Re:Pulse balancing

[Guest guest]

Zhang Ji's descriptions of evaluating and prognosticating based on the response of the pulse to certain herbal treatments in the Shang Han Lun clearly implies an awareness of pulse balancing methods using herbs.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Without a doubt. . .it is built into the system. pulse+symptom pattern=

medicinals = prescription

 

 

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 12:23 PM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Zhang Ji's descriptions of evaluating and prognosticating based on the

> response of the pulse to certain herbal treatments in the Shang Han Lun

> clearly implies an awareness of pulse balancing methods using herbs.

>

> Will

[Guest guest]

Agreed, my SHL teacher Heiner Fruehauf pointed out to me that tongue

diagnosis was barely developed at the time of the SHL and he perceived

the evolution of CM as proceeding from subtle to gross over the

centuries, beginning with qi gong as the main therapy prior to the nei

jing, then acupuncture based upon pulse and finally herbology based

upon tongue to the modern hybrid of TCM that includes pharmacological

and physiological data as well. While some SHL advocates have

developed and refined the pulse balancing system over the centuries, it

has not been a major thread in TCM herbology and thus mainstream

medicine in China. Much more attention has been paid to longterm

changes in symptoms and tongue for chronic illness insteads of short

term changes in pulse. I think it may be relevant that the nei jing

says that pulse taking is only accurate to assess the root condition of

the body in the morning after rising, that it probably reflects the

events and stresses of the day as one moves in the world. Perhaps this

is one reason why the less varying symptoms and the tongue became the

centerpiece of medicine. In this respect, using pulse balancing may be

more conducive in an in-patient or spa setting rather than in a typical

clinical practice.

 

I also think it is interesting how the evolving subtle to grossness of

chinese medicine in diagnostics follows the scheme of yugas (ages of

humanity according to vedanta). In the earliest yuga, humans were more

attuned to the subtle and thus one healed with the mind alone. Here in

the kali yuga, far removed from spirit, things have gotten more and

more gross, thus we ask questions, give pharmacological doses of

medicine and look at the tongue matter to confirm our dx. The question

that is begged is what method best serves us in this yuga? While the

nei jing describe the era of qi gong, it also states that in the era

when it was written, most people could nolonger be healed that way and

we had to rely on acupuncture. It is interesting that acupuncture

experienced a continual decline in China all the way from the han

through the qing where it had practically disappeared from medical

writings, while herbology trajected a continual ascent to the point

where modern TCM is basically equated with herbology and acupuncture is

considered an adjunct.

 

I would argue that human evolution is a trajectory of more and more

manifestation into the physical until we turn the corner and return to

spirit. That we must fully realize the nature of materiality and ego

before we can transcend both. It is interesting that vedantic scholars

believe that people are more drawn to spiritual realization in the

materialistic kali yuga than in the more subtle eras of the past. this

is because the increasing separation from spirit becomes quite obvious

in our age, while in the earlier ages people had just barely fallen

from grace and didn't even notice the separation. From this

perspective, it seems to me that whether one achieves the best effect

with gross or subtle medicine really depends upon the state of

evolution of the patients one is treating. If people are still locked

in mundane levels of consciousness, bound to ego and materialism, then

they may be more responsive to gross therapy like herbs and

chiropractic,for example. If people are more attuned to spirit, they

may respond better to balancing acupuncture and things like homeopathy.

I would argue that my bias towards herbology and pharmacology is

partially due to the fact that most of my patients are mainstream

materialists with organic diseases. However, I have also had plenty of

patients who are of the other sort and I find them to be sensitive

responders,often getting tremendous benefit from eight extra treatments

alone.

 

I think cultural evolution is the manifestation of the unfolding of the

tao, a process we would do well to respect. To merely look backwards

in history and suggest that some point in the remote past contained the

truth which has been lost is to me like swimming upstream. the present

contains the wisdom of all ages before it and so in some cases, we are

best served by the subtle and some by the gross, including a

pharmacological or physiological approach. I believe Will has actually

expressed this very position when he has discussed the reasons for

choosing various dosages of herbs, addressing processes from emotional

to functional to organic.

 

 

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Without a doubt. . .it is built into the system. pulse+symptom pattern=

> medicinals = prescription

>

>

> On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 12:23 PM, WMorris116@A... wrote:

>

> > Zhang Ji's descriptions of evaluating and prognosticating based on the

> > response of the pulse to certain herbal treatments in the Shang Han Lun

> > clearly implies an awareness of pulse balancing methods using herbs.

> >

> > Will

[Guest guest]

, @i... wrote:

I think it may be relevant that the nei jing says that pulse taking

is only accurate to assess the root condition of the body in the

morning after rising, that it probably reflects the events and

stresses of the day as one moves in the world.

