Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Alon: The idea of a study about pulses sounds very interesting. But I think there's too much variability in the methods by which people examine the pulses and their personal sensitivity in sensing the pulses to make it a reliable test or tell us something interesting unless that those features of the group are taken into account first. Especially if you're trying to match the reliability of pulse diagnosis to Western diagnosis. I just finished teaching the second section of my Advanced Pulse Diagnosis seminar, and was surprised at the variablity of practitioners' sensitivity. They often could follow along or feel something in the pulse only when I showed them. This was more the case when we examined 5-depths for localized lesions or problems (for example, scar tissue from lung surgery or the softness of the cervix in a woman past due to give birth)---a perspective from which we can more readily speak in both Eastern and Western terms. There's a pool of practitioners who do the Shen/Hammer system that might be large enough to draw on and have a consistant and reliable result. Will Morris would have better insight into how many in that system could participate and offer a consistant level of diagnositic ability to match against Western diagnosis. But those concerns aside, a study would be interesting. I would personally be more interested to see how pulse diagnosis can track the localized lesions you speak of in your work. Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > How soon can you send me an airline ticket > >>>>Unless I get funding from Kaiser, which I do not I will, this will have to be on a volunteer bases. But don't you think we need to do such a study. > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 jramholz wrote: > > Alon: > > The idea of a study about pulses sounds very interesting. But I think > there's too much variability in the methods by which people examine > the pulses and their personal sensitivity in sensing the pulses to > make it a reliable test or tell us something interesting unless that > those features of the group are taken into account first. Especially > if you're trying to match the reliability of pulse diagnosis to > Western diagnosis. There are a few of us in Santa Monica wrestling with these exact issues. Terry Oleson is the key researcher. It is my feeling that our attempts to agree on the 28 some-odd pulse qualities is a waste of time, at least in regards to the interatability research. What I am pushing for in the study that we're working on is that we should simplify the pulse information and rate that. All of the simple characteristics end up being melted into the 28 qualities anyway. So, the research looks like this: Pulse width. from thin to thick. Pulse speed: from slow to fast (or 40 bpm to 120 bpm) Pulse depth: from superficial to deep Pulse strength: from weak to strong Pulse rhythm: from arrythmic to regular rhythm Pulse length: from short to long Then, we're adding a few opportunities to describe the wave form, which will probably for our purposes be limited to wiry, slippery and hesitant/choppy. I think that trying to get two people to agree on thin versus thready versus deficient versus hidden versus scattered is not a viable method to prove interatability. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Hakim: I'm not aware of any literature on 5-depths other than the brief description in the Nan Jing. Other than my teacher, I had never heard anyone discuss its use in clinical practice (although some others may apply it in some other way). I cover the topic in my seminar series and will included it in a future article. Did you learn how to use from it from your Malaysian teacher? I would be interested to hear your experience. Jim Ramholz , " Hakim.Mohammad Kassem Karim " <mkkarim@n...> wrote: > Is there any published material on this part of pulse diagnosis? one of my teachers in Malaysia used to use this method but I have not seen any litrature on the subject. > > > This was more the > case when we examined 5-depths for localized lesions or problems (for > example, scar tissue from lung surgery or the softness of the cervix > in a woman past due to give birth)---a perspective from which we can > more readily speak in both Eastern and Western terms. > > > > Jim Ramholz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Alon..... I have been incommunicado (sp?) teaching pulse and herbs in Hawaii. This sounds like an interesting project. I'll be at CSOMA in August and maybe we could take a day or two to do some of this. Rory is there, maybe he would be willing as well. The inter-rater reliability study that Terry Oleson is doing will be valuable, however, it is taking into account the whole process of diagnosis. That study will require 'callibration' of the participants with each other. Also, it is being done with students which will mandate the evaluation of rudimentary skills. What you propose requires no callibration. Will In a message dated 6/11/01 10:58:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: << I just would like us to get together and do something on the subject. So far only MD run studies have been done, for the most part. We need to design and do studies on our own. I can provide a good patient pool with complete medical history. