 

otoh - I'm also pondering Zev's excellent comments. If nothing else they

(snapshot vs realtime movie) serve as a reminder to me that I need to keep such

things in mind before making any final decision.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I think tongue and pulse info are absolutely crucial. Perhaps as

westerners, many of us haven't spent enough time taking and analyzing

pulses. Not to mention that most of us have not had the benefit of working

one-on-one with a very experienced Chinese Medical practioner during our

own development as practitioners.

It does say something when you go to the old practitioners who don't speak

your language, and they take a quick look at your tongue, spend 10 minutes

meditating on your pulse, and then write you an elegant and accurate

formula. Growing up as a kid in Asia I experienced this a number of times.

A friend of mine who studied with the Ayurvedic teacher Vasant Lad said

that he told her something to the affect that pulse reading is a sacred

time because the patient's entire being (past, present, and future) is

available if you know how to listen properly.

Kip Roseman

 

 

> [Original Message]

> <alonmarcus

>

> 6/11/01 3:44:04 PM

> Re: Re: Pulses vs Tongue readings

>

> Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

> > the tongue verifies things.

>

>

> I agree with Al, here, 100%.

>

> >>>>>I disagree I think signs are more important than symptoms

> Alom

> -

>

>

> Monday, June 11, 2001 2:55 PM

> Re: Pulses vs Tongue readings

>

>

> , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance

of

> > the tongue verifies things.

>

>

> I agree with Al, here, 100%.

>

> Todd

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ditto for my feelings.

We don't need to cripple ourselves diagnostically by eliminating any diagnostic method such as questioning, tongue, or biomedical testing when necessary, but I have some experience myself with gathering clinical information solely from the pulse.

For the record, I saw a Tibetan physician diagnose a group of twenty patients solely by pulse, and he was able to determine which ones had cancer, which ones were HIV+, without any English skills or information about the patient (this was at UCSD Medical School a few years ago). I've also had the experience of seeing Dr. Yeshe Dhonden feel my own pulses and give me a complete diagnosis. It is not only possible, it should be one of our goals as diagnosticians to develop such a level of skill.

 

 

On Monday, June 11, 2001, at 04:11 PM, Joseph Roseman wrote:

 

 

>       I think tongue and pulse info are absolutely crucial. Perhaps as

> westerners, many of us haven't spent enough time taking and analyzing

> pulses. Not to mention that most of us have not had the benefit of working

> one-on-one with a very experienced Chinese Medical practioner during our

> own development as practitioners.

>       It does say something when you go to the old practitioners who don't speak

> your language, and they take a quick look at your tongue, spend 10 minutes

> meditating on your pulse, and then write you an elegant and accurate

> formula. Growing up as a kid in Asia I experienced this a number of times.

>       A friend of mine who studied with the Ayurvedic teacher Vasant Lad said

> that he told her something to the affect that pulse reading is a sacred

> time because the patient's entire being (past, present, and future) is

> available if you know how to listen properly.

>                               Kip Roseman

>

>

> > [Original Message]

> > <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net>

> >

> > 6/11/01 3:44:04 PM

> > Re: Re: Pulses vs Tongue readings

> >

>

> > Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

> > > the tongue verifies things.

> >

>

> >

>

> > I agree with Al, here, 100%.

> >

>

> > >>>>>I disagree I think signs are more important than symptoms

> > Alom

> >   -

> >   (AT) inetarena (DOT) com

> >  

> >   Monday, June 11, 2001 2:55 PM

> >   Re: Pulses vs Tongue readings

> >

>

> >

>

> >   , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> >

>

> >   >

> >   > Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance

> of

> >   > the tongue verifies things.

> >

>

> >

>

> >   I agree with Al, here, 100%.

> >

>

> >   Todd

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >        

[Guest guest]

My diagnosis is look at the eyes, second is tongue, Third is pulses, four is

points, fifth is verbal. So I have to do 5 different diagnosis to go conclusion

 

 

wrote:

 

> , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Actually, most of the diagnostic info is verbal, then the appearance of

> > the tongue verifies things.