 

 

If the Nei Jing says " only, " then is wrong in this regard. While all

the activity listed will change the pulses, once the patient is

laying calm and relax, you will have an accurate baseline to consider

both root and branch.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, jramholz wrote:

 

>

> If the Nei Jing says " only, " then is wrong in this regard. While all

> the activity listed will change the pulses, once the patient is

> laying calm and relax, you will have an accurate baseline to consider

> both root and branch.

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

Maybe it doesn't say only; in fact, since I have " only " read a

translation, I am not sure what it " says " . Perhaps it is more like

" ideally " . However I don't find the patient is relaxed merely from

lying down.

 

I am assuming both breath and energy in this piece are translations of

qi, as is common in many connotative works I have seen. Maybe someone

can offer a wiseman translation of this section.

 

from Ilza Veith's nonstandard translation of Su Wen, ch. 17, " It [the

pulse] should be executed at dawn when the breath (qi??) of yin has not

yet begun to stir and the breath (qi??) of yang has not yet begun to

diffuse; when food and drink have not yet been taken, when the 12 main

vessels are not yet abundant... when vigor and energy (qi??) are not

yet disturbed- at that particular time one should examine what has

happened to the pulse. "

 

In addition, one had to consider the celestial stem of the first day of

the year in order to know which day to take the pulse. since scholarly

medicine was not a profession at the time of the nei jing and was

generally practiced as a form of filial piety in the family or for

members of the aristocracy, this restriction was not actually

burdensome. It only became so when medicine was to be practiced all

day long on the masses. However, according to Unschuld, 99% of all CM

practiced throughout history was not practiced by literate scholar

doctors. so it is very unclear how much cultural experience there

actually was in the process of sophisticated pulse taking. this goes

for the entire practice of scholarly medicine. It was probably only

during the last 600 years that there was any sizable number of busy

literate doctors with wide access to classical texts. And by then

tongue and symptoms were the predominant form of diagnostic information

in herbal practice, according to Fruehauf. Li shi zhen's pulse study

in the late ming may have been an attempt to revive a fading art, not a

reflection of standard practice. I think it can be safely said that

the bulk of chinese medical experience over the millenia was pragmatic,

symptomatic and disease oriented. Admittedly, this suggests that we

moderns have as much right to draw our own conclusions on things like

theory and pulses as any scholar doctor of the past. So perhaps Jim is

fair in dismissing the nei jing's admonition. But then again, perhaps

not. While I have no doubt that we can establish interrater reliability

in pulse taking amongst similarly trained px, the overwhelmingly

immense diversity in this area of CM sugggests there never was

widespread agreement on this topic.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think we need here a specific quote from a specific chapter, so it can

be checked against the original Chinese. Perhaps conclusions are being

drawn too quickly here, as to what the text says and whether it is

'right or wrong'.

 

 

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 08:36 PM, jramholz wrote:

 

> , @i... wrote:

> I think it may be relevant that the nei jing says that pulse taking

> is only accurate to assess the root condition of the body in the

> morning after rising, that it probably reflects the events and

> stresses of the day as one moves in the world.

>

>

> If the Nei Jing says " only, " then is wrong in this regard. While all

> the activity listed will change the pulses, once the patient is

> laying calm and relax, you will have an accurate baseline to consider

> both root and branch.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, @i... wrote:

Admittedly, this suggests that we moderns have as much right to draw

our own conclusions on things like theory and pulses as any scholar

doctor of the past. So perhaps Jim is fair in dismissing the nei

jing's admonition. But then again, perhaps not.

 

 

:

 

I found a translation of the Nei Jing at home with the Chinese

characters. In the phrase in question, the character 'chang' can mean

normally, commonly, usually, often and, sometimes, invariably. The

condition the text sets is the optimal time for reading pulses. If

translated as " normally " then the translation would be correct

because it doesn't exclude other times. If translated

as " invariably, " in the sense of " only, " then the translation would

be wrong. Simply because we commonly and effectively do so in

contemporary clinical practice.

 

I suspect most of these kinds of admonishments in the classics are

intended for beginning practitioners. Older practitioners would know

the exceptions or the limitations.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Todd wrote

 

" the scheme of yugas (ages of

humanity according to vedanta). "

 

Could you just give a bit of background to this. Indian Ayuveda stuff?

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

And also Todd wrote " However, I have also had plenty of

patients who are of the other sort and I find them to be sensitive

responders,often getting tremendous benefit from eight extra treatments

alone. "

 

Are you reffering to acupuncture using 8 extra ordinary vessels and the

master/coupling point combos, I was wondering if any on the list have

used herbs specifically to address the 8 extras as Li Shi Zhen out lined

in his 8 extra book.

