Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Part of this problem seems to go back to the Chinese themselves. Few, if any of them, seem to have studied pulse in depth in China and teach it in an organized and detailed manner here. I can't think of any TCM styles offhand other than the Shen/Hammer system that is well organized, detailed, and accessible in its training. Perhaps others would be aware of others. Hopefully Leon Hammer's new book on pulse diagnosis will help bring a new respectablity to pulse diagnosis that Z'ev envisions. Hammer's work will be the most extensive treatment of pulses (about 800 pages) and even correct some misconceptions that have continued from the Chinese literature into our own. Even though I don't use his system, I don't think there will be any problem conforming to his descriptions of pulse qualities. Jim Ramholz , <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > My experience as a teacher, both at an acupuncture college and at > seminars, and as a past clinical supervisor is the same as Rory's. I > agree with everything that is said below. We are way below par as a > profession on pulse skills and reliability. This is perhaps our major > weakness as practitioners. It is not helped by teachers with sub- par > pulse skills telling students that pulse diagnosis is not important or > subjective. Post-graduate experience with senior practitioners is > essential, to gain constant practice and confirmation. > > We need to ideally aim for the level of expertise of the Tibetan > physicians who were tested in American hospitals by diagnosing seriously > ill patients by pulse alone. This kind of acid test would be failed by > most of us, but its possibility raises the ante on what traditional > diagnostic techniques can accomplish. > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2001, at 08:38 AM, Rory Kerr wrote: > > > At 4:54 AM -0400 6/12/01, yulong@m... wrote: > > >It would also be interesting to conduct > > >identical studies among different groups > > >of practitioners, perhaps in different > > >geographical areas to address the question > > >of whether or not different approaches > > >to education and practice result in > > >different degrees of consensus and > > >reliability among practitioners. > > -- > > > > To do a study of inter-rater reliability amongst practitioners seems > > beside the point. I think it would be better to do such a study of > > clinic supervisors in the schools. That would focus attention on the > > source of the problem. > > > > I've been teaching CE workshops pulse diagnosis for several years, in > > San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, New York, Colorado, New Mexico, > > Holland and Israel. I can affirm, based on this experience, that > > inter-rater reliability in pulse diagnosis is consistent; it is > > consistently terrible. The primary reasons for this are obvious: > > > > - Students/practitioners do not memorize the basic features of each > > pulse quality. > > > > - There is little consistency amongst the school clinic supervisors. > > > > - Clinic supervisors won't devote the time to teach pulse in clinic. > > > > - Clinic supervisors, probably because of their own lack of > > competence with the pulse, frequently tell their students that the > > pulse is not important. > > > > - Students do not continue their study by following senior > > practitioners beyond their school experience. > > > > The individual exceptions to this sad litany are few and far between > > - I'd say that about 5% of participants in my seminars show real > > competence with the pulse going in. I imagine this is pretty > > representative of the profession at large. Of course there is a > > desire to learn, and many practitioners are only too aware of their > > shortcomings in this area. If it is to be addressed, this problem has > > to be addressed in the schools. Perhaps Emperor's College is doing > > this, now that it has a pulse zealot in residence (Hi Will!). > > > > Rory > > > > > > > <Attachment missing> > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 jramholz wrote: > Hopefully Leon Hammer's new book on pulse diagnosis will help bring a > new respectablity to pulse diagnosis that Z'ev envisions. Hammer's > work will be the most extensive treatment of pulses (about 800 pages) > and even correct some misconceptions that have continued from the > Chinese literature into our own. Even though I don't use his system, > I don't think there will be any problem conforming to his > descriptions of pulse qualities. Okay, one question for you Shen/Hammer folk. This is an issue I was never able to rectify when being exposed to this system at Emperor's. If you find a heart problem of the western sort with the pulse diagnosis. What do you do about it? Give the patient a bypass surgery??? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Al: While I can't speak for the Hammer system, when you read more complex types of pulse systems the lines between Western and Eastern descriptions of problems become blurred. It's relatively easy to translate from one perspective to the other when you see certain patterns. Americans will change the character of Chinese medicine, just as Western medicine is changing the character of medicine in China. Jim Ramholz , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > jramholz wrote: > > > Hopefully Leon Hammer's new book on pulse diagnosis will help bring a > > new respectablity to pulse diagnosis that Z'ev envisions. Hammer's > > work will be the most extensive treatment of pulses (about 800 pages) > > and even correct some misconceptions that have continued from the > > Chinese literature into our own. Even though I don't use his system, > > I don't think there will be any problem conforming to his > > descriptions of pulse qualities. > > Okay, one question for you Shen/Hammer folk. This is an issue I was > never able to rectify when being exposed to this system at Emperor's. > > If you find a heart problem of the western sort with the pulse > diagnosis. What do you do about it? Give the patient a bypass surgery??? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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