>

> I agree with Al, here, 100%.

>

 

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

>

> I agree with Al, here, 100%.

>

> >>>>>I disagree I think signs are more important than symptoms

> Alom

>

 

what signs are you referring to? you seemed to imply earlier that

pulse is not very reliable. Isn't that why you wondered at people's

reluctance to take you up on your pulse study?

 

[Guest guest]

Please say more about how you do it.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, Nhung Ta <nhung.ta@m...> wrote:

> I have different way to distinguish the symtom of Hepatitis symtom,

and cancer I can tell it's going to have cancer or not, Most of the

time I see it before it's happen or it's already happened

> Nhung Ta

>

[Guest guest]

I have different way to distinguish the symtom of Hepatitis symtom, and

cancer I can tell it's going to have cancer or not, Most of the time I

see it before it's happen or it's already happened

Nhung Ta

wrote:

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. Yeshe Dhonden feel my own pulses and give me a complete diagnosis

>>>That is interesting I have had about 6 patient see him and he was unable to do this on any of them, including myself

Alon

[Guest guest]

(this was at UCSD Medical School a few years ago).

>>>Was this published. I know with his breast cancer study at UCSF he did pick up some infections by smelling urine and taking pulses but I am not aware of any other pickups

Alon

[Guest guest]

what signs are you referring to? you seemed to imply earlier that pulse is not very reliable. Isn't that why you wondered at people's reluctance to take you up on your pulse study?>>>As far as OM I look at eyes, tongue, abdomen and soft tissue and pulses. To me the pulses are the least reliable because they are influenced by so many variables. (that is why I realy would like to see the best people studied. I would like to change my mind)

I usually trust my hands and observations more than symptoms. The signs help me determine the central issue that then results in system adaptations i.e. symptoms. This also allows me to minimize the herbal formula and often I can avoid too many therapeutic principles within one formula.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Again, more detail, please.

 

Was the problem in his particular clinical system (i.e. Tibetan values of wind, bile, phlegm) in interpreting his readings?

 

 

On Tuesday, June 12, 2001, at 10:02 AM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

> Dr. Yeshe Dhonden feel my own pulses and give me a complete diagnosis

> >>>That is interesting I have had about 6 patient see him and he was unable to do this on any of them, including myself

> Alon

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

As I said I can distinguish the Hep ABC, for example : one of the client come

to my store : I look at her, she seem not too well I said to her: can I see your

tongue? She open her mouth and show her tongue, I said: Oh my God! you 've got

Hepatitis C

She said Probably, because my mom died because of HepatitisC. In the morning

today one of my neighbor said that she has feeling tired all the time, I took

her pulses and look at her tongue, I said I do not know why you are tired all

the time but the diagnosis show me that you

have sertious symtom of the liver. She said I'm not supprise because the liver

problem run in my family and many more, about the cancer: when I treat one man I

told him that he has the signal of instestine cancer show up . His wife said

that his dad died from instestine cancer

and much more. Alll those people I did not know their family history. I told

them before they told me their family history. Another one ,after I gave to her

a treatment : I found out she has Epilepsy . I told her mom, her mom do not

belived me , I said, OK, does she scream at you

many time for no reasonn, does she pull her head and want to take the head off

sometime for no reason? - Yes she did,but how you know she has that bad

behavior?_ No, she's not bad person, that because the epilepsy bother her and

try to spasm, but that is minor epilepsy. To tell

how to see it, I have to write a book or I have to train, and I will some day,

righ now, I'm not ready yet, but I need some suport of encourage me to do so.