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/3/01 11:29:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes:

 

 

Are you reffering to acupuncture using 8 extra ordinary vessels and the

master/coupling point combos, I was wondering if any on the list have

used herbs specifically to address the 8 extras as Li Shi Zhen out lined

in his 8 extra book.

 

 

Heiko.....I use herbal treaments related to the 8 extras and teach it regularly, especially related to the pulses. I find them appropriate and thinking this way often leads to a different treatment than standard TCM style thinking. My opinion on this is predicated on clinical experience and is diametricly opposed to Bob Flaws commentary preceding his translation of Ye Tian Shi's work.

 

You can find two translations of Ye Tianshi's herbal treatment of the eight extras one at Bluepoppy.com and the other by Yang Tiande at Acupuncture.com

 

Do you have translation of Li's work on this?

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Will

 

I was wondering where did Ye Tian Shi get his list of 8 extra herbs

from. And Yang Tian De as well.

 

I only have bits of pieces of Li Shi Zhen's 8 extra stuff translated and

it is still in hand written form. I do not have the herb lists .

Giovanni in his gyno book also mentions herbs that travel/treat the 8

extra channels, I was wondering where this list also came from. Was it

from the classics or modern experience or just fitting it into a zang fu

analysis.

 

Giovanni says shi chang pu is for the the yin qiao mai (yin springing

vessel) but in Li Shi Zhen's ben cao gang mu he says its for the chong

and ren, ie cold problems there .

 

I found interesting in Li Shi Zhen's 8 extra book that the yin qiao mai

is THE vessel assosiated with qi gong.

 

I also like some of his statements like " doctors who do not know

[understand] the 8 extra vessels are just grappling in the dark regards

diagnosis "

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

Heiko: I was wondering where did Ye Tian Shi get his list of 8 extra

herbs from. And Yang Tian De as well.

 

Will: Yang Tiande translated Ye Tianshi, he loves that work. That is

his source.

 

Heiko: I also like some of his statements like " doctors who do not

know understand] the 8 extra vessels are just grappling in the dark

regards diagnosis "

>

> Heiko

 

I'm inclined to agree....with bias. It is a bias based on clinical

experience and classical references. Please let us know what you come

up with there.

 

Animal products are an essential compnent of accessing the 8 extra

from a medicinal point of view. That opinion from early musings has

been corroborated by Ye Tianshi.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Will: Yang Tiande translated Ye Tianshi, he loves that work. That is

his source.

 

Can you tell me who they were and what era?

 

The animal products you refer to are ??? eg beef intestines etc or

exotic stuff like anteater scales .

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/01 12:01:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes:

 

 

Will: Yang Tiande translated Ye Tianshi, he loves that work. That is

his source.

 

Can you tell me who they were and what era?

 

The animal products you refer to are ??? eg beef intestines etc or

exotic stuff like anteater scales .

 

 

Heiko:

Yang Tiande is a contemporary practitioner who supervises at our school clinic. His father was certified as one of 500 most famous doctors and bearers of lineage. Dr. Yang is well known for his mastery of Shang Han Lun, and especially acupuncture. His father taught many of the professors at Emperor's. However, Dr Yang does not teach in classroom settings.

We are also extremely fortunate to have another son of one of the 500 most famous doctors and bearers of lineage....Dr Gu Qingnai. His specialty is breast cancer and dermatological conditions. Dr. Gu does teach.

 

It is amazing to me that senior practitioners like these two are willing to teach American students in a master's program. In China, only the equivalent of doctorate and post doctorate students can gain such access.

 

Ye Tianshi lived from 1667-1746 in southeastern China. The book used for translations is Ye Tian Shi Zhen Zhi Da Quan (A Great Collection of Ye Tian-shi's Diagnoses & Treatments).

Just go here, Bob Flaws translated several pieces by Ye, the piece on Ban Xia Xie Xin Tang is also very interesting. I have used that method since the early nineties:

http://bluepoppy.com/press/download/press_articles.cfm?freearticle=articles/

If you go to the recommended sites, all the animal ingredients are present.

I often use these generalized associations: Yang tonics-Du; Yin Tonics-Ren; Blood tonics and movers-Chong; Qi tonics and movers-Dai.

 

Take your animal products from these categories. Extrapolate out for the coupled vessels. Look at what Ye Tianshi did. After this, you will have a fairly cogent and viable clinical model.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Thanks Will

 

I will look into those sites and get back to you.

 

I also recieved an email from Giovanni, and the list of herbs in his

gyno book for the 8 extras is from LI Shi Zhen.

 

Heiko