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Jim......I have been using 5 depths as cited in Chapter 5 of Nan Jing since '93. It is useful for many purposes including needling technique. I especially like how your lineage has developed the concept. More people should take a creative apporach to interperetation of classical passages. Will In a message dated 6/11/01 6:03:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, jramholz writes: << I'm not aware of any literature on 5-depths other than the brief description in the Nan Jing. Other than my teacher, I had never heard anyone discuss its use in clinical practice (although some others may apply it in some other way). I cover the topic in my seminar series and will included it in a future article. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 I'll be at CSOMA in August and maybe we could take a day or two to do some of this. >>>I will not be there What you propose requires no calibration >>>In Leons stile I believe the calibration is of the depth. By using the most experienced practioners one of the issue is can they maintain calibration and is it really a constant Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Will: I remembered you saying so earlier, after I sent the message; I should have included you. After reviewing the new Hammer book, I realize now that what I thought were ideas in common are often seen very differently. For example, while there is less confusion in discussing pulse qualities (once the definitions are actually clarified), how the Dong Han system defines space and where qualities are found is very different. Some of the obvious ones are where we find GB and Sp, and how we read the information that you find in the extra locations. It would be interesting to get together and compare notes on a common patient. Jim Ramholz , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Jim......I have been using 5 depths as cited in Chapter 5 of Nan Jing since > '93. It is useful for many purposes including needling technique. I > especially like how your lineage has developed the concept. More people > should take a creative apporach to interperetation of classical passages. > > Will > > In a message dated 6/11/01 6:03:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, > jramholz writes: > > << I'm not aware of any literature on 5-depths other than the brief > description in the Nan Jing. Other than my teacher, I had never heard > anyone discuss its use in clinical practice (although some others may > apply it in some other way). I cover the topic in my seminar series > and will included it in a future article. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 It would be interesting to get together and compare notes on a common patient.>>>That is one of the things I want to look at with a study Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Jim Ramholz He did not teach me as he spoke a dialect called hock chiu and only broken malay. He and many others seemed to be able to just sit there in a crouded chinese herb shop looking at tongues and taking pulses then just writing the prescriptions as others have described. I have also come across this in India and Pakistan. My own experiance is that Chinese and Indian patients tend to expect you to diagnose only from pulse and tongue. Some of them got quite shirty with me when I asked " too " many questions. My present teacher (in Pakistan) uses a system of pulses that I am struggeling with at the moment but he said to me that practisicing in the west gives the practitioner a possibility to learn alot about pulse if you want, becouse the patient is forthcoming about what is ailing them and which part anatomically. He told me that many Indian/Pakistani patients (particulaly women on their sexual and obstetric history *cultural problems*) are not truthfull and therefore pulse for him is indispensable. As to the traditional pulse types I think that we all need a mentor in the begining and then keen interest to keep one going. Has any body come across the book " pulse and impulses " ? Any comments. Hakim. Mohammad Kassem Karim. Hakim: I'm not aware of any literature on 5-depths other than the brief description in the Nan Jing. Other than my teacher, I had never heard anyone discuss its use in clinical practice (although some others may apply it in some other way). I cover the topic in my seminar series and will included it in a future article. Did you learn how to use from it from your Malaysian teacher? I would be interested to hear your experience. Jim Ramholz , " Hakim.Mohammad Kassem Karim " <mkkarim@n...> wrote: > Is there any published material on this part of pulse diagnosis? one of my teachers in Malaysia used to use this method but I have not seen any litrature on the subject. > > > This was more the > case when we examined 5-depths for localized lesions or problems (for > example, scar tissue from lung surgery or the softness of the cervix > in a woman past due to give birth)---a perspective from which we can > more readily speak in both Eastern and Western terms. > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.