Nhung ta

 

jramholz wrote:

 

> Please say more about how you do it.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

> , Nhung Ta <nhung.ta@m...> wrote:

> > I have different way to distinguish the symtom of Hepatitis symtom,

> and cancer I can tell it's going to have cancer or not, Most of the

> time I see it before it's happen or it's already happened

> > Nhung Ta

> >

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Was the problem in his particular clinical system (i.e. Tibetan values of wind, bile, phlegm) in interpreting his readings?>>>I can not comment on these as I do not understand them. He did not say anything to the patients about seriousness of illness or any other understandable information. One developed a cancer within 6 months of seeing him

Alon

[Guest guest]

My thoughts about this discussion are predicated on these two definitions.

 

1) We have a phenomenon " down to a science " when we understand it to the

degree that another person can use our understanding to interact with the

phenomenon and reliably obtain the same outcome as we did. (e.g. " Here, use

this formula to calculate trajectory. " )

 

2) We have a phenomenon " down to an art " when our understanding of it,

and/or the transfer of that understanding, isn't sufficient to enable

another person to reliably obtain the same outcome as we did. (e.g. " No,

don't pound the piano keys, caress them. Passion isn't always raw, it's

just as often refined. " )

 

I consider art and science to possess the Yin-Yang trait of there being a

bit of each within the other and this reminds me of the phrase " the art and

science of... "

 

So, I think that tongue diagnosis is more of a science than pulse diagnosis.

I base this on the facts that the effectiveness of pulse diagnosis is more

dependent on the skill of the operator than tongue diagnosis and that it's

much more difficult to convey to a student. This doesn't, however, detract

in any measure from the depth, accuracy, quality and quantity of information

which is available to those with the skill to grasp it.

 

Also, because pulse diagnosis is at present an art, it is by definition too

indistinct to be measured with any consistency. This no reason not to try,

but it is a great reason not to etch conclusions from such research in

stone.

 

One step in the direction of the " science of pulse diagnosis " might be the

standardization of the method of taking it. Shudo Denmei gives a very clear

useful lesson on how to do so in Japanese Classical Acupuncture. It seems

consonant with everything else I've been taught or have read but it's

exceedingly clear presentation might make it a good point of departure.

Being that it's based on the classics and teachings from doctors who were

careful to identify where they broke with tradition it's not a set of

arbitrary decisions by a single person. It's part and parcel of the roots

of OM and therefore is a good candidate for the " gold standard " of pulse

taking.

 

JOE

[Guest guest]

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

> For the record, I saw a Tibetan physician diagnose a group of twenty

> patients solely by pulse, and he was able to determine which ones had

> cancer, which ones were HIV+, without any English skills or information

> about the patient (this was at UCSD Medical School a few years ago).

> I've also had the experience of seeing Dr. Yeshe Dhonden feel my own

> pulses and give me a complete diagnosis. It is not only possible, it

> should be one of our goals as diagnosticians to develop such a level of

> skill.

 

I wonder if this could be accomplished in a truly controlled blind

setting. It is curious that the use of traditional pulse taking, which

is supposed to reveal patterns of disharmony such as wind, bile and

phlegm was used to identify discete diseases like cancer and HIV. I

wasn't aware that pulse was used for bian bing, but rather for bian

zheng. this makes me suspicious and seems especially strange coming

from you, Z'ev, given your oft-stated distrust for such a mix and match

eastern/western approach.

 

But let's assume this is what actually happened. All it means is that

some monk who has been meditating and training in medicine since he was

six years old is capable of doing some apparently amazing things late

in his life. with all his years of experience, I suspect there were

many cues besides the pulse that tipped him off, including the

impressions he received from the other doctors who were no doubt

familiar with the diagnoses themselves. While I totally agree that

symptoms alone will lead one to an erroneous diagnosis, it seems to me

that I have seen far more errors made by those who arrogantly attempt

to rely on signs alone (which I know you do not, Z'ev). A diagnosis

must be justified by signs AND symptoms. I cannot count the times I

have encountered patients with diagnoses from chinatown herbalists who

only used pulse and tongue and turned out to have NO correlating

symptoms. Perhaps these herbalists were just charlatans and I have yet

to meet the true thing, but it certainly leads me to believe that what

we expect may not be possible to accomplish given our training and

amount we practice (starting late and often seeing only moderate

patient loads). There is no harm in striving for this goal, but be

wary. Use lab tests to make western diagnoses and always make sure

that your patients actually have the patterns you think are present in

their pulse. If a patient has weak kidney pulses, but all symptoms

point to dampheat in the large intestine, what are you going to do?

Give yin tonics to someone with foul-smelling explosive diarrhea? If

anyone has this level of skill,bravo. But if so, there is no harm in

justifying your diagnoses with all available tools (labs, questioning).

To do otherwise would be careless.

 

[Guest guest]

.. with all his years of experience, I suspect there were many cues besides the pulse that tipped him off, including the impressions he received from the other doctors who were no doubt familiar with the diagnoses themselves.

>>>>>Probably true

 

If a patient has weak kidney pulses, but all symptoms point to dampheat in the large intestine, what are you going to do? Give yin tonics to someone with foul-smelling explosive diarrhea? If anyone has this level of skill,bravo. But if so, there is no harm in justifying your diagnoses with all available tools (labs, questioning). To do otherwise would be careless.

>>>>Everything has to be taken into account. But it is the signs that put the symptoms in perspective as for example explosive diarrhea can be do to many causes

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

In the Li Shih-zhen system of pulses, the chi/foot pulse includes the contents of the lower burner, including the intestines, not just the kidney. There are different maps one can use with the pulse. It is entirely possible to diagnose damp heat in the lower burner from the pulse.

 

And, of course, one should use other methods such as tongue, appearance, questioning and tests to confirm one's results. I haven't seen that one would use a pulse diagnosis to choose treatment that was contrary to other signs and symptoms.

 

What I observed was that the physician was able to determine the parameters of the disease through the pulse, and then fill in the details afterwards

 

( I'll respond to your post later. . . .too much going on right now).

 

 

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 09:29 AM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

> .  with all his years of experience, I suspect there were

> many cues besides the pulse that tipped him off, including the

> impressions he received from the other doctors who were no doubt

> familiar with the diagnoses themselves. 

> >>>>>Probably true

>  

> If a patient has weak kidney pulses, but all symptoms

> point to dampheat in the large intestine, what are you going to do? 

> Give yin tonics to someone with foul-smelling explosive diarrhea?  If

> anyone has this level of skill,bravo.  But if so, there is no harm in

> justifying your diagnoses with all available tools (labs, questioning). 

> To do otherwise would be careless.

> >>>>Everything has to be taken into account. But it is the signs that put the symptoms in perspective as for example explosive diarrhea  can be do to many causes

> Alon

>  

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have a Parkinson's patient with a slippery, tense, and full neuropsych position (just distal to the cun position in a notch in the thenar eminence -- this fits perfectly in a holographic model of the body) -- interesting. The interpretation of this is stagnation, phlegm, and heat affecting the brain as a curious organ. Might I arrive at a similar diagnosis through other methods? Possibly.

 

These pulse findings are not to be used alone, they are used in the context of four pillars as always. However, I cannot count of the number of times pulse findings have lead me to inquiry which uncovers essential case management material. This is an unparalleled study in my 20 years of experience. And, pulse findings have given me cause to refer out for a standard-care workup saving my butt from potentially litigious situations on more than one occasion.

 

Rory, I guess I qualify as a pulse zealot.... Why? Because it works. Leon Hammer often said "this work isn't for everyone". The tongue is simpler, easier, and.....it's not so damn fickle.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

I'm not a bible thumper but.......

 

Just a reminder, the Spiritual Axis states:

 

"Those who see color and recognize the illness are called enlightened. Those who press the vessels and recognize illness are called spirits. Those who ask about illness and then know the locations are called artisans."

 

This passage clearly places pulse diagnosis above the questions, and visual diagnosis above the pulse. Dr. Shen was a master face reader, his pulse diagnosis unparalleled, and his questioning was revelatory. A man his likes may never pass this way again. Rest in peace dear Dr. Shen.

 

Will